[Mike C]

I guess I'm just looking for some confirmation, but I have a few questions; sorry if this is long - I'll try to give all relevant info.

My system:
2 channel audio only;
Front ends: Teres tt, Moerch arm, Zyx Airy 3; nOrh cd player
Amp: all tube, phono stage, pre and 300B single ended triode (with some guts)
Present speakers: IPL S3 trans lines (15 years old, not the metal drivers); 6.5 inch SEAS bass driver, soft dome tweeter, 40 ins H x 8 ins W x 10 ins D. LDSG site rates these as two stars, i.e. not very good by today's standards.
Room: 18ft x 14ft x 7.5ft, fairly well furnished.

My tastes:
Delicacy, persuasiveness, great vocals (purity, emotion, sensitivity), tonality, realism.
Ability to work well with valves, esp SET.
Good for orchestral - but need not put an orchestra into my room or put me in the front
row of the hall! Put me near the back and that's OK.
I think I'd like to 'see' individual performers, like a soloist singing, and I don't really get
that at present.
Dislikes: harshness, poor tonality and the kind of artificial bass that makes an orchestra sound like a rock group.

I basically like the present speakers as they do nothing wrong. Bass is somewhat light but it's tuneful, fairly tight and fast, pretty good really. And when I say 'light' I guess that's by comparison to some resonant speakers that I would not want to live with.

So what's wrong? Well, I heard some cheap Eltax speakers and I'd say they are better.
They were small floorstanders with twin 5 inch drivers. In particular they seemed to have quite a bit more detail, and presented fairly smoothly; and the midrange gave a very good presentation of female vocals. I almost bought a pair ....

However, I'm good at woodwork and enjoy DIY so I've decided to go for a kit again, expecting to get improvements from (a) 15 years of progress and (b) kits, especially those in the USA, seem really good these days. I've checked all the usual suspects and have been impressed by the quality (esp compared to the UK).

I have looked in particular at small TLs like the Thor and the Ariel, as TL bass seems a good match for my tastes. I'm not that impressed by some things I read about the Thor, and the Ariel comes out a bit too large for my taste (and WAF comes into it, but I'm in agreement there). I have also considered reflex or MLTL designs like Eros (which seems very good, but I find the baffle too wide for my liking). And some NC units are very close to my spec .... but somehow nothing got me excited.
I also looked into full DIY to take advantage of higher tech materials to get higher sensitivity (Focal drivers, etc); but soon saw  that these need expertise that I don't have in order to design a crossover to fix the problems, then these complex crossovers absorb power and you're back where you started!

So I'm here, as the AV/3 looks such a great match for my needs.

I guess I'm only asking as a sanity check ...

As these are 'listed' as A/V speakers, I guess I need confirmation that they really are high end audio speakers as well. They do seem like it.

They seem very SET friendly; I don't need headbanging volumes, and some of my listening is done at low level. I assume good results with a 7 watt 300B SET? Note, mine has drive nd guts (massive PSU's), to me sounds more 'powerful' than an EL34 p-p amp I have.

I *love* good female vocals and this has to be done well.
Note though, the speaker does not have to 'do' anything; just present what's there properly and neutrally, no addition, no subtraction - as the front ends are very good.
Any comment please?

 Danny I assume you can supply to the UK? I know air mail costs are high but it seems worth it, not a problem to me.

I expect to build the standard tweeter and caps upgrade, but I'm half wondering about the OW1 at some time; might make an interesting development (if I feel I need it, which I probably won't). I assume someone may be able to help with Xover mods if I fancy this?
Any other comment on the idea of an OW1?

Would anyone suggest better inductors, eg going up a gauge size or two even?

I've done quite a bit of research and can't quite believe this speaker can be so good, and such a great match for my needs; hell, if I'd spec'd what I wanted for a custom design, I think this would be IT.

TIA for any info
Mike
in the UK

[Hank]

My short answer is that my A/V-3's are great value for their midrange accuracy.  Your words caught my attention as I thought about my answer:  

great vocals (purity, emotion, sensitivity), tonality, realism

 I believe the A/V-3's will do it for you.  The "V" in "A/V" refers, in my opinion that they will play at movie volume levels without distortion (due to the 2 mid-woofs and TL design).

It would be great if there were a pair in the UK that you could audition, for as you probably know, one man's superspeaker is another man's ho-hum.
Hey, I just made that up!  That could be the next hot phrase in audiodom.

[Watson]

Any other comment on the idea of an OW1?

