[jasonc]

I'm not sure what to do here?  I currently own an Arcam DV29 which I find amazing.  It has easily surpased my two prior DVD players a Pioneer DV59i and an Onkyo DV-SP1000 in video and audio as well (yes it sounds better than the Onkyo).  But, because everything is connected to a 7yr old low end Monster power conditioner that I believe cost me around $50.00 I know my system is not being fully optimized to sound and look it's best.  I also don't have the extra money laying around to upgrade to something great in the power conditioning deptartment.
So here's my delema, do I sell the DV29 and with the money buy I a very good power conditioner such as the BPT BP 2.5 and then spend the rest on a good but not great dvd player (pioneer, denon etc..) or do I hold onto the Arcam and save a little and buy a new but modest power conditioner?  In other words, how much of an effect does good power conditioning have, just how important is it?  I live in a typical suburb in MA.
BTW, the Arcam retails for 3k and I would most likely sell it for around 2K.
Thanks.

[warnerwh]

A power conditioner will not be a sonic upgrade. Don't sell your good player to get a different power conditioner.  I seriously doubt you'd notice anything with a different power conditioner but getting a better one won't hurt anything either.  You definitely don't want to get a different digital player though.

[rosconey]

if you want go to -digitallyunique -and take a look at the new belkin pureav pf40-i just orderd one for 170 delivered-

[djbnh]

if you want go to -digitallyunique -and take a look at the new belkin pureav pf40-i just orderd one for 170 delivered-

I've had trouble with digitally unique - they had the Belkin PF60 at a very nice price, then they didn't have it in stock, and now it's completely off the web site.

Go to this link for more adventures regarding the PF60, digitally unique, et al. I note the PF60 has a level of programmability not found in the PF40; however, it seems from checking around that the asking price of the PF60 has almost doubled in the past couple weeks, at least in the places that have it in stock.

[mgalusha]

I mostly agree. I am a big fan of balanced power. Depending on your system and electrical enviroment (how grungy your mains are) a good balanced power system can make a large improvement. BPT and Equi=Tech make nice stuff as do others. Bolder Cables offers the Equi=Tech Son of Q Jr. for $650 and BPT offers the BP-1 for $799. For the price I think the Equi=Tech is a better buy. Higher capacity and more features. I think it retails for $750, nearly the same as the BPT.

If you can swing it, I'd keep the Arcam and try balanced power. Just my $0.02 worth.

mike

[Occam]

Jason,

I've yet to hear a line powered component that hasn't benefited substantially from the proper powerconditioning, such as BPT or Audience. But good commercial conditioners are quite expensive. I can't comment on the Belkins, Monsters, Tripplites, etc.... other than say from my limited exposure, they're substantially worse than a OneAC/Powervars, which in turn are mediocre in comparison to those BPTs and Audience Adepts.

Hereabouts in NYC, many consider good powerconditioning madatory.

That being said, keep the CD/DVD player that pleases you, and audition conditioners prior to buying. A 'powerconditioner' that doesn't improve your audio, is a poor bargain, even if you can buy it a 70% discount.

[Tbadder1]

Some manufactures, most notably ARC, still claim that the best power conditioning is no conditioning.  Keep the Arcam at all cost.  Unless you've got a discernible problem don't worry too much.  Be patient and something in your price range down the line will appear on Audiogon.

[JLM]

In my limited experience problems with power are very localized.  

Currently I'm in a very "low risk" situation (rural, have our own underground service with dedicated transformer, no nearby industries, audio system on three dedicated circuits that share a common ground in a newly completed house, and I run battery powered DAC/amp).

Years ago at a previous address (older suburban house with suspect wiring, no industry nearby) a friend brought over his PS300 and it made little difference.

I've heard what crummy power (older light industrial neighbor) can do and it was noticable after the factories shut down for the evening.

[Danny Richie]

Can't comment on your source and discussion regrading it, but I recently added a balanced power supply to my system and love it.

