[arthur]

i do agree about the crossover effects on speakers with multiple dirvers, but there is something about feeling the whole orchestra throughout my body that my Legacy Classics deliver that i have not been able to attain from smaller monitors. the broader range of sound stimulates more of my senses which makes the experience of listening to music so much more engaging for me...

[audiojerry]

Wow, I don't log on to AC for the weekend, and then on Monday morning there's a boatload of posts and a few questions for me. Great comments, and thanks to everyone contributing. Sorry for not keeping up with the dialogue.  I'll try to catch up, but there's a lot to keep up with.

Arthur:

my Legacy Classics deliver that i have not been able to attain from smaller monitors. the broader range of sound stimulates more of my senses which makes the experience of listening to music so much more engaging for me...

I agree, great full range floorstanders can definitely produce a visceral, exciting experience, and I did say that I have to accept several compromises by going with minimonitors. Ideally, it would be great to have two listening rooms for each type of speaker. But I can only have one, and right now I'll take the monitors because I can live without the full scale dynamics, but I can't live without the purity.  

I have to add that the addition of two subs has greatly enhanced their ability to play full range. My recent addition of two $160 Yamaha SW205 subs are working extremely well for me. I'm running the monitors full range and low-passing  the subs below 70hz (best guess) with a very sharp cutoff slope. Haven't been able to find a high-pass that I'm happy with.

MaxCast

In recent years we have seen tall two ways with a very narrow baffle. My guess is that this is an attempt to get the lower extension with the bigger cabinet and better imaging of the narrow baffle. Has anyone tried these in relation to larg vs. small speakers?

I have owned several ProAc's (I really like ProAc), and the Response 2.5 and 1.5 are examples of narrow profiles. The 1.5 uses the same tweeter and same size midbass as the Response 1SC monitor, and it does have substantially more bass output.  

doug s.

question for audiojerry: re: the proac 1sc's, i know these are fantastic - it took me over a year to talk a relative into getting a pair to replace his 1.5's in his second system - it took him about 15 minutes to decide the 1.5's had to go!  (and for all those interested in the monitor vs floor-standing debate, the 1.5 is the floorstanding iteration of the 1sc, using the exact same drivers). but, dint ya say how fantastic the criterions were? still like the 1sc's better?

Doug, the midbass driver on the 1SC is the same size as the 1.5, but they are not the same driver. The 1.5 has a circular frame; the 1SC has a square frame and transparent cone material (aerogel maybe?), but I agree. I owned the 1.5, and it is very nice, really narrow profile, great cabinetry, and is basically a monitor with a built in stand, but the 1SC is magic. It is significantly less $$$ than the other Response series speakers, but it is easily the best. It's only slightly larger than the Tab Signature and Tab 2000, which I also owned, but neither has the magic either.

I think Danny's Criterions are exceptional, and in the same league as the 1SC. They have better bass and can play at higher spl, but again, I became hooked on the transparency, air, and spaciousness of the 1SC. That being said, the Dynadio 1.3SE are giving the 1SC a serious run for the trophy. They are darker, but silky smooth, sweet, and a great match with my ARC tubes.  

Sotantar

But, you know these speakers (Druid) as you had an original pair.

Yes, but how do you know this? Who are you, mystery man?  
I believe they went back to the drawing board after I auditioned them and have undergone a number of refinements. I never heard a speaker that had greater speed and punch; playback of drum solos would knock you out of your chair. But for an old guy like me, they were a bit too strident and edgy. I'd like to hear the newest iteration.    

JLM

Jerry, for my $0.02 you could have stayed with full range and still had smaller cabinets. Just look at Omega Speakers here at the circle. Their TS-3's are positively tiny (14.75 inches high x 6.5 inches wide x 11 inches deep) and are rated down to 62 Hz using a single 5 inch Fostex driver (without a nasty whizzer cone). For $529 Louis will sell you a pair of the hot rodded version.

I'm always open minded when it comes to trying out new speakers - bring them on! Do you think he would let me review them?

drphoto

But hey, isn't this about fun, not absolutes? And wasn't the one thing we learned from MAF was that there is something for everyone?

Couldn't agree more - there are no absolutes! I'll admit, I wouldn't bet the house that I will have the same opinions about speakers 6 or even 3 months from now. And it is great fun!  

Still, I'm pondering the possiblity of MTM Diluco's or 626R's in my system....

I'd like to try them too, and I believe I will.

randytsuch

After all that, I picked my Taylos, for price (they were used, but in very good condition) and sound....
but I did think the De Capos were really sweet.