The OW1 is 3dB less sensitive than the tweeter used in the AV3, so you'd lose 3dB sensitivity by swapping it into the speakers, making them less SET-friendly.  You'd probably be happier sticking with the standard tweeter.

[samplesj]

I'm very happy with the AV3s I built.  They were for my HT system, but I've had them in our den system a few times and I'm really enjoying them for 2 channel too.  I lugged them in when we decorated the Christmas tree so I could use them instead of the Ref1s.  The AV3s are not at all harsh especially compared to those speakers.  I've been really impressed with the vocals espcially on the tubes.

I was driving them with a 5881 pp tube amp rated for 38 watts so they are tube friendly, but I'm not sure about a 7 watt SET.  With lower volume levels and near field you might be ok since they are fairly efficent.

As far as mods/upgrades go, I just sort of assumed that after damping and sonicaps that Danny had already tweaked out as much as was resonable.

If you are looking for a different tweeter, I think the RAW ribbon will eventually be added to the AV3s for a special RAW AV3 kit.

[ooheadsoo]

Any other comment on the idea of an OW1?

The OW1 is 3dB less sensitive than the tweeter used in the AV3, so you'd lose 3dB sensitivity by swapping it into the speakers, making them less SET-friendly.  You'd probably be happier sticking with the standard tweeter.

I'm sure Danny will chime in, but

1) You won't lose sensitivity because Danny's tweeter will be padded to take the sensitivity down to that of the woofers after baffle step compensation, and in either case, that will be less sensitive than either tweeter, and most likely the woofer, as well.

2) You can't just drop it in, anyway, without destroying Danny's xover.

[Watson]

No, in this case the two M130s together have a greater sensitivity than the tweeter.  The AV3's tweeter is not currently padded down, so you would lose sensitivity by swapping in the OW1.

[ooheadsoo]

It'd be interesting to find out from Danny how it works in his series xover.

I think there is an OW variant with slightly more sensitivity.  The OW2, I think.

[bubba966]

I wouldn't worry about the tweater that's in the A/V-3.

I've only had a chance to listen to A/V-3's once (VSAC '03). The rooms at the show sucked, but that speaker was my favorite of the show. It sounded awesome. And cranked plenty, plenty loud (and clean) being driven by the tube amp Danny was using.

And if I was to actually replace the speakers I have now, I'd be doing it with A/V-3's.

And I think the A/V-3 has been improved since the model I heard...

[Danny Richie]

The sensitivity of the A/V-3 is right at 91.5db.

The sensitivity of the OW1 tweeter is only 88db. It would not match well with a pair of M-130/16 woofers as its sensitivity is too low.

Hiquphon also makes an OW2 models but it too has sensitivity on the low side at around 89 or so.

The GR-T2 is a great little tweeter and they do come pre-tested, measured, and in matched pairs.

If you want to one up it then hang in there until January. I will be designing a version of it using Raw Acoustics new ribbon tweeter. It will be called the RA/V-3, and sold through Raw Acoustics.

The A/V-3 currently uses a parallel network. It is our A/V-1 that uses the series network.

Also the GR-T2 has one small value resistor in line with it in the A/V-3 network.

And yes Brian, the A/V-3 has been through a revision since you heard it last and it is even better.

It is very tube amp friendly and you can drive it to good levels with a 7 watt amp in small to medium sized rooms.

Dollar for dollar this one is really tough to beat, and yes we do regularly ship the kits overseas.

[bubba966]

And yes Brian, the A/V-3 has been through a revision since you heard it last and it is even better.

I thought that you'd done something to the design to improve it since I heard it.

I really liked that speaker at VSAC, can't imagine what it's like now...

[Hank]

can't imagine what it's like now...

The current version is a transmission line design, which gives you a bit lower f3, and it has Danny's latest tweeter version.
Very impressive speaker value and as I stated, excellent mid-range.  Just the ticket if you're into "Chicks singing"  

[Danny Richie]

"Chicks singing"

 Ah, ha, ha, ha...    

I had a CD full of really good female vocals, and when Hank asked me about it, I called it "chicks singing".  

[Hank]

I had a CD full of really good female vocals

And he played one song over and over and over again!    I had it memorized by the end of the day.  After that, whenever Danny took out a CD, I'd say:  "It's not that chicks singing CD again is it?!

[Mike C]

many thanks for the great answers and information; I am fully reassured on all points and it really does seem that this speaker was custom designed for me! I'll contact Danny in the new year to order. Earlier this year I planned to build speakers this winter but could not find the right design or kit (don't know how I missed this one!). Now I'm on a bigger project and have some commitments, but expect to have free time in February. So I may wait for the new drivers anyway ... but I will definitely build the standard version.
My DIY tube audio efforts have shown that a great design built with standard components is far superior to an average design built with expensive 'boutique' components, and I'm sure the same applies to speakers.