See some info and discussion on it here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=22933

Third post down...

And I am not a dealer or distributor for these either.

[hmen]

The BP 2.5 made a major, noticeable difference in my system. It was a much larger improvement than I ever got from a new source component.

[lcrim]

I'm also a big fan of balanced power.  I don't know if isolation transformers actually help but in beautiful NJ, a balanced power transformer made an audible improvement in my system.
As mgalusha mentioned, the Equitech Son of Q Jr. which Bolder has been selling for $650 also allows you to segregate a particularly dirty device in terms of EMI or RFI as in a switch mode power supply from other devices by filters.  If I were buying power conditioning today, this is the way I would go.
Just playing devil's advocate, while I am also a big fan of Arcam gear, in terms of sound quality, PC audio via a modded Squeezebox 3 might just be better and a lot cheaper.  The OPPO DVD player, if you have a display that has an digital input, provides an upscaled picture that is terrific and its also cheap as hell.  If you didn't want  to keep the Arcam, $2000 buys some serious quality.  Food for thought.

[jasonc]

Thanks for all the input!  
Seems a bit split with those of you swearing by good power conditioning and the other side not putting as much stock in it.  
A big factor to this is probrobly the grid your sharing, as was mentioned a system in NYC will see a pretty obvious quality boost from clean and balanced power whereas a system in a new house in the backwoods of NH not so much.  Is it that easy or are there more factors?
As I stated though my system does sound good to me, and compared to my old apartment in Boston it does sound cleaner living in a rural town.  However, sound definitely takes a step forward late at night which got me thinking of good conditioning in the first place.
Still not sure what to do?
If I do sell the Arcam that will give me a lot of good choices.  To state the obvious I just don't want to take a step backward I'd like to take my system to a better place.

[Sintz]

Aren't there inexpensive products available to allow you to "hear" the noise/garbags on YOUR mains? Spending $50 on a device like this to determine if your mains are dirty enough to validate the use of a $500-$1000 power conditioner might be the way to go. Afterall, you can get a LOT of music for $500!

I use no power conditioning other than a passive Pi filter on my front end (pre, CD, EQ), but not on my amp or sub.

I'm trying to remember where I saw this device. If I remember correctly, you plugged it into the wall and it subharmonized the noise on the AC line so you could hear it.

[PhilNYC]

I'd get a dedicated AC line before spending money on a power conditioner.  Dedicated line is often less expensive to install and (in my experience) has a bigger impact on the sound quality of your system.

[PhilNYC]

I'm trying to remember where I saw this device. If I remember correctly, you plugged it into the wall and it subharmonized the noise on the AC line so you could hear it.

It's called the Noise Sniffer from AudioPrism.  I have one.  It's fun!  

http://www.audioprism.com/noisesniffer.html

[mcrespo71]

I'm trying to remember where I saw this device. If I remember correctly, you plugged it into the wall and it subharmonized the noise on the AC line so you could hear it.

It's called the Noise Sniffer from AudioPrism.  I have one.  It's fun!  

http://www.audioprism.com/noisesniffer.html

Phil- you are the epitome of cool with that statement!  

[PhilNYC]

Phil- you are the epitome of cool with that statement!  

Eh...it certainly makes me the epitome of something...

 

[DVV]

A power conditioner will not be a sonic upgrade. Don't sell your good player to get a different power conditioner.  I seriously doubt you'd notice anything with a different power conditioner but getting a better one won't hurt anything either.  You definitely don't want to get a different digital player though.

A power conditioner WILL be a great sonic upgrade.

But we have a few problems here. Exactly what is a power "condtioner"? What does "conditioning" the power mean at all?

Next, we have so many to choose from. Surely, not all will be ideal, some will have large effects, some smaller, some will be reasonably priced, others will be outrageously priced. So we need to set some boundaries here.

In short, we need to define a few things before we give sweeping comments.

