Help with ETF/sound card (long, with graphs)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 1683 times.

ctviggen

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 5251
Help with ETF/sound card (long, with graphs)
« on: 7 Jan 2006, 05:35 pm »
I thought for my own edification I'd use my ETF program, which has been languishing in relative obscurity due to my own time constraints, to analyze the effects of my Realtraps and my ASC subtraps.  I'd planned on taking all my traps out of the room, performing low and "high" (i.e., 20hz to 20khz) frequency response tests, putting in some traps, performing more tests, etc.  However, I'm having problems creating valid tests and would like not only help but also to provide information about ETF for those who are interested.  

Before proceeding further, some background is in order.  Early last year, I purchased ETF and performed a number of tests, including tests with/without my stereo subs, tests at multiple speaker locations, right/left speaker only tests, etc.  At the time, my computer was in the same room as my home theater.  I noticed at the time that 60Hz was getting into the measurement.  I could see this because the low frequency spectral decay plot showed a 60Hz peak that never lost magnitude over a second (the maximum length of time ETF will plot). I contacted the maker of ETF and he recommended either I purchase the PSD (power spectral density) add on or a USB sound card.  I decided to purchase the PSD option.  Then, Spring came along, my bike riding season began, then Fall came along and my winterization plan for my house kicked into gear.  Now, I finally had some time to revisit ETF.

Prior to performing new measurements, I decided to order a USB sound card and also borrow a laptop so that I'd be completely "off the grid" so to speak.  My setup (or is it "set up" -- I can never remember) is as follows.  I'm using a Behringer ECM8000 microphone, without adding in a microphone calibration file.  I'm using a Rolls Mini-mic preamp, MP13 with phantom power for the mic.  I'm using a Creative MP3+ USB sound card, recommended by ETF.  I also have my entire HT system plugged into two outlets that are on a dedicated line (save my SVS sub, but all subs are turned off for the tests shown).  In order to reduce the possibility of a ground loop, I plugged the mic preamp and computer into which the same outlets as the HT is plugged.  I did have to use extension cords, however.  I have the mic on a stand and positioned where my head would be when I sit (on a futon) to listen.  I use a balanced IC from the mic to the mic preamp and unbalanced connections after that.  During testing, I hide behind the futon and have all testing equipment behind the futon.    

My testing technique is to use the calibration and level check functions of ETF and then perform an LF or HF test.  For any test, I pull out the AC power to the laptop.  And it turns out that I have to pull the power from the laptop because with the laptop on AC, every move of the mouse can be heard through the speakers and there's a lot of noise.  Unfortunately, the battery in this laptop loses power very quickly, so I have to plug the power in once a measurement is performed.

The first problem?  I'm not really off the grid even with a USB sound card and running on battery power for the laptop.  The following is a spectral decay plot of the LF response, without using the PSD function of ETF:



As you can see, there's 60Hz leaking in somewhere, not to mention a ton of other noise.  So, I ran a PSD test:



This is better!  However, there are still quite long decay times, considering I have 2 mondotraps, 2 ASC subtraps, 2 HF minitraps at the first reflection points, 2 microtraps positioned between the speakers, and 2 4-foot soffit/stand traps.  Granted, the LF of the minitraps/microtraps probably isn't that good, but I'd expect better than this.  

Another problem is the HF response:



The blue curve is both speakers taken today and the green curve is the right speaker taken at "position 1" when I was testing positions of the speakers.  Position 1 is basically the same position as I have now.  The Position 1 curve was taken many moons ago, but I haven't changed anything in the interim (though I did install a midbass upgrade on my RM40s, but this wouldn't affect the high end).  Why the disparity?

Looking at the impulse response:



Ah, here's a problem.  The blue curve is the current impulse response of the system, and it's bad.  There's a ton of ringing prior to the main peak and a lot of ringing thereafter.  What these translate into are high frequency components (although it's unclear when ETF begins its analysis -- does it cut off the information prior to the first peak?).  The green curve shows the response from the old "Position 1" measurement.  Note a dramatic decrease in ringing both before and after the main peak.  

One thing I did not do was perform a test of the sound card, as I figured since ETF recommends this sound card, it should be fine.  Perhaps that was a mistake.  

In short, here are my problems:

1) What's causing the ringing?  Is there a filter setting on the sound card or some other setting that can cause this?  My HT system is basically the same as before.  

2) What's causing 60Hz/noise in the LF response?  I have a USB sound card and a laptop running on battery power.  Is it possible to have a ground loop?

3) When I do an LF (sweep) test, I have to crank up the power for the mic amp and the output of my preamp (to "reference" level) and up the input of the line in on the sound card near maximum.  Is this typical?  I mean, the sound is loud -- way loud.  

