[Danny Richie]

Do cables really make a difference? Is wire simply wire? Do cables burn in? Do speakers burn in? Do capacitors really make a difference?

I have some questions for you guys regarding this subject, and would like to know your thoughts. I know lately a bunch of guys on this site and others have flamed each other all over the place about this stuff already. I am not looking for an on line debate. I am looking for opinions on this subject, and I think that in general us Texans tend to be little bigger than the rest and will not stoup to on line hash and bashes.

What I am hoping for is a mix of sceptics, those with little practical experience with this stuff, those simply interested, and the guys that have tried a little of this and that and have already formed some kind of opinion one way or another. I also would like a good group willing to take part in some subjective listening, and maybe some learning.

I'd like to put together a jam meeting for this. It might be best if someone in the Dallas/Fort Worth area will host it unless you guys are willing to make a drive up to my place. I'm two hours from the DFW area.

I'd like to make this first one simple and limit it to cables and capacitors comparisons.

I'd also be interested in doing an amp comparison get together using a bunch of the new digital amps. I am sure I can have most of the major players in this market send amps for comparison.

Give me feedback and let me know if you're interested.

[nathanm]

Don't do it!  Just get your buddies together, have a few beers and figure out what music you want to "jam" to.  A cable or capacitor comparison, regardless of which of the 2 or 3 available opinions a person can hold on this matter, is almost as fun as watching the grass grow.  Twenty minutes into the dilligent listening experiment and your guests will be thinking about ways to take their own lives.

[ctviggen]

Danny, if you do this, could you use two pieces of the same equipment (thus taking time delay out of the equation), and publish subjective results?  When I change cables/power cords/whatever, I think there is a difference, but the difference is much smaller than what it's made out to be on here.  So, a good get together (with beer, scotch, bourbon, water, whatever) would be interesting to me.  Care to fly to CT?  I do plan on doing a test shortly, but the sources will be two unmodded SB2s.  These might not be the most revealing sources.

[Kevin Haskins]

I agree with nathanm.   You end up making it into a boring meeting.  It's much more fun to drink beer, tell lies and listen to music.  

If you want to subject your buddies to it I'd gladly send you one of our Hypex amplifier kits.   It would have to be after CES but I could send you the basic UCD-180 kit we sell.   I'm using it at CES so it would have to be after the show.

[Danny Richie]

Hmmm, now that is interesting. The first three responses have been from people outside of this area.

A cable or capacitor comparison, regardless of which of the 2 or 3 available opinions a person can hold on this matter, is almost as fun as watching the grass grow. Twenty minutes into the dilligent listening experiment and your guests will be thinking about ways to take their own lives.

I agree with nathanm. You end up making it into a boring meeting.

I have actually had small groups of guys over in the past for such comparisons and it was anything but boring. I would say it was more enlightening, surprising, educational, and a lot of fun.

To the two of you guys that think it would be boring, what would your expectations be? Or in others words what are your current thoughts on the subjects of capacitors and cables.

Keep in mind, this is not a debate but more of an opinion gathering.

Danny, if you do this, could you use two pieces of the same equipment (thus taking time delay out of the equation), and publish subjective results?

I would try to remove any influences from other factors and I would share the results.

If you want to subject your buddies to it I'd gladly send you one of our Hypex amplifier kits. It would have to be after CES but I could send you the basic UCD-180 kit we sell. I'm using it at CES so it would have to be after the show.

I'll take you up on that.

[kyyuan]

Hmmm, now that is interesting. The first three responses have been from people outside of this area.

I'll take you up on that.

I'll be the first Texan (ok--a country boy originally from Utah) to respond.  

I would be happy participate in this event/Jam session, either as a host or an attendee.  I can't host it for another couple of months, but am happy to do so around late Jan 2006.  

Ken

[nathanm]

That's cool if you're having fun with it.  First you have to define the goal: are we working or playing?  If you're working you're performing a test.  If you're playing you're listening to good music on a kick ass stereo system.  

