Need Internal Speaker Cabinet Fix

kirch · « **on:** 1 Jan 2006, 04:01 pm »

Hi everyone - sorry I missed the GAS Christmas get-together, but you know how hectic things get at times. Maybe next year!

Here's my speaker problem . . .

I've sent out a half dozen or so email requests and made a few phone calls to various places locally and around the country trying to find someone who can fix the buzz in one of my Audio Note AZ-Two's. NO LUCK!!

I need to find someone to fix this thing 'cause it's gotten really bad. Scott - you know the problem - a loose board inside the speaker. This used to be a very minor issue which was rarely audible. Now it's a pretty dramatic problem, making the speaker essentially "unlistenable" even at a relatively low volume.

Here's a response to my inquiries from the ONLY person to get back to me:

"Those cabinets really are not designed to be taken apart and re-assembled. I am sure that a good cabinet maker could help you out
but I am not set up here for that kind of work."

Seems no one wants to open up the cabinet, glue down the panel and then re-assemble it. I can't even get a response from Triode - the US Audio Note distributor, or the guy who sold me the speaker in the first place!

I am the wrong person to try and do this myself and I'd like to find a reputable dealer/repair outfit to handle this. I really, really like these speakers and don't want to give them up.

Does anyone have any suggestions?? Thanks -

gonefishin · « **Reply #1 on:** 1 Jan 2006, 06:20 pm »

Hi Kirch (happy New Year)

A speaker cabinet that doens't like to have the speaker removed and fastened back on again?

Sounds like a bunch of audiphile hoopla to me. Only way this can be true is if the cabinet isn't made with good construction methods and can't actually handle having a woofer be un-mounted and then mounted again. I however don't think this would be the case.

Are these a pair of factory made Audio-Note cabinets? If so...I would be surprised if they aren't standing behind their product. Have you been persistant about the problem in their forum?

If you can't find any other solution...don't feel too uncomfortable opening the cabinets up and fixing the broken piece. If you would like someone else, to reassure you as you repair it, just ask for help...I'm sure someone will be willing to help you out

If not...and your ever in the Chicago area...bring them with you.

I know this is certainly frustrating...but no matter what causing the problem...it is repairable. Although it would be nicer if you could get this resolved with the help of Audio-Note. I'm sure you'll get this problem resolved with good results, one way or another.

Happy New Year,

dan

kirch · « **Reply #2 on:** 1 Jan 2006, 10:08 pm »

Thanks GF. Actually, I received a reply just today from the Big Cheese at Audio Note with simple but specific direction as to how I can fix this problem myself.

Based on his info, I suspect I'm not the first to have this problem, but the fix seems so easy, even I'm going to try it!

Kirch

Scott F. · « **Reply #3 on:** 1 Jan 2006, 11:13 pm »

Brian,

If Daves fix doesn't work, let me know. I can fix it so it will never buzz again (but you'll have to drop them off for a week or so).

Bill Baker · « **Reply #4 on:** 2 Jan 2006, 12:20 am »

Hi Brian,
Sorry to hear you are having this problem with the AZ-2s, I was unaware that it was still an issue as I thought Scott took care of this sime time ago.
Giving the design of the cabinet, I think I have a way to take care of this. Let me know if Peter's idea doesn't work out and we can go from there.
The internals are accesable through both the bass driver and crossover openings to be able to reach both sides of the internal horn loaded panel.

Quote

A speaker cabinet that doens't like to have the speaker removed and fastened back on again

No, not the removal of the speaker but rather taking the actual cabinet apart. I think this is what he meant. I know the drovers can be removed as I have done this myself on this very same pair of speakers.

Scott F. · « **Reply #5 on:** 2 Jan 2006, 01:19 am »

Hiya GoneFishin (Dan),

What we haven't told you about the speakers is they are transmission lines. That means it's really tough trying to reach down to the lower part of the cabinet to get glue (or whatever) on the inside baffle.

In shipping the speakers internal baffle came loose and buzzed on heavy bass notes. What I did as a fix was to take some outside 1/4 round (pine) and put Gorilla glue on it and stuck it to th einside corner of the baffle, glueing the baffle to the enclosure. When I re-glued the enclosure the first time, there was about a 12" section that was loose. My guess is that the rest has come loose too.

Absolute, positive fix. Screw the side panel of the enclosure to the internal baffle on about 2" centers then re-veneer the cabinet (its oak painted black). Easy fix but it will take me the best part of a week to get it done.