4) When I do "3)" above, this means that I then have to adjust the levels back down when I do an HF MLS measurement.  What this means is that I won't be able to do both HF and LF measurements at the same time.  What I'd hoped to do was perform both measurements with all traps, remove one set of traps, perform both measurements again, etc.  Because I can only perform HF OR LF at one time, this will take double the time to do.  Is this a limitation of the measurement system or is there a better way?

Ethan Winer

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 1459
  • Audio expert
    • RealTraps - The acoustic treatment experts
Re: Help with ETF/sound card (long, with graphs)
« Reply #1 on: 7 Jan 2006, 07:21 pm »
> I'm having problems creating valid tests <

Yeah, no kidding. I have no idea what's going on, but obviously something is wrong. Is there any chance the sound card loop-back is not connected correctly?

--Ethan

ctviggen

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 5251
Help with ETF/sound card (long, with graphs)
« Reply #2 on: 7 Jan 2006, 07:40 pm »
Hi Ethan,

There could be, but I followed the directions in ETF -- left ouput gets looped back into left input; right output goes to speaker(s); and right input comes from the microphone.  Perhaps I should bring the system when I come over?  Sadly, I have to give the laptop back today and won't get it back for at least a week.

bpape

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 4465
  • I am serious and don't call my Shirley
    • Sensible Sound Solutions
Help with ETF/sound card (long, with graphs)
« Reply #3 on: 7 Jan 2006, 11:45 pm »
Are you using an external mic pre?  Are you connected to the line ins or mic ins?

Looks to me like a simple ground loop hum but where is anyone's guess.

mgalusha

Help with ETF/sound card (long, with graphs)
« Reply #4 on: 8 Jan 2006, 03:41 am »
Bob,

I had a similar ringing problem with ETF a couple of years ago and I think (memory is not real strong here) that I had to change the sampling rate of the soundcard. I think it was set to 44.1KHz and I had to change it to 48.KHz. (could have been the other way around) Don't know if this is your problem but worth checking. Note my ringing problem was with the loopback connected to calibrate the card.

Mike

Ethan Winer

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 1459
  • Audio expert
    • RealTraps - The acoustic treatment experts
Help with ETF/sound card (long, with graphs)
« Reply #5 on: 8 Jan 2006, 05:40 pm »
Bob,

> Perhaps I should bring the system when I come over? <'

Of course - you are welcome to bring anything you'd like when you visit.

--Ethan

ctviggen

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 5251
Help with ETF/sound card (long, with graphs)
« Reply #6 on: 9 Jan 2006, 02:10 pm »
Thanks for the replies.  I had to give up the laptop, but I'll be getting it back soon to revisit this.  I am using the line in and line out of a USB sound card (and these are specific line in/out RCA connections -- one RCA connection for each of in/out and for line in/line out).  I think you're right about the sound card causing the ringing -- it's the only thing that cause it, as my system is set up to directly pass the input signal to my amps, only passing through an analog volume stage.  I'll have to look at the settings for the sound card, but the drivers are all installed on the laptop, which I don't have right now.

As for the 60Hz leakage, I think there's only two ways for it to be getting in.  One is through the power supply for the microphone preamp.   If I had an oscilloscope, I could determine this easily.  Without an oscilloscope, I'm not sure how to determine this, and I don't know how to fix it, either.  Another is the microphone picking up 60Hz hum from something in the room.  I'm thinking the remote control ceiling fan/lights directly above the microphone.  This is easy to test, as the ceiling fan/light is on a separate circuit.  I can just turn the power off for the circuit and perform a measurement and see what happens.  

So, thanks for the replies, and I'll post more when I get the laptop back and perform a second sets of measurements.  I had the laptop for two weeks, but I spent one weekend cleaning up the laptop and installing updates (as I have a high-speed internet connection and the owner does not), and I had to get a virus off the laptop.  That took a while, as Macaffee wouldn't delete files, so I had to disable stuff, boot into safe mode, rerun virus scan, delete the files, and re-enable the settings I disabled.  Computers suck!

Ethan Winer

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 1459
  • Audio expert
    • RealTraps - The acoustic treatment experts
Help with ETF/sound card (long, with graphs)
« Reply #7 on: 9 Jan 2006, 07:13 pm »
Bob,

> I think you're right about the sound card causing the ringing <

Here's a thought: Depending on the sound card, you probably need to configure its internal mixer correctly. If it's set to echo the inputs back to the outputs, which is sometimes useful for recording, that could cause a feedback loop and ringing. You have to go into the sound card's control panel or mixer to set the inputs to line input only, not to a mix of various inputs and outputs.

--Ethan