I've read and heard that to. In fact I've never heard a bad thing about this design. Isn't it a fairly old design from the 60's or 70's. My biggest issue with them is I think they are butt ugly.

As far as the Taylo's are concerned, you get no argument from me. I thought they were excellent, and in fact replaced my ProAc Tabs a few years ago. I really liked the notch filter switch on the back. It was really useful for listening to badly recorded edgy cd's.  

If I didn't live in Wisconsin, I'd put the ACI Jaguars on my list, but I don't want to pay the damn sales tax.

[Sotantar]

Sorry Audiojerry.  Since there is not too many people who have heard these speakers, word gets around who has.  

Well, I dont know if Zu went back to the drawing board or not, as in these speaker's seem to be pretty complete.  I have heard however that they are smoother than the one's you heard.  Also, I totally dig the attributes you mentioned.

They just seem to do all the things a great minimonitor does and more.  I have never heard better.  Peace

[doug s.]

hi jerry,

thanks for the update of thje 1sc's compared to the criterion's.  so, you found the proacs more transparent than the criterions, even tho they have a cone vs the criterion's ribbons...  THANK you!    i had a similar experience w/my cone-driver monitors, & i thought something must be wrong w/my hearing, the review sample criterion's i heard, or both!  

and, coincidentally, yust yesterday, my relative came over w/his 1sc's to listen to in my rig, as i have a huge room, & lotsa low end, w/my vmps subs actively crossed over to whatever monitor i'm listening to...  yes, these are the equal of my merets in the transparency/detail dept, both exceeding the criterion's.  tho i also agree the criterion's are exceptional speakers, especially considering the cost.  i was seriously considering the diluceo iteration, but this treble transparency ting was putting me off - i tink the added midwoofer would help the supurbly detailed lower midrange, filling it out, but i still feel the treble would be lacking...

re: proacs, my relative feels his 2.5's are better than the 1sc's in *all* areas - including detail & imaging.  i haven't done a direct a-b, so i dunno....  but, he's threatening to bring them over to my house, too, so mebbe we'll see...

now, jerry, tell me more about your experience w/the druids.  besides your feeling they were too strident & edgy, how did they do otherwise?  detail/transparency?  soundstage/imaging?  the speed/punch thing sounds *really* enticing, as i listen to a lot of percussion.     and, mebbe actively crossing them to subs, & setting my mesa baron amp to full-triode may tame the edginess, if the latest iteration from druid hasn't awreddy done so...

thanks,

doug s., gotta go back to listening to these bebe proacs before my relative comes & gets 'em!  

[brad b]

Boy, I am scratching my head at your interpretation of the Criterion ribbon tweeter.  I wonder if something was wrong the pair?  That ribbon tweeter in my Diluceo's blew away my Dynaudio 1.3 SE's in the treble and midbass area, but could not match the little Dyn's in the lower frequencies, hence the REL sub.  Hmmmm.  I wonder if the crossover change Danny did makes that much difference, cause Tyson, Jason, Mike and I all thought the upper end was really nice, without any harshness.

Oh well, that is what home auditioning is all about, and I do agree with you that the monitors do provide a lot of detail, but may not get you "In the performance".  I guess we'll wait a couple more years for the speaker brain implant...
Brad

[ton1313]

Regarding the Druid 2

I believe they went back to the drawing board after I auditioned them and have undergone a number of refinements. I never heard a speaker that had greater speed and punch; playback of drum solos would knock you out of your chair. But for an old guy like me, they were a bit too strident and edgy. I'd like to hear the newest iteration.

 

Jerry, the midrange glare/edge is gone!! The Bass extends deeper also. I have them coupled with the new Zu sub, and it is magic.

Later

[doug s.]

brad, don't get me wrong - i found the ribbon tweet in the criterion *very* smooth, & *very* extended - yust not as much detail as i expected, or wanted....  as per my review here on audiocircle, there was info on cuts i'm wery familiar with, that were mia...  i, too, was wondering if, perhaps there was someting wrong /my review sample.  but, i'm familiar w/audiojerry's reviews of many speakers, & it seems he hears tings similar to what i'm hearing, in his comparison of the criterions to his proac 1sc's...

ton, re: the druid2's - which cabinet iteration do ya have - seems there may be a noticable performance improvement w/the way-spendy upgrade composite cabinet...

doug s.