Before anyone mentions it, it's only fair that I say it myself - I manufacture power filters. Not conditioners, they are not given to condtions, they are of fascist nature and indiscriminately cut whatever needs to be cut beacuse it's not supposed to be there. If I didn't believe, mostly from first hand experience, that power line filters DO make a difference with the vast majority of products, I would certainly not be making them.

Please note the key words - "vast majority". It's also true that some power conditioners work poorly, it's true that some work better with some and wrose with other products, but it's also true that some product work markedly worse with ANY filter.  Some electronics designers actually use power line noise to mask their own shortcomings - very famous, very expensive.

Obviously, all trade marked names have been ommitted on purpose.

Conclusion: whichever power line "conditioner" you go for, do try it before buying. In fact, try as many as you can, because that's the ONLY way to know which is best for you.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

I'd get a dedicated AC line before spending money on a power conditioner.  Dedicated line is often less expensive to install and (in my experience) has a bigger impact on the sound quality of your system.

Unfortunately, you obviously haven't tried some serious power line filters, or you wouldn't have written the above statement. A famous name, and/or a hefty price tag mean nothing, in this world and market, they are only probabilities. And ego boosters sometimes.

A dedicated power line may solve your power requirement problems in a better way than the standard lines, but this is true only if the incoming power line, the master input, is substantially more capable than the local in house lines. If not, than adding a stretch of high quality wiring, preceded by poor quality wiring, is an insane waste of money.

That dedicated power line, where does the power for it come from? If it comes from the general grid, as it does, than it carries all the same junk and trash than any other power line does. In that case, going for better wiring will change nothing but the output impedance of the socket, which is beneficial, no doubt, but could hardly be called a significant gain (unless it replaces a ridiculously thin and poor wire).

However, a power line filter will do two things: it will reduce the level of power borne noise, present in ALL grids all over the world, no exceptions, and it will change the output impedance specification of the wall outlet from the amplifier's point of view. How well it does these things is another matter, and certainly not all are equal. But, assuming it filters well and does not introduce any nasties, it will be beneficial to ALL system components, and will thus be the most critical upgrade anyone can make.

Of course, it's a lot more complicated than that, but this is the general idea.

Cheers,
DVV

[PhilNYC]

Unfortunately, you obviously haven't tried some serious power line filters, or you wouldn't have written the above statement. A famous name, and/or a hefty price tag mean nothing, in this world and market, they are only probabilities. And ego boosters sometimes..

I've tried quite a few of various brands, designs, and price tags.  None made an impact greater in my system than getting my dedicated AC lines.  Are there particular ones that you feel are ones I should try?  I've tried units from Audience, Shunyata, BPT, Blue Circle, Richard Gray's, Fuhrman, Equi-tech, and a few others I can't remember.  (FWIW, I use the Audience unit in my reference system now).

A dedicated power line may solve your power requirement problems in a better way than the standard lines, but this is true only if the incoming power line, the master input, is substantially more capable than the local in house lines. If not, than adding a stretch of high quality wiring, preceded by poor quality wiring, is an insane waste of money.

I thought that the point of getting a dedicated line had to do with isolating the line from other appliances (lights, other outlets) on the circuit (and not much to do with the quality of the wiring).  On my power line conditioner, I have a voltage meter.  Before the dedicated line, I was getting voltage swings of +/- 6 volts.  After the dedicated line was installed, the voltage swings were reduced to about +/-2 volts.  In my case, I used 12awg Romex, and it cost me less to install than most of the power conditioners I have tried.

However, a power line filter will do two things: it will reduce the level of power borne noise, present in ALL grids all over the world, no exceptions, and it will change the output impedance specification of the wall outlet from the amplifier's point of view. How well it does these things is another matter, and certainly not all are equal. But, assuming it filters well and does not introduce any nasties, it will be beneficial to ALL system components, and will thus be the most critical upgrade anyone can make.  

Yep, I never said that a power conditioner was not necessary.  I use them on my systems even with dedicated lines.  I was simply saying that in my experience, installing a dedicated line did more to improve my system for less money...