Connecting your computer to your stereo

Pablo · « **on:** 20 Dec 2005, 02:55 am »

Greetings all, this is my first post. I’ve been recommended to your site by Mike D.

For those interested, I’m relating my experience with connecting my computer to my stereo. I’ll briefly review some equipment and then a little of the reasoning behind it.

EQUIPMENT:
•   Dell Dimension PC, 2.0 ghz, XP home, Windows Media Player 10
•   Xitel Pro Hi Fi link
•   Snapstream Firefly remote
•   JVC RX-8000V receiver
•   Speakers – basically home theater set up, small JBL speakers & sub, nothing real fancy

I haven’t re-invented the wheel here. Seems like ripping (copying) CD’s to a hard drive is fairly common. Some are content with playback through computer speakers. However, I always wanted a cost effective and simple way to listen to tunes through my home theater setup (at the time, my main stereo). I suppose you could do this with high end audio, but more on that later.

I looked at the Audigy Extigy (w/ USB connectivity but requires software) and other devices but these required installation in PC slots and, of course, programs to run them. I wanted to avoid driver (software) conflicts and other complications. I considered other Audigy products, but they’re expensive and I didn’t want to read manuals to learn how to operate them.

So, I filtered these options and found the Xitel. It’s been great. It’s a small silver box with USB (1 or 2.0) connectivity with self installing drivers. This little device bypasses your computer’s sound card and offers a 100% pure digital connection to your setup.

The Pro Hi Fi link is a step up from just the Hi Fi link in that it offers 30’ of all three types of cables: 1) digital coax 2) shielded RCA 3) optical cable I use the optical cable (you know, with the red light at the ends). **I’d like to know if this kind of connectivity is available in a quality amplifier**

Bada bing - bada boom, I was done in 5 minutes. I didn’t like the idea of having to be at my computer to control things so I bought the Firefly remote which has RF operation. I can operate CD playback through walls. The only thing that sucks is, of course, the software. Even then, it’s a minor irritation. Installing the Firefly program changes some basic settings in WinXP, such as the way Windows shuts down and starts up. I overcame this by downloading a program for automatic logon of Windows, etc.

WHY I DID WHAT I DONE:
Basically, I did this for convenience and preservation. I have all my tunes meticulously organized and ready to go. I bought a 200 GB external hard drive and keep it in a fireproof safe for back up. If something ever happens, at least I still have my tunes. Besides, it can be tedious ripping all that music to your computer. I have 7,235 files which eats up 27.9 GB of space. That’s a couple hundred CD’s.

I stayed with Media Player because it was readily accessible and again, convenient. All music is ripped at the maximum bit rate, which is 192. Other players have higher bit rates, all the way up to like 320, but I don’t know how much practical effect that really has. If it does, I’d like to know about it. But it’s too late, I’m not going through that again!

All legalities aside, I’ve done all the work and if a buddy wanted my entire music collection, they could have it for the price of a hard drive and 2 hours of their time. That’s worth literally thousands of dollars.

Creating playlists is a big plus, too. Also, I like the idea of not having to hunt for a CD I want to listen to or risk scratching them up.

Another nice plus of ripping music has been the Springfield, MO library. They have a great collection and best of all, it’s FREE. I’ve doubled my entire library in the last month, damn near anything I want.

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Now, for all you audio junkies, does a hard drive as a source for music make a difference in playback on your equipment? I’d love to find out. Is the Xitel an effective conduit – would it accurately transmit those billions of 1’s and 0’s to your hypersensitive audio setup?

This works for me and my modest means. I’d like to think I could use the same concept but step up to higher end equipment in the future. This is limited however, to three types of connectivity (coax, composite or optic) at least to a pre amp or amp AND I KNOW from Mike D how uptight you guys can get about interconnects!

But ignorance is bliss. My beer tastes like champagne and I likes it that way.

bmed · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 Dec 2005, 03:28 am »

High Pablo, Welcome!

Looks like you've done a lot of work sorting the specifics. There's alot of information floating around about computer based systems, look on AA for a whole forum on the subject if you haven't already. I don't know if all the banter about USB connectivity and its inherent jitter-less production is bunk or not. Do hard-drive's have less jitter that standard CD players? Most in the know will tell you yes. I haven't seen any real measurements as of yet regarding computer systems. But then, measurements don't always mean squat seeing that I use my ears and let them decide. The guys really had a great time with the SB3 at the Christmas meeting. I personally missed it, but the Squeezebox sounds promising.