[ton1313]

I have the standard wood box. I had the original Druid, and Zu performed an upgrade to my existing cabinets. They stiffened the bracing, and added a foam type of cartrage behing the speaker, they also upgraded the internal speaker wire from Zu Wax to Zu Ibis, & a few other tricks. As far as the extra money for the composite box, I am told that with that construction the main benefit is reducing cabinet resonances. I would like to A/B them, but am way to happy with the ones I have now  

[Psychicanimal]

Mini monitors are the ticket to intimacy.  Be warned of the following:

1) Live music can be bright and harsh.  Be prepared to go virtually anechoic in a near field setup and and able to control glare and jitter to the utmost.  This will require outstanding noise control and tuning measures.  There's no room for half ass measures here.  I do not recommend tube amps to achieve euphonic smoothness.

2) The necessary use of subwoofers and active crossover is not cheap, but well worth it.  If you want to use tube amps for the mini monitors they will need to be as fast as your subwoofer amp.  To do this successfully, expensive, fast tube amps (like the Atma Sphere OTL) will be needed.  Buy sun tan lotion prior to listening to music.  The other route (what I did) is to use a tubed CDP and/or tube preamp and smooth, airy class A power amps (like my Forté 4).  Interconnects and speaker wire will make or break you.  I strongly suggest cryogenic treatment.

3) If you do this right the resulting sound is nothing short of spooky...

[John Casler]

3) If you do this right the resulting sound is nothing short of spooky...

I'll tell you what's "spooky".....

You Avatar is the spittin' image of my ex-girlfriend.

Now that is "spooky".

[Psychicanimal]

3) If you do this right the resulting sound is nothing short of spooky...

I'll tell you what's "spooky".....

You Avatar is the spittin' image of my ex-girlfriend.

Now that is "spooky".

Is she Venezuelan, too?

I was after a Mexican model like *that*...extremely high maintenance, but very cool to be w/ her!  

Not everything is audio...

[John Casler]

No she was (and still is) Romanian.

A former gymnast (but I won't go there)

But they have women like that in Venezuela too?

I wonder if they have VMPS in Venezuela?

I could expand  a bit

[Jetsons]

Hi, Audiojerry:

I'm not a speaker designer but the 1.3SE does not use a simplistic approach in their cross-over design. I believe that there are at least twenty componets used in total between the two epoxy boards. The boards are seperated within the enclosure to avoid any crosstalk.

Here, http://www.excel-hifi.com/excel%20news%20ad.htm is a web site containing a link to the 1.3 SE factory brochure with very nice illustrations of the drivers, crossover and build of the cabinet. Blow up the image of the drivers to 400% with Acrobat and you'll have an excellent view of the internals. BTW, the literature is in Chinese.

Regards,

Jet

[Val]

But they have women like that in Venezuela too? I wonder if they have VMPS in Venezuela? I could expand  a bit

If this doesn't convince you, nothing would. Venezuela (where I was born) has won more Miss Universe and Miss World contests than any other country, easily, and perhaps got more top 5 finalists than all the other countries combined. The best (worst?) part is that the two or three finalists were often as beautiful as the winners.

Go to

Miss Venezuela

(click on "History", then click on "International Titles and Crowns")

My personal favorites?

1. Miss Universe 1967, Mariela Pérez Branger (most beautiful woman ever)
2. Miss Universe 1981, Irene Sáez Conde (who happens to be my sister-in-law and grew up with my children, as her mother died young). In 1991, a group of European fashion magazines did a poll among them to find the most beautiful woman in the world, and guess who won? Yes, Irene did, ten years after her Miss Universe title!

I believe the VMPS distributorship is open over there, but you have to ask Brian.

Val

[audiojerry]

doug s.    

re: proacs, my relative feels his 2.5's are better than the 1sc's in *all* areas - including detail & imaging. i haven't done a direct a-b, so i dunno.... but, he's threatening to bring them over to my house, too, so mebbe we'll see...

Like I said, I like ProAc, and I thought the 2.5 was great. Yes, it can go louder without congesting and deeper in the bass, but I'll still take the 1SC. I sold my 2.5 for Audio Physic Virgo II, another outstanding speaker. The Virgo was warmer and could go lower in the bass, but the side firing woofers might be a problem in some rooms. A few folks thought I was dead wrong choosing the Virgo over the 2.5, so it boils down to personal preference.    

now, jerry, tell me more about your experience w/the druids. besides your feeling they were too strident & edgy, how did they do otherwise? detail/transparency? soundstage/imaging? the speed/punch thing sounds *really* enticing, as i listen to a lot of percussion.  and, mebbe actively crossing them to subs, & setting my mesa baron amp to full-triode may tame the edginess, if the latest iteration from druid hasn't awreddy done so...

