Running system off of a power conditioner

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lupodwdm21

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Running system off of a power conditioner
« on: 28 Nov 2005, 03:32 pm »
So, I've heard different things about running an entire system off of a power conditioner.  (Not just a surge suppressor, but a full blown APC power conditioner that has battery backup and provides a true 120 volt output)  On the plus side I have heard that it is nice to give a true 120 to your components but on the downside I have hear that a conditioner can limit the amount of current the amp can draw during high power transients.  Is it a good idea?  The UPS can handle over 2500 watts so it should have no problem handling the power requirements of my system.

Thanks!

aggielaw

Running system off of a power conditioner
« Reply #1 on: 29 Nov 2005, 05:45 am »
I'm running my entire system - except the sub - off an APC S10 unit.  It sounds great.  I hear a difference running through the APC; everything sounds a little more refined I guess.  Maybe this is due to a quieter floor due to the conditioner and steady current; I don't know.  

The devices running from the APC are: Cary 303/300, McCormack RLD-1 Platinum and McCormack DNA-125 Platinum.  

I did try running only the amp directly from the wall, and there was a small difference, but I can't say it was positive or negative; just different.  I'll take the equipment protection and refined sound, thank you very much.   :)

Good luck.

Howard

lbo

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Inductor - based power conditioners
« Reply #2 on: 30 Nov 2005, 02:59 pm »
here is why inductor-based power conditioners don't work well for your typical power amplifiers.

A linear power supply works by first rectifing the ac mains (fed through the 2ndary of a power transformer) and then feed it to a filter capacitor. The rectifier, which allows the current to flow only in one direction, charges up the capacitor, and the capacitor maintains rail voltage when the rectifier is not conducting.

the problem this combination creates is that a) to have as constant a rail voltage as possible for high power applications, you need to have as big of a capacitor so that it stores as much energy. b) as the rail voltage gets more stable, the time during which the rectifier can conduct gets shorter. However, the same amount of energy has to be passed onto the capacitor (and then to the load) in a shorter period of time through the rectifier, the current going through the rectifier gets progressively higher - in spite of the fact that the current in RMS terms is the same.

As the current burst gets shorter in duration and higher in magnitude, the "high frequency" content of it gets bigger - this is sometimes referred to as the "RF" problem in a low frequency rectification.

What is an inductor? in this context, you can think of it as a frequency-dependent resistor, a resistor that has higher "resistance" for high frequency signals, and lower "resistance" for low frequency signals. so a high frequency signal will lose more as it goes through an inductor - this is why an inductor can eliminate high frequency signals from your ac mains - or "clean it up" as some of us likes to call it. As you can see, a bigger inductor (with higher inductance) will do a more effective job at cleaning up the dirty mains.

Here is foundamentally the issue here: good rectification for high power applications calls for constant rail voltage, which necessarily creates high frequency content, which has more difficulties get passed through an effective power conditioners. or the power supply gets choked by the power conditioners.

Here is some spice simulation for you to see it visually.

This is a typical power supply. As we are only interested in a half cycle, I used half wave rectification and we shall focus on the positive cycle - the negative half in a typical bridge rectification is identical.



V1 is the power source from your transformer secondary. It is a 42vp 50hz signal with no DC content. V2 is our "pollutant" that we will talk about later. D5, MUR860, is our rectifier. This is an ultra-fast type used quite often in high-end audio applications. C1 is the filter cap, with 11,000uf capacitance (again, quite typical). I1, is the load, with 4amp average current drain, and 4amp current swing, and at 20khz - kind like a 32v 20khz signal on a 8ohm speaker.

The blue probe shows the voltage on the rectifier's anode side, and the organce probe shows the rail voltage. the green probe shows the current going through the rectifier. As you can see, we are getting about 40vdc out of this setup. the repeatitive peak current through the rectifier is about 50amp, in spite of the fact that our average load is only 4amp.

Also notice how big the initial charge-up current is: ~140amp!

