Ethan please help!

warnerwh · « **on:** 12 Jan 2006, 04:41 am »

Ethan: Would you take a look at this and tell us what you think:
20/-4/-6
25/1/0
31.5/3/2
40/-9/-10
50/-12/-11
63/-12/-11
80/5/3.5
100/6/3.5
125/1/2
160/1/2.5
200/-1/-1
250/-3/-9
315/-5/-6
400/-1/-6
500/-10/-11
630/-1/-4
800/-5/-4
1000/-3/1
1250/5/4
1600/0/4
2000/-6/-3
2500/6/-10
3150/0/-12
4000/0/-10
5000/5/0
6300/-4/0
8000/6/3
10k/1/0
12.5k/0/-9
16k/-10/-5
20k/-3/-4
The room is 14'-4" x 17'-5". There's an alcove in the left front corner that is 4'-11" wide by 1'-8" deep, making the front wall 16' wide.
There's 8 of the 2x4x4" GIK traps in the room. One in each corner, one behind each speaker and one on each side wall at the reflection points. They are not mounted, just leaned up against the wall for now. Floor is carpet and pad over concrete. There's also have eighth nerve corner treatments in all the corners.

There's a 65" RPTV in between the speakers which I'm sure does not help. The back of the speakers are out 30" from the back wall and about a foot in front of the TV. They are 26" from the side walls and 7' apart. Seating position is 10'.
Thank You

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #1 on:** 12 Jan 2006, 04:46 pm »

Warner,

> Would you take a look at this and tell us what you think <

First, the data you showed is not useful because it's at third octave intervals, and misses completely the true extent of the peaks and nulls at low frequencies. Then again, even high-resolution frequency response data is not that useful for a variety of reasons. (Though it can help you to determine if bass traps and other treatment has improved things or not.)

> There's 8 of the 2x4x4" GIK traps in the room ... There's also have eighth nerve corner treatments in all the corners. <

Who's room is this, yours? A friend's?

As much as I like helping people - and I plan to continue! - this is becoming an increasing problem for me. There are now at least three companies selling cheap knock-offs of RealTraps products. But the guys who sell these traps are not experienced with acoustics, so they can't offer any support or guidance beyond "stick 'em in corners and hope for the best." So people who bought these cheap imitations are now coming to me for support and placement advice. Again, I like helping people with acoustics, and I don't expect people I help to buy my stuff! But when someone does buy, but from another company, it's hard for me to resist sending them back to the company they bought from for advice and support.

--Ethan

miklorsmith · « **Reply #2 on:** 12 Jan 2006, 04:55 pm »

Looks like a perfect candidate for digital equalization - right up your alley!

zybar · « **Reply #3 on:** 12 Jan 2006, 05:17 pm »

Quote from: Ethan Winer

As much as I like helping people - and I plan to continue! - this is becoming an increasing problem for me. There are now at least three companies selling cheap knock-offs of RealTraps products. But the guys who sell these traps are not experienced with acoustics, so they can't offer any support or guidance beyond "stick 'em in corners and hope for the best." So people who bought these cheap imitations are now coming to me for support and placement advice. Again, I like helping people with acoustics, and I don't expect people I help to buy my stuff! But when someone does buy, but from another company, it's hard for me to resist sending them back to the company they bought from for advice and support.

--Ethan

Understood Ethan.

I appreciate your posts, but know that you are also running a business.

George

warnerwh · « **Reply #4 on:** 12 Jan 2006, 09:59 pm »

Ethan: My apologies. You are correct. I have actually discussed this with my friend and told him that he should return these if at all possible and buy yours. I've recommended your products as they appear to be the best for the money that I've found. Your help is appreciated. Thank You

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #5 on:** 12 Jan 2006, 10:20 pm »

Warner,

No need to apologize. I sort of bring this on myself by trying to be everywhere and trying to help everyone with their acoustics. When I started doing this a little more than three years ago my main goal was to introduce people to the benefits of acoustic treatment, not present myself as an expert to help me sell stuff. And that's still my main motive. Room treatment is arguably more important than anything else, and there's still a long road ahead to get "the masses" to understand this. I recognize that bass traps are not cool or sexy, but they'll do more for someone's audio system than any new piece of gear. As long as audiophile magazines continue to fawn all over the latest $20,000 boutique gear while ignoring the importance of room treatment, I will continue my crusade.