Like you I have gone to a complete hard-drive based system. I recently sold my vinyl rig (Gasp!!....settle down guys, I kept all my records for possible re-entry when life allows) and made the switch. I use a Powerbook, iTunes, AE, and a 250gig hard-drive soon to be feeding a Wavelength Brick. It's that convenience of over 2500 songs at my fingertips, found instantly, that makes up for the rest. I guess I'm getting lazy in my old age.

Cheers,
Brad

Mathew_M · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 Dec 2005, 05:06 am »

Hey Brad, what kind of amp are you running your AE into?

I had a couple of squeezeboxes on order but they emailed me to let me know it would be around mid January before they could ship them out. I went ahead and canceled my order since I have a feeling that we'll see an full featured media center Mac mini released at the Jan. Mac Expo.

bmed · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 Dec 2005, 06:34 pm »

Hi Matthew,

I use the AE into my preamp using the mini plug/RCA adapter. Sounds ok, can get pretty harsh sounding on some recordings. I've noticed increased sibilance but no worse than the cheaper cd/dvd players out there I've used.

Brad

Mike D · « **Reply #4 on:** 20 Dec 2005, 09:16 pm »

Pablo

Can you listen to streaming radio with your setup?

We need to get you in to an integrated tube amp and some high sensitivity speakers... same as Kendrick. You guys will both be very happy. If you want multi channel, you can do that too.

Congratulations on setting up your music library so effectively.

Mike

kfr01 · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 Dec 2005, 09:29 pm »

Try using Exact Audio Copy to rip and either leave the resulting .wav files uncompressed or compress with a lossless format.

Your time ripping will be much better spent and your collection will be a true backup quality archive of your original CDs.

I used to rip in ~192vbr. Shortly thereafter I tried 256vbr and 320. As drive space became cheaper a couple years ago, I started ripping with EAC + Flac. I am kicking myself for wasting all that time making sub-par rips.

The difference IS audible and I rarely listen to a chunk of my music collection because of the low quality ripping and compression. Unless you like portable audio, I see no reason to use a lossy compression format.

kfr01 · « **Reply #6 on:** 20 Dec 2005, 10:28 pm »

Quote from: bmed

High Pablo, Welcome!

Looks like you've done a lot of work sorting the specifics. There's alot of information floating around about computer based systems, look on AA for a whole forum on the subject if you haven't already. I don't know if all the banter about USB connectivity and its inherent jitter-less production is bunk or not. Do hard-drive's have less jitter that standard CD players? Most in the know will tell you yes. I haven't seen any real measurements as of yet regarding computer systems. ...

You should read this about PC audio and jitter:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue22/nugent.htm

The first part you'll want to note is this:

"The hard-disk does not read the data like a CD player. When the computer sends the audio stream to an output port, such as USB, the CPU first reads the data in a "burst" fashion from the hard disk and caches blocks of the data in memory. It is then spooled from memory to the output port in a continuous stream. Successive disk accesses are made to keep the memory cache buffer full and the stream running without interruption."

As should be apparent from the article, a hard disk will not suffer from the read related jitter of cd players. However, as you can read from the article, jitter may be introduced to a pc audio system in other places.

i.e., it isn't hard drive jitter you should be worrying about.

Pablo · « **Reply #7 on:** 21 Dec 2005, 02:53 am »

Thanks to all for the warm welcome.

Hey Brad, I’m going to have to check out the squeezebox. Sounds fun already!

Mike D, you can stream radio stations and music with Media Player. I’m sure they have extra stuff for a fee. The sky’s the limit. Guess I could use some tube warmth to counterbalance the cold and sterile digital format. I guess they make amps or preamps with optical inputs?

kfr01 has a valuable recommendation, though I am disheartened to think of ripping all that music again. What is EAC + Flac? Is it equivalent to a 320kb rip? Does that include a player? If so, is that what you use? The Nugent article looks excellent though I haven’t had time yet to read it all.

