Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?

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Sparks

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Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
« on: 10 Jan 2006, 12:48 am »
On another forum there is a sub-forum for gear costing > $20k.
A topic was posted asking for opinions on overpriced gear.
I posted that I thought Wilson Audio was\is overpriced.
I never said they were crap or anything, just overpriced and I honestly feel that way.
I've heard X-2s and the WATT\Puppy, properly set up etc.

Someone who owns Wilsons took exception, looked at my profile there and gave me
a jab with rolleyes because I listed Salk speakers(soon). I don't have them yet so I qualified it.

Actually it didn't bother me too much but I thought the guy was a bit immature and condescending.
I guess it raises this question, Why do quality products, no matter where they come from,
garner so little respect or even consideration among people who are supposed top be savvy\experienced about these things.

Believe me I'm no rocket scientist but after I heard 1801s and some other kit\direct market speakers
I was convinced of the value & outright superiority of the products.
Maybe this is pointless but I still find it mystifying.

jermmd

Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
« Reply #1 on: 10 Jan 2006, 01:05 am »
Sparks,

You know how I feel about the Salk speakers and I can tell you with certainty that they are at least comparable to very expensive speakers like Wilson. Wilson represents the prototype overpriced overhyped speaker. The AVS member who rolled his eyes has a huge amount invested in his speakers and takes it somewhat personally when people disrespect his Wilsons. If you had >$100k costing speakers, you wouldn't want people making disparaging comments about them either. He wasn't really commenting about the Salks (which he has never heard), he was rolling his eyes at "another Wilson basher." It was the $20k+ forum afterall and he is one of the primaries over there.

And despite that great bargains like Salk exist, you generally get what you pay for.

Marbles

Re: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
« Reply #2 on: 10 Jan 2006, 01:08 am »
Quote from: Sparks
On another forum there is a sub-forum for gear costing > $20k.
A topic was posted asking for opinions on overpriced gear.
I posted that I thought Wilson Audio was\is overpriced.
I never said they were crap or anything, just overpriced and I honestly feel that way.
I've heard X-2s and the WATT\Puppy, properly set up etc.

Someone who owns Wilsons took exception, looked at my profile there and gave me
a jab with rolleyes because I listed Salk speakers(soon). I don't have them yet so I qualified it.
 ...


Guy spends lots of money to get immeadiate respect, you spend MUCH less, get better sound and better made and better looking cabinets.  If I were you, I wouldn't be insulted...I'd laugh at his ignorance, and your forsight in buying Salks.

Very few people know about Jim's products and the fact that each pair takes a pretty long time to gestate means that there won't be that many pairs out there even after a few years...and he doesn't advertise where most audiophiles would even hear about him.

It's just a case of your Wilson guy being ignorant.  His loss, your gain  :wink:

zybar

Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
« Reply #3 on: 10 Jan 2006, 01:09 am »
Exactly!

 :lol:

JoshK

Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
« Reply #4 on: 10 Jan 2006, 01:14 am »
my d**k is bigger than yours....same mentality.  Very weak correlation with good sound and higher prices above, say, $1k.

ted_b

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Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
« Reply #5 on: 10 Jan 2006, 01:19 am »
Quote from: JoshK
my d**k is bigger than yours....same mentality..........


Josh,
From the look of your avatar, I'd say I doubt it...... :lol:   JK


At best this hobby/affliction is wrought with diminishing returns, especially if you don't find good value in the first place.  The Wilson folks buy Wilson because they can; and they very much want you to know that.  In fact, even if they are spectacular speakers, (and I've heard them sound good, not orgasmic, just good) the last $50k or so is worth 1%, and that's giving them a huge benefit of the doubt.

GHM

Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
« Reply #6 on: 10 Jan 2006, 01:20 am »
Looks like Marbles has said it all. It's amazing how ignorant having large amounts of money to blow makes some folks. You could ask some of them what type of crossover networks , drivers or anything else pertaining to the design of these speakers. Most couldn't tell you squat! :lol:

Who in the hell buys a car without knowing the options ??

Wilson owners of course!!! :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

JoshK

Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
« Reply #7 on: 10 Jan 2006, 01:22 am »
of course you could say the same thing about people who snub their nose at a DIY design versus a commercial design costing X times as much when they know little or nothing about what goes into each.  Looks aren't everything after all this is an *audio* hobby.

ekovalsky

Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
« Reply #8 on: 10 Jan 2006, 01:31 am »
Last year I auditioned the MAXX2 and I didn't think it was a bad value at all.  And this is coming from someone who has criticized the value and sound quality of many previous Wilson speakers.  The cabinets no doubt cost a fortune to build, and the sound quality was awesome.

At about 3x the MSRP of the MAXX2, the X2 is pretty hard to explain.  Obviously it is a statement product that carries a very high price tag to maintain status and exclusivity.  This isn't any different from the top systems of other manufacturers -- Martin Logan, Kharma, VSA, Nola, JM Lab to name a few.  The good thing about the poor intrinsic value of such speakers it that they eventually surface for resale at small fractions of MSRP :mrgreen:

I would guess a high value speaker, like your Salks, would fetch 75% of more MSRP upon resale.