Bill Baker · « **Reply #6 on:** 2 Jan 2006, 01:30 am »

Hi Scott,
If I recall, it's a vinyl veneer. If Brian wants to make them look even better, you could remove the vinyl. You could then countersink any screws you would install from the exterior, fill the holes and finish them in a nice real wood veneer!!
I was considering doing this myself to a apir of the AZ-TWOs using a nice Cherry veneer.

MY IDEA was to continue with your original fix using the rear panel hole where the crossover is mounted. You shoul be able to get most of the bottom half through here and the upper half through the 8" driver hole.

Scott F. · « **Reply #7 on:** 2 Jan 2006, 01:43 am »

I was thinking about the same thing (new real wood veneer). My approach is sort of like taking a sledge hammer to nail but one thing is for sure, it won't rattle no mo'

Oh, I would definately predrill and countersink.

Bill Baker · « **Reply #8 on:** 2 Jan 2006, 01:50 am »

There is one more option that WILL work. Find some "Hide Glue" which use to be available through Sears. Lay the cabinet on it's side at about a 45 degree angle. Then squirt the glue at the connection point of the trans line panel and the cabinet side so that the glue runs all the way down the panel.
This stuff takes a while to dry by is strong as hell when it does. At least this way you would not have to attact the outside of the cabinet unless you intend to refinish. Afterall, we are speaking of a $1k speaker. I woudl refinish in real wood veneer but that's just the way I am....... anything but conventional

gonefishin · « **Reply #9 on:** 2 Jan 2006, 02:42 am »

Quote from: Scott F.

Hiya GoneFishin (Dan),

What we haven't told you about the speakers is they are transmission lines. That means it's really tough trying to reach down to the lower part of the cabinet to get glue (or whatever) on the inside baffle.

I now understand better the other poster saying that the boxes aren't meant to be taken apart much better now. ..thanks. This would make it a bit tougher and more time consuming...but still worth the trouble

Sounds like you guys are coming up with some nice solutions. With replacing the vinyl (is that right?) veneer...the options should be even wider

I'm just glad to see things work out for Kirch...but I had all the confidence in the GAS group

Cheers guys

dan

kirch · « **Reply #10 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 04:30 am »

Wow - good suggestions guys - I'll keep you posted on my progress.

Here was Peter's suggestion from Audio Note:

The simplest way to remove this problem is to buy some white wood glue in a tube, put the speaker on its back, take the woofer out, and then run the glue down on both sides of the internal panel, a good strong line of glue along the sidepanel and the internal panel, that should do the job without much fuss.
You may need to tilt the speaker sufficiently to make sure that the glue runs to the end of the internal panel.

While this may seem easy at first, and Scott eluded to this - you really can't get in thru the front at all, unless you have really skinny arms and are ultra flexible in some freakshow sort of way. Scott did some work on the easier-to-get to areas in both the front and the back.

This morning I did my best to get in the back and with the Gorilla Glue, adhere another foot or so 1/4 round on both sides all the way to the bottom of the speaker. Wasn't able to get anything on from the front. Too little room, wires and a bunch of foam.

I'm going to fire it up in the afternoon after the glue has set for a day and see if it helps. I have a feeling I may have to run with Bill's suggestion about just screwing the thing (no pun intended), then maybe re-veneering.

On top of all this, with the way my new office/studio/listening room is set up, there really is no good place to put these AZ-Two's. AN recommends these speakers be pretty much right up against a wall or wedged into a corner. I just don't have anyplace like that in here.

Because I record every day, I had to have the rear 1/3 of the room lined with some serious sound-absorption material to deaden the recording area. Keep in mind, the room is just under 19 x 9, so it's pretty small after you put anything in it.

The center 1/3 of the room is essentially open except for the stereo system & speakers, with my workstation taking up the final third opposite the recording area. The speakers are set up in the middle of the room, with the rear port aimed right into the deadest part of the room.

Long story short, these speakers probably aren't what I need for this room. I've moved the little Paradigm's down here since the AZ issue, and actually, they sound good in this little room. Not terrific - but not bad. Is there such a thing as a decent soundstage in a room this size???

I might just move the AN's back upstairs . . . of course, I'd have to get another system to accommodate them - and wouldn't that be a drag!

Of course, there's the ball and chain to contend with . . . Hmmmm - I'm gonna have to really think about this one. Maybe I could bribe her with a shiny new vacuum cleaner.

(Scott - saw your review of the mp3 server - very nice. Liked the comment about not getting paid by the word - same goes for this post!)

Thanks everyone!

Kirch

bpape · « **Reply #11 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 05:04 am »

We can work with the panels in the front of the room so that they can be more lively when you want to listen. They'll still have to be away from the walls but that's just the way it is in that space with trying to do all 3 things.