> I've recommended your products as they appear to be the best for the money that I've found. Your help is appreciated. Thank You <

No, thank you.

--Ethan

warnerwh · « **Reply #6 on:** 12 Jan 2006, 10:37 pm »

You are on the right crusade Ethan. I keep telling people how much more important room treatment is than a new electronics or cables too. Sue Kraft actually stated this fact in this month's Absolute Sound. It's unfortunate that the knowledge of a good acoustical environment has not been stressed more in the press. I'd go so far as to say it would be better to use your present speakers than move up in the line until you treat your room properly.

JLM · « **Reply #7 on:** 14 Jan 2006, 02:17 am »

But where does a listener like me start?

I've got about $3000 into equipment and my budget for room treatments is under $1000.

IMO this is a reasonable breakdown, but that only buys 4 RealTrap panels.

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #8 on:** 14 Jan 2006, 02:49 pm »

JLM,

> I've got about $3000 into equipment and my budget for room treatments is under $1000. <

That's a fine start. I disagree with "formulas" that attempt to dictate what percentage of gear should be invested where. Like the audio salespeople who try to get you to spend 15 percent of your budget on wires. I'm not suggesting that you're proposing a ratio! Just pointing out the folly in that logic. I consider my audio system state of the art or at least very close, and I have mostly inexpensive electronics, excellent but not expensive speakers, and 38 RealTraps. Okay, sure, I own the company.

But even at my cost I spent more on the panels than everything else combined. (Discounting my big screen TV.)

I assure you that even four MiniTraps will make a bigger difference than almost any other "gear" you could get.

--Ethan

Glenn K · « **Reply #9 on:** 14 Jan 2006, 09:43 pm »

Quote from: warnerwh

Ethan: My apologies. You are correct. I have actually discussed this with my friend and told him that he should return these if at all possible and buy yours. I've recommended your products as they appear to be the best for the money that I've found. Your help is appreciated. Thank You

As I am very disappointed in Ethan's response and trust me when I say that he does know a lot, but so do we.. Also we have a great product we are very proud of and it is not a knock off of Real Traps..
If you would please contact me so I can help you out with your room..

Mr Winer,
As smart as you are, maybe you should have been this way to me on the phone TWO HOURS AGO.. Yes folks I though he was my friend..

Glenn

eric the red · « **Reply #10 on:** 14 Jan 2006, 10:01 pm »

"Mr Winer,
As smart as you are, maybe you should have been this way to me on the phone TWO HOURS AGO.. Yes folks I though he was my friend..

Glenn"

Since no one but Ethan knows what you are talking about here and that Ethan didn't mention any names in his response to Warner, one wonders if this matter might be best resolved in private seeing that this is your first AC post and that you are one of Ethan's competitors?

zybar · « **Reply #11 on:** 14 Jan 2006, 11:29 pm »

Quote from: Glenn K

As I am very disappointed in Ethan's response and trust me when I say that he does know a lot, but so do we.. Also we have a great product we are very proud of and it is not a knock off of Real Traps..
If you would please contact me so I can help you out with your room..

Mr Winer,
As smart as you are, maybe you should have been this way to me on the phone TWO HOURS AGO.. Yes folks I though he was my friend..

Glenn

Ethan never mentioned your product, he made a general statement.

I also know thta Ethan would not start posting about a private phone conversation. Unless you want to potentially hurt your reputation here (with your whopping single post), you should be careful what you say or hint at. Ethan is a stand-up guy and has been an assest on this site.

George

hmen · « **Reply #12 on:** 15 Jan 2006, 01:00 am »

Quote from: JLM

But where does a listener like me start?

I've got about $3000 into equipment and my budget for room treatments is under $1000.

IMO this is a reasonable breakdown, but that only buys 4 RealTrap panels.

I started with 4 Realtrap panels and 2 of the smaller (2' x 2') panels. The difference it made in my system was significant. I never believed the old mantra that the room is 50% of the equation but I do now. 4 panels is a good starting point, you can always add more.