My own choice would be the playing option.  But if you decide the goal is doing a TEST, no matter how informal it might be, you have to at the very least eliminate SOME bias\variables.  In this case that means listening to the same piece of music over and over.  To me that's incredibly boring.  By definition the testing process is one of repetition.  I dunno about you, but no matter how much I like a song it's unlikely I'd want to repeat it more than twice.  And if I do like it that much my brain is not doing analytical listening anyway.

Testing is fine, but how relevant is it unless all the participants are already familiar with the system and the surroundings?  If I go to a strange place and listen to a whole new system I'm hardly in a position to make meaningful observations about minutia like caps or cables.  If it was me I'd rather play music people like and have fun and leave the lab coat in the closet.  

There's just too much work involved in performing that test, you know the one, with the three letters that gets everyone's undies in a bunch.  Even a sighted test is a bit of a chore.  Testing is useful, but it requires dilligence and it requires analytical listening.  By definition it is somewhat hostile to what I assume the whole purpose of HiFi is: enjoying great sound in the home.  

You can learn plenty about recordings and your hearing and equipment by just listening for fun too.  I just feel comparisons should be more of a personal exercise than a social one.

[nathanm]

Here's another way to put it.  Let's exchange audiophiles for home theater fans.  Let's say you've built this amazing theater setup in your basement and you invite all your friends and family to come check it out.  If the theater fan acted like an audiohpile instead of watching Lord Of The Rings they would loop a five second segment of the Balrog pulling his whip, change some gear back and forth and wax on about which iteration has the best reds.  

[ctviggen]

I don't know, I've been to a NY Rave where I listened to multiple sources, interconnects, DACs, etc.  I personally enjoyed that.  However, I can see where that wouldn't be enjoyable to some people.  For my own edification, I'm going to perform an IC test using two SB2s (not upgraded -- the only sources I have two of) and Reality Cables, Signal Cables, and Bolder Cables.  In the past, I've just replaced components/cables willy-nilly and I would like to hear with my own ears the stunning and miraculous results that can be achieved with interconnects.

[Danny Richie]

ctviggen,

I'd be interested to read about your conclusions.

nathanm, I can understand your thinking, and a comparison as per what you have envisioned might be as boring to you as you think it is if differences were minuet.

However, I do not perform A/B comparisons in that manor, and it is still fun even if conducted as a test.

[arthurs]

I fall into the camp of sometimes with cables.  I have put some in that made a definite difference, and some I wasn't sure did anything.  As an example I had bi-wired my B&W N802's because I really felt they sounded better that way.  When I got my Dunlavy's I just bi-wired them up as well because that's what I had been doing.  A few weeks ago I took off the top wires and went to jumpers and the speakers sounded remarkably better, I'm not knowledgable enough to take a stab at why I just know it was definite and readily audible.  

I do happen to have a bunch of cables of different kinds and once we get moved this month I'll have a nice new big listening room.  I could host a cable/capacitor session in January as well.  Good news Danny, I'll be 40 minutes less drive for you....

[Kevin Haskins]

I agree... if you are going to do something that you will report on the Internet as fact you should be responsible and use proper testing methods.  

Doing it properly is going to be boring because proper methods require repetition, DBT, and some sort of good methodology to make the results meaningful.   I'd recommend doing a little research into how these types of test are done by Harmon, and others who have done actual research with a scientifically valid method.

My thoughts about this subject are based upon several observations.   First... I've noticed differences in sound based upon cables, capacitors etc...   I used to experiment much more than I do these days.   I'd change cables and listen, change parts and listen and draw simple conclusions based upon my subjective opinion.   With more time and experience I've noticed a couple things about cables.   Let's limit it to cables because that is where I have the most real listening experience.  I've done some with capacitors also but not in the same detail.