That'd just be a drag if you had to buy another setup

Scott F. · « **Reply #12 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 01:11 pm »

Hiya,

WEll, if you were to move the AZs upstairs and set up a new system, you might think about one of the lettle Sonic-T amps. You could go with the $30 cheapies or you could splurge on their new 'audiophile' versions for $139.

Mate this with the Squeezebox or feed your cable into the back of it and you're into a second system pretty darned cheap.

If the AZs still buzz after flooding them with glue, let me know. I can fix 'em. As I think about it, it probably wouldn't take more than a about 2 or 3 hours to do the actual screwing and veneering. Then you could (if you want) take them home then stain and finish them (thats what takes the most time). Maybe you could take that opportunity to hear the SB and the LP5.

Lemme know..

kirch · « **Reply #13 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 02:02 pm »

Thanks Scott - I'll let you know -

Re the new system, I was thinking about the AN Zero series. They don't take up much space and are supposed to pair wonderfully with the AZ-Two's.

That's what I'd like to do. What actually happens remains to be seen.

And Bryan - I understand the challenge in trying to accomplish all three of my requirements for this room. I even had to some bass absorbers to the rear wall between the panels in the middle and the large corner panels because I was getting a little hollowness when recording. The bass traps worked. Taking the panels off the side walls when listening makes a big difference and I've even recorded with those off with no negative affect on quality, so they may be down permanently. Not sure at this point - I assume taking the extra bass absorption down when listening would also help, but honestly it's kind of a pain in the butt having to take all this crap outta the room every time I want to sit down and listen, then put it right back up again. Might be an excercise I have to get used to though.

Anyone have suggestions or a response to my question about soundstage in a small room? Are there speakers that really shine in small environs? Is it possible in a room that is 19'x8.5'x 6'9"? -- yeah, these old homes only have 7 foot ceilings in the basement - and I had to drop the ceiling down a little. Tight squeeze when you're 6'5", but I don't hit my head, and my primary concern was recording, secondary was listening.

kirch

Scott F. · « **Reply #14 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 05:20 pm »

Anyone have suggestions or a response to my question about soundstage in a small room?

The Epiphony's soundstage like crazy and are a very easy listen (non-fatiguing). If you want, I could loan you my pair for a while since I've taken down the Big Fun System. That way you could see if they fit the bill.

Blackmore · « **Reply #15 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 07:08 pm »

You could borrow my Triangle Titus' as a contrast to Scott's Epiphonys. They are good in the image department, but are quite a bit different in tonal balance. Could be fun just trying them out and compairing them in your room. Let me know and maybe I could bring them over to Scott's house so you could make just one trip to grab the speakers. I think you'll like the Epiphony speakers a little more, but it's always good to have some choices.

kirch · « **Reply #16 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 08:24 pm »

So far, looks like the fix has taken! No buzz at all - haven't checked one or two tunes ye that produced serious vibration, but it's passed all the other tests so far!

Bryan and Scott - I'm experimenting with as many small options as I can with positioning - These speakers always sound good, it's really just a question of "degree of goodness".

I'm going to give it a number of tries the next few weeks and see if I can't find just the right spot with just the right positioning etc.

Thanks everyone for their suggestions! HNY Gassers!

Kirch

bpape · « **Reply #17 on:** 4 Jan 2006, 12:42 am »

Kirch.

Are you taking down the reflection panels? Those should stay up for listening and should have no effect on your recording area.

As for removing things from the room - you shouldn't have to pull anything. The idea was to face one side of the front wall absorbers with plywood so it would face the room when listening or mixing but be pulled out as we diagrammed and soft side enclosing your recording area.

Bryan

kirch · « **Reply #18 on:** 4 Jan 2006, 01:13 am »

Bryan -

I've taken down the larger reflection panel on each side wall and it helped brighten things up for listening. Added just enough liveliness to the room, without, as you said, affecting the recording area. As I said, I was never too concerned about the "mixing" anyway, it's just editing voice. Not much mixing involved.

I didn't do the extra set of panels which would have been free-standing due to the total lack of room, manuverability (sp?) and convenience, plus, they weren't necessary for optimal recording. The sound I get when recording is perfect without them. Broadcast quality and then some.

Turned out really nice though - small, but nice. It's already paid for itself, and I've only been in it a month. Hard to argue with that!

bpape · « **Reply #19 on:** 4 Jan 2006, 04:48 am »

OK. Sounds good. If the room needs to be more lively, then the panels in the rear might be better to take down and put the reflections back up. Maybe I'll come over some time and we'll play with different things.

If you have extra material left over from not making all the panels, I'll take it back. I'm just concerned that you added a couple other things but not what we originally designed. Just want to make sure it is the best it can be for you.

Bryan