I think ton1313 is in a better position to know the Druids intimately.  ZuCable is also very generous with their audition/return policy.  


brad b.

Boy, I am scratching my head at your interpretation of the Criterion ribbon tweeter. I wonder if something was wrong the pair? That ribbon tweeter in my Diluceo's blew away my Dynaudio 1.3 SE's in the treble and midbass area, but could not match the little Dyn's in the lower frequencies, hence the REL sub. Hmmmm. I wonder if the crossover change Danny did makes that much difference, cause Tyson, Jason, Mike and I all thought the upper end was really nice, without any harshness.

Oh well, that is what home auditioning is all about,

I believe Danny said that the Diluceo is a very different sounding speaker from the Criterion, so to say the Diluceo blew away the 1.3SE is saying alot, but I thought you said you parted with the 1.3SE awhile ago before you had a proper setup. The results have a lot to do with associated gear, and the 1.3SE is a very nice match with my tube gear. 200wpc of tubed amplification is not at all too much for the 1.3SE.  You are right, home auditioning is the only way to know for sure.

jetsons
Thanks for that info link

Val, where can I get a pair of those Venezuelan women. Do you think they would have a high WAF?  

[KeithR]

The Virgo IIs had more bass extension than the 2.5s?  Something must have been wrong with the 2.5s--they extend down to 20hz.  The Virgo IIs (or IIIs) for that matter definitely do not...

Both speakers are excellent in my opinion, and i agree personal preference is an issue here.

I also owned 1.3SEs and would contend they are the best monitor under 5k with possible exception of the Ann 25 that I haven't heard yet.  

KeithR

doug s.    

re: proacs, my relative feels his 2.5's are better than the 1sc's in *all* areas - including detail & imaging. i haven't done a direct a-b, so i dunno.... but, he's threatening to bring them over to my house, too, so mebbe we'll see...

Like I said, I like ProAc, and I thought the 2.5 was great. Yes, it can go louder without congesting and deeper in the bass, but I'll still take the 1SC. I sold my 2.5 for Audio Physic Virgo II, another outstanding speaker. The Virgo was warmer and could go lower in the bass, but the side firing woofers might be a problem in some rooms. A few folks thought I was dead wrong choosing the Virgo over the 2.5, so it boils down to personal preference.

[Sotantar]

Doug S.  I know you asked the question of Audiojerry and Ton1313 replied as well.  I would just like to give a couple other comments as well.

The Druid 2's do not sound as harsh or edgy as, say the NHT 3.3's that I used to own.  I also do not feel that they have as much punch as, the Proac Response 2's that I also used to have.

They are extremely fast though.  They also sound very natural on cymbals, (I played drums most of my life).    They are very holographic.  Vocals are right there.  Drums sound real.  Very quiet background as well.  Imagining is the best I have heard yet.  

I have never heard anything sound poor on them yet.  If your ever in the Los Angeles area, you are welcome to check them out.  Peace

[Psychicanimal]

No she was (and still is) Romanian.

A former gymnast (but I won't go there)

But they have women like that in Venezuela too?

I wonder if they have VMPS in Venezuela?

I could expand  a bit

Here we go into a social genetics lesson:

Spanish Caribbean Amerindians, for the most part, are descendants of the Orinoco river basin indians--very beautiful people, indeed.  That's why Venezuela *and* Puerto Rico have had the most Miss Universe finalists per capita.  The mix of Spanish, Arab, black and Amerindian is simply KILLER.  My Avatar is a picture of Miss Guarico, a Miss Venezuela contestant whose bikini "accidentally" came loose during the walk around...

Let's forget about this mini monitor crap for a while and focus on something more important--a tour to Venezuela and Puerto Rico!!!  

John, if you go to Venezuela bring yourself a couple of chamas...they would love a green card.

[ABEX]

Keep the speakers,I'll take the models instead!

[John Casler]

whose bikini "accidentally" came loose during the walk around...

Accidents "DO" happen.

Where am I when this incredible act of fate offers it's kindness

Oh well, I consider myself lucky.  The Romanian provided the thrills of your Avatar on a dialy basis for quite some time.

She still begs me to go to the "nude" beach with her    

But I say, in my best George Bush impersonation "Wouldn't be prudent"