#1.  Sometimes I thought a particular cable combination was a drastic improvement.   Changing equipment had a large correlation with how a particular cable sounded.   In other words.... your results vary with the system or my perception did.

#2.  Sometimes I noticed what I thought was a drastic improvement.   If I removed the cable at a later date and compared again I often had a different impression.   Conclusion:   Either the cable changed with time or my perception did.

This added some frustration to the event for me because I was looking for some sort of method to improve my system and my results varied in unpredictable ways.   I therefore tried blind test where I'd have my wife change things.   She loved that..     If she didn't think I was nuts before that point she did afterwards.    My blind testing was all over the place.   In other words there was no correlation when I was doing the testing blind.

Another side point.   After I went into business selling cables I've found a couple things.   People tend to think the more expensive product sound better.   Many of the people willing to buy expensive cables already where believers in how significant they are in terms of sound quality so that might skew the results.   I also noticed a correlation between how a cable looks (cosmetics) and perceived sound quality.   People think a better-looking cable sounds better than an ugly one.

Last year at RMAF I did a blind test between some Canare L-4ES interconnect and a VERY well respected cable from a high-end cable company.  I prefer not to mention names because I don't want to stir up trouble.    The Canare ones I sell for about $70/pr terminated.   The other cables where a couple thousand dollars a pair.   There where only three of us and it wasn't any kind of valid testing method, more of a seat of the pants tests where we changed things and took a quick listen.   Everyone much preferred my $70 interconnects to the multi-kilo buck one.   Go figure...

The way I feel about it now days is that I choose good cables based upon sound engineering and excellent quality connectors.   Rather than tune a system with cables I have the equipment and knowledge to do it in the crossover.   I can change the way my system sounds without a doubt.  I can measure and try and make some sort of correlation between measurements and sound quality.   All the cables pretty much have no effect on FR so it's difficult to make any correlation besides subjective ones.    I also fiddle more with the room, as I know that changes in the room make measurable changes.  

In electronics I tend to pick parts that I know are good.   I tend to go overkill as long as the price is reasonable.   I'll never use a $500 wooden knob or anything that nuts but I've built a Jung Super Regulator for my op-amp based LT system even though I know the PSRR of opamps is crazy good.   I did so because I wanted to make comparisons and figured I could use the power supply for a number of projects.   It also only cost $20 more than a cheap regulator once the design work for the PCB was done.    I choose expensive opamps ($10 rather than $0.50) but overall, they don't have that large of an effect on the cost of the final product so you may as well use the best.  

I'd never consider many high-end parts for a production item because they add so much to the price of a product and if I cannot measure any difference in performance why should I?   My subjective opinions I consider suspect unless I can do some scientifically valid testing method to confirm them.  I consider them suspect because I’ve found them to be unreliable and my personal inclination is that what I recommend and say about a product should be based upon something with more authority than just my personal subjective opinion.   After all… it has shown without a shadow of a doubt that human perception is terribly unreliable.  

That’s where I stand on the subject.   I’m not convinced there is no difference between cables but unless I can find some valid, repeatable method of categorizing a good one from a bad one I’m not going to make categorical statements about their sound quality.

[Soundbitten]

I fall into the camp of sometimes with cables.  I have put some in that made a definite difference, and some I wasn't sure did anything.  As an example I had bi-wired my B&W N802's because I really felt they sounded better that way.  When I got my Dunlavy's I just bi-wired them up as well because that's what I had been doing.  A few weeks ago I took off the top wires and went to jumpers and the speakers sounded remarkably better, I'm not knowledgable enough to take a stab at why I just know it was definite  ...

What Dunlavys do you own ? I have the Alethas and have had them bi-wired since I got them . The problem is I had the bi-wire cables from my older speakers so I just continued using them . If I just add the jumpers would I get a single wire effect ?