I don’t know much about high end audio, though Mike D has given me some education. That’s what I mean by ignorance is bliss – I’m not yet spoiled on a killer set up. But like everyone here, I love music and have to admit it is a different experience when we lay down tunes at Mike’s place. Then again, that could be the bourbon. Still, I’m a picky bastard in a lot of ways and music is no exception. I do want the best quality available, at least better, even if I don’t know what that is. Eventually, I believe I’d come to regret an inferior rip, so might as well start over now before my collection really gets out of hand.

Suggested newb topics for another post (or I guess I could look these up myself): What’s the big deal about vinyl? Is any one format superior to another? Are there inherent limitations to musical reproduction on CD’s?

Anywayz, thanks again for all your input!

bmed · « **Reply #8 on:** 21 Dec 2005, 03:31 am »

Pablo,

I think that ripping in a lossless format such as FLAC, AIFF, Apple Lossless and the like are the preferred formats. These insure the most accurate rips from the CD, with no compression. Unfortunately that means each file is much larger than the mp3 files, obviously requiring a large hardrive(s).

WHOOP, WHOOP, WHOOP, WHOOP---can of worms alert, can of worms alert. What's the big deal with vinyl, WHAT's THE BIG DEAL WITH VINYL!! Evidently Mike D hasn't been doing his job. Vinyl and tubes are just about the best things since sliced bread! Is vinyl the best format?.....well, does a zoo bear shit on concrete?

Cheers,
Brad

jcrane · « **Reply #9 on:** 21 Dec 2005, 04:21 am »

Well I am going to let Sturgis handle this one

jamie

jcrane · « **Reply #10 on:** 21 Dec 2005, 04:29 am »

As for ripping CDs here are my thoughts....
Use EAC (Free) and LAME (free) if you want MP3s.
I use 320kb CBR MP3s, I use this because I have an iPod that doesn't do FLAC and apple lossless and wav files run the battery down really fast due to the small buffer size. If you do not have a portable or your portable can handle FLAC, which is lossless, use it. This will take up more space but give you the best playback. I have trouble telling the difference between the 320kb CBR and the CD, others claim they can tell, but I find that hard to believe.
One thing I would recommend is if you have plenty of HD space, rip all your CDs to WAV and use this to Archive. You can then compress to your desire bitrate with LAME for streaming (or just stream your WAV finals).

In the future you may want to look into a sqeezebox, a gift from the powers above for the digital audio fan

I hope this makes sense, I have been at work for 16 hours now and I really need some sleep

Welcome!

Jamie

Scott F. · « **Reply #11 on:** 21 Dec 2005, 05:00 am »

First and formost,

Welcome aboard Pablo

Quote from: Pablo

What is EAC + Flac? Is it equivalent to a 320kb rip? Does that include a player? If so, is that what you use?

EAC is short for Exact Audio Copy. It's a 'bit for bit' ripping software. FLAC is short for Free Lossless Audio Compression (codec?). EAC does do 320k bit rips. FLAC gives you about a 40% compression of your raw WAV files. Though I haven't used it, I understand Foobar has a FLAC plugin that many people like to use as a FLAC player.

Quote from: Pablo

What’s the big deal about vinyl? Is any one format superior to another? Are there inherent limitations to musical reproduction on CD’s?

No pressure at all, clear some time in your schedule and come by my place. I'll let you decide what format is better. I've got plenty of vinyl to choose from including a fair amount of new releases (as in post Y2K artist releases). You'll get a nice demonstration of the best of all three formats, CD, Computer via the Squeezebox, and the (over) century old turntable (all played via tubes and single drivers of course

).

Mike D · « **Reply #12 on:** 21 Dec 2005, 02:30 pm »

Mike D, you can stream radio stations and music with Media Player. I’m sure they have extra stuff for a fee. The sky’s the limit. Guess I could use some tube warmth to counterbalance the cold and sterile digital format. I guess they make amps or preamps with optical inputs?

I don't think you will want to stick with the optical cable. There are better ways to transfer a digital signal. I am not the expert on this. Just search this site or www.audioasylum.com and go to the cable forum.

What's the big deal with vinyl? I think you meant to ask, Why is it that vinyl is so very superior to CDs?

I don't have time now, but I MAY respond to the big muther of a question later today.

jcrane · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 Dec 2005, 01:12 am »

single drivers kick ass
tubes are pretty cool as well
I use to love my K-tel Vinyl collection when I was in JR High

Jamie

Pablo · « **Reply #14 on:** 22 Dec 2005, 02:42 am »

Hey guys, I have re-read your responses and have reviewed sites (& programs) that have been mentioned concerning the copy and playback of cd’s on a computer. To quote Scott F’s quote, “my brain hurts”. The internet is great, but sometimes I get overwhelmed by information.