Let's now pollute the nice ac mains with a 10vp 1khz signal - this is actually roughly the amount of high frequency signal generated by the rectification but that's for another discussion.

Here is again the waveform.



the inductor, L1, is very small at 10uh so it is as if it is not in the loop. Notice that when the voltage from the 2ndary (the blue probe) is quite dirty, the rail voltage (the organge probe) is unaffected, at about 40vdc. This shows you why a power conditioner is NOT needed for rectification.

Peak current through the rectifier, the green probe, has higher peak figures because of the 50% duty cycle of the pollution.

the take-away? a) you don't need a power conditioners to get a nice rail voltage out of "polluted" mains; b) a small inductor is ultterly ineffective in blocking the pollution; and c) such an ineffective inductor does the power supply no harm.

Now, let's up the size of the inductor to 10mh - which is about the typical inductance of a medium power transformer's primary winding.

Again, here is the waveform.



A few things of interest:

a) the conduction period for the rectifier has greatly been extended, and the peak current greatly reduced. the repeatitive peak current is about 10amp through the rectifier, and the rectifier is conducting almost during the entire half cycle. This is due to the fact that the inductor is essentially storing energy during the half cycle and gradually releasing it to load through the rectifier.

This is all good as it reduces EMI radiation.

b) the rail voltage has greatly been reduced as well: because of the low peak current (10amp vs. 50amp when no power conditioner is used), there is less energy being sent to the capacitor and thus lower rail voltage: at a pultry 20vdc, about 50% lower. This is the issue we discussed earlier: the inductor is choking the power supply to death. or the current limiting others have talked about.

c) the larger inductor does a wonderful job at cleaning up the pollution: look at how clean the voltage on the secondary is during the half cycle when the rectifier is conducting.

Unfortunately, it is the "cleaning" that also killed the power supply's ability to provide the correct rail voltage.

Hopefully, you will conclude by now that a) you don't need a power conditioner for your power supply to work; and b) for an inductor-based power conditioner to be effective at cleaning up the mains, it has to have a negative impact on your power supply.

JohnR

Running system off of a power conditioner
« Reply #3 on: 30 Nov 2005, 03:07 pm »
What happens if C1 has a non-zero ESR?

lbo

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Running system off of a power conditioner
« Reply #4 on: 30 Nov 2005, 03:15 pm »
Quote from: JohnR
What happens if C1 has a non-zero ESR?


your charge-up current will be lower and your rail voltage fluctuation will be higher. In this case, your repeatitive charge-up current is about 40amp.



I used a 100mohm resistor to simulate an ESR, more on the high-side for a quality 11,000uf capacitance.

This actually raises a very good point on many small capacitors vs. one large capacitor. but it shall have its own thread.

JohnR

Running system off of a power conditioner
« Reply #5 on: 30 Nov 2005, 03:20 pm »
Sorry, I meant with V2 set to an amplitude of 10 as in your second and third pics - ?

lbo

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Running system off of a power conditioner
« Reply #6 on: 30 Nov 2005, 03:26 pm »
Quote from: JohnR
Sorry, I meant with V2 set to an amplitude of 10 as in your second and third pics - ?


the same directional but non-substantive change: charge-up current down and ripple up, slightly.

with a 10mh inductor:


with a 10uh inductor:

lbo

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Re: Inductor - based power conditioners
« Reply #7 on: 30 Nov 2005, 03:35 pm »
Quote from: lbo
A linear power supply works by first rectifing the ac mains (fed through the 2ndary of a power transformer) and then feed it to a filter capacitor. The rectifier, which allows the current to flow only in one direction, charges up the capacitor, and the capacitor maintains rail voltage when the rectifier is not conducting.


here is a easier-to-see picture for that.

3300uf filter cap:


It is the same circuitry with a 3300uf filter capacitor. Compare and contrast this with the waveform where a 11,000uf filter cap is used.