[kyyuan]

I fall into the camp of sometimes with cables.  I have put some in that made a definite difference, and some I wasn't sure did anything.  As an example I had bi-wired my B&W N802's because I really felt they sounded better that way.  When I got my Dunlavy's I just bi-wired them up as well because that's what I had been doing.  A few weeks ago I took off the top wires and went to jumpers and the speakers sounded remarkably better, I'm not knowledgable enough to take a stab at why I just know it was definite  ...

Art...where are you guys moving to?  I see she got her new house.  

Ken

[bhobba]

I apologize if I am butting in or anything like that (I am from Australia) but I find this subject very interesting and can not resist posting a few thoughts.  

When I change cables/power cords/whatever, I think there is a difference, but the difference is much smaller than what it's made out to be on here. .

That is a concern I have as well.  Some reviews suggest it is night and day differences - but the fact controlled testing often can not find a difference tells me that is unlikely the case.  I agree the stress of concentrating on hearing differences can mask subtle differences and other issues of controlled testing but I can not agree that if a night and day difference existed then it would not be picked up in a controlled test.  For the record although I have never heard differences I suspect they do exist because competent people have reported they are able to pick them blind:
http://www.videohifi.com/16_RISCH_ENG.htm
In fact I believe the conclusion is spot on:
'I have personally maintained that the sonic differences between audio cables is of a subtle nature, and not of the "day-and-night" type of difference. However, when we are dealing with one’s personal home playback system, where the listener has become intimately familiar with it’s performance and overall sound, when something does change in such a system, they are going to notice it much more readily than a stranger would, or than someone participating in a blind test at an institute would. In the context of that persons playback system, a cable change might bring about a "night-and-day" difference, because it has pushed the performance of the system past the edge of disbelief of the playback event. If a new set of cables can allow the music to float free of the speakers, and achieve a sense of separate soundstage, while the old cables did not do this, the sound was "stuck" to the speaker locations, then to the owner/listener of that system, that is a "night-and-day" difference, even though in absolute terms, the sonic differences were small.'

So, a good get together (with beer, scotch, bourbon, water, whatever) would be interesting to me.  Care to fly to CT?  I do plan on doing a test shortly, but the sources will be two unmodded SB2s.  These might not be the most revealing sources.

You must always look at the purpose of a get together and design it accordingly.  If it is to have fun - do what you like and say whatever you want - basically stick to its purpose - have fun.  If it is to seriously evaluate something then I think a combination of controlled tests and informal comparisons are required.  Being serious about anything is often boring.  But if you want to spend hard earned dosh (and not regret it) or recommend to others how they might spend theirs then IMHO seriousness is probably best.

Thanks
Bill

[Danny Richie]

So Art, sometime in January at your new place?

We compare cables, caps, and digital amps...  

Make sure the room is well treated and let us use that new bad ass pre-amp,    and I'll try and bring the rest of the gear. Actually I think your amps sounded pretty good with that pre-amp. Hmmm...

[arthurs]

Art...where are you guys moving to? I see she got her new house.  


Ken - We're moving into a bigger place out near Haslet.  Yesss, she got her bigger new house....but I got my 23x20x12 room upstairs (with rounded ceiling seams)for all out audio assault    

It is a win-win in the end.  We're having a large patio with fireplace and pool put in shortly, and then I plan to host a BBQ jam at the first hint of warm weather....or maybe even before then....

[arthurs]

okay Danny, you talked me into it....January it is!!!!  The Dodd with my Cary's is really quite excellent.....very happy with the pairing....now if on ly someone would get on a prototype of some giant ass arrays with separate columns housing multiple woofers.....

[arthurs]

Ken, I never heard back from Marvin, did you guys want to A/B those ELF Helix cables?  I have a pair and if someone can snag them you could do it this weekend.  I won't be able to make the jam unfortunately...packing for the move then have to travel to Austin Sunday....

[arthurs]

soundbitten, I have the SCIV-A's.  If you have a single run, just put your jumpers on....if you have bi-wire built cables you'll need to get some single run, drop me a note I have some I could loan you.....