I looked at and compared lossless compression formats and have taken your recommendations of using FLAC.

That said, can anyone recommend a player? I think Windows Media Player will play FLAC files with a plug-in – right? -OR- has anyone had better experience with something else?

As far as ripping, what’s the best program? I know EAC has been mentioned, but I’m confused by Jamie’s suggestion: “Use EAC (Free) and LAME (free) if you want MP3s.” I’m lead to believe EAC doesn’t rip in FLAC format, also because I searched the EAC site (http://www.exactaudiocopy.org/) and couldn’t find anything about FLAC.

Obviously, my objective is to re-rip all my CD’s in FLAC format and be able to play them back through my computer to my stereo. However, to add one complication, is there anything I should consider at this point if in the future I’d like to (somehow) play my collection in my vehicle? But then again, I guess that should be for another post.

Finally, let me just say how much I appreciate your help and input with all this. As you well know, building a quality music library on your PC requires a tremendous amount of time and effort. Considering this, doing it right is invaluable. Thanks for all your help, even if I don’t know nuthin’ ‘bout them scratchy ol’ records

chadh · « **Reply #15 on:** 22 Dec 2005, 02:59 am »

Yesterday, I made my first attempt to grapple with EAC/FLAC/LAME. So this is the impression of a newbie...

EAC, in its most basic form, is PURELY about grabbing information off a disc and copying to your hard drive. All it really does is run some error checking processes to make sure that you have the right information on your hard drive.

EAC has an auxilliary function, which allows it to call on compression programs and convert the copies it makes into compressed copies. So, if you want perfect WAV files, all you need is EAC. If you want compressed versions of perfect WAV files, you need to use EAC in conjunction with a compression program such as FLAC (if you want flac files) or LAME (if you want mp3 files).

The following is a really simple tutorial on setting up the preferences for EAC, and this makes it clear how the FLAC or LAME programs are used for compression:

http://users.pandora.be/satcp/eac-qs-en.htm

Even I managed to get this to work!

Chad

Pablo · « **Reply #16 on:** 22 Dec 2005, 03:18 am »

Chad, thanks for the excellent link!

Scott, I'm in Springfield, MO but plan on getting that way at the next available opportunity. I'll call Mike D and we'll have to get together. Thanks for the invite. I saw pics of your setup on the web and it looks awesome. Looking forward to it.

jcrane · « **Reply #17 on:** 22 Dec 2005, 03:39 am »

LAME is one program (codec) to encode your wav file into MP3.
If you want information (along with a config file for FLAC PM me and I can send you a link) about FLAC the above mentioned thread is pretty informative, it is over at av123.com

As far as your car you have a couple options. Many headunits now support MP3 and WMA files burned to cd. I have a Pioneer unit that does just this, so I just burn my MP3 files to cd and I am good to go in the car.
Another option is if your head unit has an AUX in which would allow you to plug your portable player right into the headunit.
The third option is to get an FM transmitter device that plugs into your portable and plays the files over an unused FM freq.

The biggest problem I can think of is the lack of support of FLAC files by portable players and in Headunits.
This is why I selected 320kb MP3 as my compression format.
I can use it with my SB3, Foobar, Winamp, Headunit and my iPod.
Now I do know people who Archive in WAV, use FLAC for Home use and then covert to MP3 for portable and car use. Only two things that would keep someone from doing all this, time and disk space. With external drives priced lower every week and internal drives being just down right dirt cheap, time is the main factor. At least to me!

Good luck

jamie

Scott F. · « **Reply #18 on:** 22 Dec 2005, 07:12 am »

Hi Pablo,

Just let me know when, my doors are always open.

Jamie, I think the iRiver supports the FLAC format (maybe). My daughters are using the iRiver, I'll have to check the book and see so it may be an option.

jcrane · « **Reply #19 on:** 22 Dec 2005, 05:25 pm »

Scott,
Thanks for that info, I have had my iPod for a while now and haven't really kept up on the market. If FLAC can gain mainstream support from the manufactuers, it can only be a good thing for us end users.

Jamie