Glenn K · « **Reply #13 on:** 15 Jan 2006, 01:02 am »

Quote from: zybar

Ethan never mentioned your product, he made a general statement.

I also know thta Ethan would not start posting about a private phone conversation. Unless you want to potentially hurt your reputation here (with your whopping single post), you should be careful what you say or hint at. Ethan is a stand-up guy and has been an assest on this site.

George

Hey guys the person is asking about our product and the way I read it is he is talking about us... I really do not want to start a fight nor anything else, but if I feel personally attacked then I think it is ok to speak up..
If Ethan was not talking about me or my company then I am sorry.. Lets wait to here from my Ethan..
BTW, I think of Ethan as a pretty stand up guy also.. So you can understand why I was floored by his comments..

Glenn

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #14 on:** 15 Jan 2006, 03:30 pm »

Hi Glenn,

Welcome to the forum.

> if I feel personally attacked then I think it is ok to speak up. <

That was certainly not meant as an attack on you personally. But it really is a growing problem for me generally that people want my expertise to help them with a competitor's product. I even get people calling on my toll-free number asking for free advice. Mostly they want free consulting for their DIY projects, but a few times it's been for help with another company's product. I get many more such requests by email - almost daily - even though all of my non-RealTraps articles clearly state that I prefer to answer in the public forums.

This is not only a problem for me. One time in a forum (not here) a poster suggested to someone that they use Auralex's free room advice service to spec out what foam they'd need, then buy from Foam By Mail. I was floored! It especially bothered me that nobody else piped up to explain how unfair that is.

--Ethan

Glenn K · « **Reply #15 on:** 15 Jan 2006, 04:07 pm »

>That was certainly not meant as an attack on you personally. But it really is a growing problem for me generally that people want my expertise to help them with a competitor's product. I even get people calling on my toll-free number asking for free advice. Mostly they want free consulting for their DIY projects, but a few times it's been for help with another company's product. I get many more such requests by email - almost daily - even though all of my non-RealTraps articles clearly state that I prefer to answer in the public forums. <

Glad to hear you are not throwing me into the bunch, who ever they are, so I will leave it at that.
I certainly see your point about people calling you up and it really is up to you on how you handle it. As you, I get the same calls and depending on the phone call I handle it in different ways. As for the forums, I don't care if they bought yours or built there own. Help is help and that is what we should all do.. If you feel jaded if someone buys XYZ then asks you a question about it then I would recommend telling them they should contact the dealer.. That is your choice and I respect you for any choice you make..

Enough said on this...

Sorry guys for my first post being a crazy man..

samplesj · « **Reply #16 on:** 15 Jan 2006, 04:46 pm »

Quote from: Glenn K

As for the forums, I don't care if they bought yours or built there own. Help is help and that is what we should all do..

You might want to look at Ethan's other posts here and on AudioAsylum and the other forum he helps moderate (can't remember the name offhand) . He is helping. I don't think I've seen nearly as many helpful posts from GIK representatives so that statement is a bit odd (pot calling the kettle black).

Glenn K · « **Reply #17 on:** 15 Jan 2006, 06:58 pm »

Quote from: samplesj

Quote from: Glenn K
As for the forums, I don't care if they bought yours or built there own. Help is help and that is what we should all do..

You might want to look at Ethan's other posts here and on AudioAsylum and the other forum he helps moderate (can't remember the name offhand) . He is helping. I don't think I've seen nearly as many helpful posts from GIK representatives so that statement is a bit odd (pot calling the kettle black).

Help me God..

You are right on this forum I am new and the only reason I come on was because I received emails from other guys from other forums that Ethan was "digging in".. You are right I have not helped anyone on this forum.. But if it is ok with you I would like to start over and help in any way I can...
Like I said guys I am sorry to go off like I did.. Ethan and I have talked and I still have just as much respect for him (and anyone else may I add) as I always did...
OK??

Glenn

zybar · « **Reply #18 on:** 15 Jan 2006, 08:00 pm »

Welcome Glenn.

I agree that everybody will be better served by moving forward.

I look forward to your posts about room acoustics.

George