Bill Baker

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Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
« Reply #9 on: 10 Jan 2006, 01:34 am »
These are the same type of people that purchase Porsche 930 Slant Nose. They do it because they can. I am in no way knocking the esoteric gear out there and do respect people who can afford and enjoy it.

 I wrote some words about the difference between Audiophiles and Music lovers (and their systems) but I don't think this is the proper place to post it as I would not want to intrude on Jim's forum.

 All I can say right now is that being a speaker designer from way back, I agree with the thoughts posted so far :mrgreen:

zybar

Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
« Reply #10 on: 10 Jan 2006, 01:39 am »
Quote from: Response Audio
These are the same type of people that purchase Porsche 930 Slant Nose. They do it because they can. I am in no way knocking the esoteric gear out there and do respect people who can afford and enjoy it.

 I wrote some words about the difference between Audiophiles and Music lovers (and their systems) but I don't think this is the proper place to post it as I would not want to intrude on Jim's forum.

 All I can say right now is that being a speaker designer from way back, I agree with the thoughts posted so far :mrgreen:


Post away Bill.

George

Bill Baker

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Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
« Reply #11 on: 10 Jan 2006, 01:42 am »
IF this is out of line, let me know and I will remove it Jim. (It mentions my company).


Audiophile or Music Lover - Where do you fit in

HOW NOT TO LISTEN TO MUSIC
(at least my views on the subject)

Okay.....where to start? It is my opinion that audio consumers fall within one of two categories, "Audiophiles" or "Music lovers". Let me explain.

 An audiophile seeks a system capable of portraying each individual piece of information separately as if it existed in it's own place in space and time. This goes much further than simply being able to distinguish individual instruments. It is my opinion that a system of this kind does not have the proper "blending" as you would experience at a live venue. There is a perfection in center imaging usually with an eight inch sweet spot, more emphasized detail than one cares to hear and the most unrealistic bass that I have never experienced at a live event. The problem? Move even slightly out of that sweet spot position and the whole illusion disappears. Overall, I find these types of systems dry, clinical and plain boring to listen to for any extended period of time. Yes, they do have the utmost level of detail, resolution and dynamics but simply do not sound "real" to me. No texture, no body, no realism.

This is what we have been brainwashed to believe as "accurate" musical reproduction by hi-fi rags and 'politically' run review sites. These systems can find, all to easily, any minute flaw in the recording, how fun is that? We already know 99% of all recordings are flawed one way or another. Who cares. Who wants to buy a system that makes only 1% of our recordings enjoyable? Yes, they may be theoretically correct in terms of measurements but we don't listen to measurements. Just look at how many reviewers and over paid marketing agents have coaxed people into buying overly analytical crap for ridiculous amounts of money, only to wind up selling it within 3 months because it didn't engage them in the MUSIC!! Duh. It is this high turnover that keeps the super exotic product manufacturers in business. Ask yourself this question, "do you want to listen to your components or your music"?

On the other hand we have the music lover, that's me, who focuses attention, not on a single piece of data within a recording, but to the presentation as a whole. Yes, you can hear all the information in the recording, the difference is in the delivery. The music should get inside of you and touch your soul. A good music system should provide you with every aspect of the recording but not "dissect" it and throw it at you in pieces. Response Audio is all about this type of consumer. I choose to hear my music the way it was meant to be heard, as close to a natural event as possible. I don't need or want an eight inch sweet "sweet spot". After all, what about those of us who actually have friends that we want to share our musical experiences with. "Okay, move over, it's my turn to listen". Give'me a break. I want a system that does not call to attention itself rather disappear allowing the music to flow. It should be smooth, enjoyable and non-fatiguing over long periods of time. Has a good center image that more than one person can enjoy at one time and most importantly, simply allows the music to get inside of me. Music is all about emotion. If you want to walk away talking about how perfect your components are, buy an audiophile system, if you want to walk away understanding what the artist was feeling and trying to portray, put together a music system that allows the music to get inside of you. That's what Response Audio is all about! Emotion!

I can promise you that most enjoyable music systems will not measure perfectly but if they give us pleasure in our musical ventures, that's all that matters. Yes? This is not to say that systems sold, designed or modified by Response Audio do not measure very good, just not analytically perfect.

I realize many will not agree with these thoughts and they may even irritate some of you but please realize that these are my personal opinions and preferences only. I only want to allow others to understand the philosophy of Response audio and how our systems are meant to be understood. I mean no disrespect to the Audiophile community and the companies that cater to them. After all, my personal quote..........

"Build your system for yourself, not the critics"

skrivis

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Re: Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
« Reply #12 on: 10 Jan 2006, 01:59 am »
Quote from: Sparks
On another forum there is a sub-forum for gear costing > $20k.
A topic was posted asking for opinions on overpriced gear.
I posted that I thought Wilson Audio was\is overpriced.
I never said they were crap or anything, just overpriced and I honestly feel that way.
I've heard X-2s and the WATT\Puppy, properly set up etc.