11,000uf filter cap:



As you can see, the rectifier is only conducting current when the secondary voltage (blue) than the rail voltage (organge). In this case, because the smaller capacitor can hold less charge, the rail voltage dips significantly, creating more time for the rectifier to conduct, thus lower peak current through the rectifier.

So here is your basic delimma for a linear power supply: to get  high quality rail voltage, you need large capacitors. Using large capacitors will create more HF content, which is more likely to be picked up by your amplifier (CMRR and PSRR is usually considerably lower at higher frequencies), which degrades sound quality.

Another proof that you cannot have your cake and eat it all.

JohnR

Running system off of a power conditioner
« Reply #8 on: 30 Nov 2005, 04:46 pm »
Can you display just the rail voltage and zoom in on it? How does it look?

Here's mine:



(10 uH inductor, 1kHz voltage source turned on, using an "ideal diode." I have delayed the 20kHz current AC by 20 ms.)

lbo

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Running system off of a power conditioner
« Reply #9 on: 30 Nov 2005, 05:16 pm »
Quote from: JohnR
Can you display just the rail voltage and zoom in on it? How does it look?


I am surprised to see your capacitor gets discharged by the 10khz pollution when the capacitor is generally being charged up by the 50hz mains: the discharge there should be consistent with the normal discharging.

Here is mine: 10uh inductor, no esr, mur860, 10v 10khz pollution, on 20khz load, no delay.


ctviggen

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Running system off of a power conditioner
« Reply #10 on: 30 Nov 2005, 06:26 pm »
But can't you mitigate the effects of the higher peak current through the diodes when using the larger cap?  Heck, just moving the power supply farther from the rest of the circuit should do so, as the radiative effects should be proportional to the square of the distance from the diodes.  Moreover, what's worse -- HF effects or low voltage on the power supply rails?

lbo

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Running system off of a power conditioner
« Reply #11 on: 30 Nov 2005, 06:54 pm »
Quote from: ctviggen
Moreover, what's worse -- HF effects or low voltage on the power supply rails?


that really isn't the point of this discussion so if you want you can open up a new thread and I am happy to share my view on that.

The point here is that it is quite useless to use an inductor based "power conditioner" in a linear power supply.

Even funnier is those "balancing" power conditioners (which are nothing but two reverse wired transformers). Any one who knows anything about electricity distribution will immediately notice its similarity to the grid. Effectively, you have a build-in, multi-level, "balancing" power conditioners as long as you are connected to a grid, all free of charge for you, :).

Another point of consideration here is that low ESR is also a double-edged sword.

_scotty_

Running system off of a power conditioner
« Reply #12 on: 30 Nov 2005, 06:59 pm »
Quote
Here is foundamentally the issue here: good rectification for high power applications calls for constant rail voltage, which necessarily creates high frequency content, which has more difficulties get passed through an effective power conditioners. or the power supply gets choked by the power conditioners.

What kind of power conditioner does not have the aforementioned problem.

  Scotty

Occam

Running system off of a power conditioner
« Reply #13 on: 30 Nov 2005, 07:15 pm »
Ibo -



so far so good. We see above the voltage and current waveforms for a single rail rectifier fed pristine mains voltage. What conclusions can we draw from comparing the with inductor and without inductor versions?



and now you've injected a 10v 1kz noise signal. Looks icky, doesn't it? I've no doubt this is an inadvertant ommission, but I don't see the non inductor version with that same injection of that 10v 1kz noise source. I certainly hope you're not expecting anyone to draw conclusions without also seeing the ommitted graphics. [EDIT - It would also be nice if in addition to showing graphs for the same input signal(s), you do the same for characteristics, such as the capacitor's ESR. TIA]

But other that showing the rudimentry elements of a switching buck boost converter, I don't follow as to what you're trying to demonstrate. If you're trying to demonstrate why LC post rectifier smoothing is not appropriate for a high powered class AB poweramplifier, I'd really suggest you move the inductor to after the diode and before the capacitor. This will indeed demonstrate that LC filters can be very effective for a class A constant load, and far less so for a class AB load.