This 'chicks singing' thing has got me interested!

Now some of the 'chicks' I like are Kiri te Kanawa, Catherine Bott, Erna Spoorenberg, Frederica von Stade, Emma Kirkby etc and I'm not sure if 'chick' is quite appropriate! Lovely voices though ... even though I'm not really into opera, I do appreciate singing of this quality.

But my tastes also run to other styles, with favourites such as Jennifer Warnes, Kate Wolf, Nicola Hitchcock, Sandy Denny, Zoe Lewis and many other folk/pop/rock singers. And even as far as some middle of the road things like Julie London and Doris Day (but only really her 'Latin for Lovers' LP which is a bit special).

OK, you've got me interested; care to tell us what this 'chicks singing' CD is?
If I like it, then knowing it comes over well on the AV/3 will confirm my choice of speaker!

Ta and regards
Mike

[danm]

You won't be dissapointed! I was just listening to some Tori Amos followed by some Evanessence the other night, these speakers REALLY nail the midrange and give you the 'singer in your room' sensation. Great design

[IronForge]

"Chicks singing"

 Ah, ha, ha, ha...    

I had a CD full of really good female vocals, and when Hank asked me about it, I called it "chicks singing".  

Is there any way to get a copy of this with a purchase of a kit?

[Hank]

Ha-ha, the Chicks Singing CD is about to get a status of its own.  Guys, it was just a CD that Danny burned of various contemporary female singers.  Pick any of your favorites.  It wasn't an audiophile recording, but a mix of what Danny liked and the important thing was the test of naturalness of reproduction of the speakers.  Be careful, the chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so if you have a preamp or power amp or source component that colors the midrange, then the software doesn't matter.  But you know that  

[Mike C]

Here's a few of my personal favourites if anyone is interested.
I've left out what I'll call the 'standard' choices to concentrate on the unusual, perhaps obscure; that way I perhaps hope to broaden people's tastes ....

In no particular order:
Nicola Hitchcock, CD called 'A Bowl of Chalk'. Expressive, sometimes breathy, interesting songs, I keep coming back to this as my favourite CD of the last 3 years. Out of print but available if you search (eg Amazon).
Carol Laula - Precious Little Victories; folkish, rock ish and with a tinge of jazz. Again, hard to find but worth the search.
Rita Connolly; various CDs but her best is LP 'Granuaile'. Soprano with an excellent voice; Granuaile is folk style with orchestra and pipes, a concept album (I usually hate such things!) and excellent with it.
Jennifer Warnes - Shot through the Heart. By far her best IMHO, though other things by her are better known. Subtle, persuasive.
Kathryn Williams - gorgeous voice, subtle music, lovely stuff.
Meav - Irish, sort of folk/rock, but oh what a voice!
Arianna Savall - Bella Terra. Listened yesterday and WOW! Quiet, gentle, voice and harp, sung in Spanish, superb.
Madeleine Peyroux  - both her CDs are excellent;she's getting well known now, I actually found her latest in a normal shop.
Zoe Lewis, Fishbone Wishbone Funnybone. Yes, a bit odd as you'd expect but some songs are very delicate, persuasive, emotional, and she really does have a voice.
Hollie Smith - Light from a Distand Shore. Recent so there's info around, have a search.
Tara MacLean - Passenger. I'm in two minds about this, sometimes I love it, sometimes not!
And probably my favourite:
Loreena McKennitt.
Oh what a subtle expressive voice, I just melt away listening to her.
Best CDs are The Visit   and  the mask and mirror, but I've recently listened to 'To Drive the Cold Winter Away' and love that one to bits as well.

I've left many great things out; must stop somewhere!
I just hope people find this of interest.

[jjb]

Enough with chicks singing!!! The best use for the AV-3 is Home Theater, being a long time AV-3 owner & and GR fan (built one of Danny's first AV-3 designs) and proud owner of the new transmission line AV-3 they are clearly one the best performing speakers. I will say that the 2% of the time that I play two channel music the clarity, and sound stage are outstanding, or better yet watch Phantom of the Opera. Enough I hope this person builds the AV 3 and joins the club...

[Hank]

Trust me, he WILL come over to the bright side.  I built the original A/V-3 design for a local customer 3 years ago, and now I have the current design as my HT speakers, and nobody has criticized them yet.  Best value combo speaker, IMHO.

Onward through the fog towards dipoles...