Someone who owns Wilsons took exception, looked at my profile there and gave me
a jab with rolleyes because I listed Salk speakers(soon). I don't have them yet so I qualified it.
 ...


Should have told him he's lucky... if I had been responding to that question in a forum for $20K+ gear I'd have said, "all of it." :)

Any gear costing that much money better come with a good string quartet for my living room. :)

Seriously, you could hire musicians to perform in your living room quite a few times before you'd eat up the thousands of dollars you would have overpaid for those boutique Wilson speakers.

Hell, I could buy season tickets for Severance Center and hire a sedan chair to carry me into the hall for that much money. Just think how impressive _that_ would be! :)

Sparks

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Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
« Reply #13 on: 10 Jan 2006, 02:09 am »
Quote
I want a system that does not call to attention itself rather disappear allowing the music to flow. It should be smooth, enjoyable and non-fatiguing over long periods of time. Has a good center image that more than one person can enjoy at one time and most importantly, simply allows the music to get inside of me.

Duh! :)
Gee, I didn't expect such quick responses let alone such erudite ones.
I've made a mental note not to visit that > $20k forum any further as it is pretty much predictable & tired.....

Sorry, took a break to listen to the music coming from the other room.
Wow, I don't even my Salk's yet and I can still get immersed.
I go swimming, water run all over me

Bill Baker

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Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
« Reply #14 on: 10 Jan 2006, 02:18 am »
Okay, I feel I have to make a few more statements before responses on my post start coming though.

 My finding are "based" on the products and habits of listeners and not always about the money paid for these products. I have to admit that there are some truly exceptional products that I still find justifiable at their high price tags and would purchase myself if funds were not an issue.
I have 4 kids, a house, an [expensive] wife, etc. and still drive around in a beat up 88 S-10 Blazer.

 I don't want anyone to believe I do not appreciate some of the higher price gear out there. After all, I would give your left leg for some of the Audio Note amps :lol:

RIKMEISTER

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all the money i spent is not worth it?
« Reply #15 on: 10 Jan 2006, 02:49 am »
you mean the 60,00 i spent on my speakers for my aston martin was not worth it.  Oh my god, hehehe.

DMurphy

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Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
« Reply #16 on: 10 Jan 2006, 04:35 pm »
Quote from: Response Audio
Okay, I feel I have to make a few more statements before responses on my post start coming though.

I guess I would take a little exception to the notion that "audiophile" speakers measure well, at least within a narrow window, but "musical" speakers won't.  That's probably an overstatement of your position, but it does describe a certain school of thought.  I'm fascinated with speaker design both from a technical standpoint and a musical stanpoint.  I've spent a good part of my life playing in various orchestras, and listening to them--and to me the whole notion of having Mozart emerge relatively unscathed from an MDF box is a major modern miracle.  But how well he emerges depends on solid scientific principles.  If a speaker sounds dry and irritating, there is probably something wrong with the power response.  On the other hand, if the meaured performance has obvious flaws, you will hear them as colorations, even though you might enjoy some of them--at least some of the time on some music.  The real unsettled issue, IMHO, is just where the highs should be voiced.  I try to design speakers that can be adjusted (particularly down) in the highs without compromising driver integration and phase relationships.  But I have yet to be happy with a design--mine or anyone else's--that has basic flaws in the measurements.

ctviggen

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Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
« Reply #17 on: 10 Jan 2006, 04:50 pm »
While I have always liked Wilsons, they are over priced.  What are the Watt Puppies up to now?  17k?  

As for speaker measurements, I like them (though I don't know what a power response is).  But I think like anything else, they have to be understood to be used.  For instance, I'm reading a book called "The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook."  In it, the author references a figure and states that the figure obviously indicates an improved transient response (as compared to another close-box design).  Darn if I could figure out why that figure indicated an improved transient response.  So, speaker measurements are like statistics:  great in the hands of someone who knows something and dangerous or wrong in the hands of someone who doesn't.

ctviggen

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Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
« Reply #18 on: 10 Jan 2006, 05:14 pm »
As for the amplitude frequency response of Wilsons, here's an entire thread arguing about the same:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=f16e20b37c7e0fdf36e27c385bc5fcd5&threadid=69687&highlight=

skrivis

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Should I be Insulted? & Why No Respect?
« Reply #19 on: 10 Jan 2006, 05:39 pm »
Quote from: ctviggen
While I have always liked Wilsons, they are over priced.  What are the Watt Puppies up to now?  17k?  

As for speaker measurements, I like them (though I don't know what a power response is).  But I think like anything else, they have to be understood to be used.  For instance, I'm reading a book called "The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook."  In it, the author references a figure and states that the figure obviously indicates an improved transient response (as compared to another close-box design).  Darn if  ...


Frequency response is measured on axis, like right in front of the speakers. Power response is a series of measurements at different points and shows how the speaker plays into the room, so to speak.

I ran across various stuff on the net via Google, but here's a short description that should give you a start: http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/posting.php?mode=quote&p=218380