But if your intent was to address the issue of inductors with respect to powerconditioners, you might attempt to choose a model that is actually in the 'ballpark'..... the series inductor and following shunt capacitance goes before transformer in a linear supply, and the typical CMCs and caps in a switching supply.

I'm really not sure what your posts are attempting to demonstrate, as there seems to be a logical disconnect.  You're certainly not modeling LCs (either single coil or common mode) used in powerconditioners, but rather illustrating -
a. Boys with their toys
and
b. GIGO

FWIW

lbo

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Running system off of a power conditioner
« Reply #14 on: 30 Nov 2005, 07:45 pm »
Quote from: _scotty_
What kind of power conditioner does not have the aforementioned problem.

  Scotty


the pfc type for example does not rely on an inductor but it has its own set of problems.

lbo

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Running system off of a power conditioner
« Reply #15 on: 30 Nov 2005, 07:54 pm »
Quote from: Occam
and now you've injected a 10v 1kz noise signal. Looks icky, doesn't it? I've no doubt this is an inadvertant ommission, but I don't see the non inductor version with that same injection of that 10v 1kz noise source. I certainly hope you're not expecting anyone to draw conclusions without also seeing the ommitted graphics.


If you are still asking for that, you don't need to be in this discussion: the case was presented together with one of those charts, you only need to understand it.

But for your curiosity, here it is:



does that look familiar to you? :)

Quote from: Occam
But other that showing the rudimentry elements of a switching buck boost converter,


you ought to learn electronics 101 first. "Buck boost converter"! you aren't even in the same galaxy.

the rest of your personal attacks needs to reply.

Occam

Running system off of a power conditioner
« Reply #16 on: 30 Nov 2005, 08:53 pm »
Sooooo.......



now that we've comparable data, I'd like to ask you (as Moderator of this Circle), what specific conclusions might we draw from the graphs?
Under what specific circumstances would the behavior of the inductor based circuit be problematic?
In what way can we extend those conclusions based upon this 'model' with respect to LCs in an ACTUAL powerconditioning role ahead of a power supply?

DO NOT post on anything else prior to a full response to the above questions.

PS - Please do not denigrate balanced powerconditioning based upon your ascessment of Felicia. Admittedly, Felicia only makes sense based upon the low cost availablity of those surplus transformers and extending a 70+ yr old method of jury rigging isolation transformers. But there are fine balancing conditioners that use single transformers (Equitech, BPT, Dodd, etc...) that are extremely effective that do not suffer from terminal kludginess.  You might do well by actually familiarizing yourself on the principals of balanced powerconditioners -
http://www.equitech.com/articles/articles.html

Similarly, you might actually listen to and evaluate a balancing conditioner based upon whatever metrics you see fit. Likewise, an evaluation of a purely L & C based conditioner, such as the Audience Adept might prove an ear opener.

lbo

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Running system off of a power conditioner
« Reply #17 on: 30 Nov 2005, 09:09 pm »
Quote from: Occam
now that we've comparable data, I'd like to ask you ...


the answers have been given, in an earlier post.

If you still cannot find it in the next week, come back here and we will dicuss further.

Dismissed.

Occam

Running system off of a power conditioner
« Reply #18 on: 30 Nov 2005, 09:29 pm »
Quote from: lbo
Quote from: Occam
now that we've comparable data, I'd like to ask you ...


the answers have been given, in an earlier post.

If you still cannot find it in the next week, come back here and we will dicuss further.

Dismissed.


Dismissed? OK.

Not your call. You were asked a question by the Moderator, and you've chosen not to comply. Your call. But until such time as this Moderator is satisfied, all your subsequent posts anywhere in the Lab forum will be moved to the Wastebin.

Feel free to post in other circles where its some other facilitators problem.

Sintz

Running system off of a power conditioner
« Reply #19 on: 30 Nov 2005, 09:50 pm »
Wow. That guy just joined the circle and obviously doesn't realize that ACircle forums hold a higher standard of respect for others.  :nono: