[DVV]

We have reviewed many an aspect of audio, and always stumbled over prices. There are many ways to look at them - some like myself feel there are far too many rip-offs (for amny reasons: more and more product price is invested in adevrtising, the extreme goodwill of the manufacturer to make heaps of money quickly, etc) although I do acknowledge that some simply must be expensive in view of how they have been built, etc.

Others feel, whether they say it or nor, whether they are aware of it or not, that if it isn't expensive, it can't be good. Agree or not, this begs the question - what is "expensive", and consequently, what is not?

Still others think that by tinkering and investing $15, they can duplicate, even surpass, gear costing $1,500.

I could go on and on, but you read this forum just as I do, so you know as much as I do.

But I feel discussing the price, in terms of absolute amounts, as well as just how we think it's warranted or not, deserves its own discussion. Lety me start if off with my views in brief.

I feel most mid and high priced products are in fact overpriced, i.e. cost too much for what they offer. I blame escalating advertising costs for this; cutthroat competition is forcing the manufacturers to advertise more and more, which in turn inflates their product prices.

I feel some are really way out with their prices; they offer no more than standard quality for sky high prices - in short, I feel they are thieves.

Lastly, I feel there are quite a few companies out there, mostly small and living on the edges of the audio world, who are still trying hard to keep their prices down and their sound quality up. Some (e.g. NAD, Rotel, Harman/Kardon, etc) are in the mainstream, but still adhere to sound policies (pun intended).

That's it. Gentlemen, the floor is yours.

Cheers,
DVV

[tmd]

I often wonder why I am so enthusiastic about this hobby.
Sometimes it's because I am a gear head and audio is one of many vices I have, along with handheld computer devices, motorcycles, computers, robotics and so on.
Sometimes it is about the search for a better sound. Not the search for the perfect sound but a better sound. I really like the idea of making my system do something better.
Sometimes (although not nearly as often as it should be) it is about the music. I forget all the other stuff and just get sucked into the moment. I can float in it for a long time.
However, probably the most compelling reason for me to keep tinkering is value for money. In some strange and perverse way, I really want to find the ultimate value for money system. Whether that is one that costs $100 and sounds like a $1,000 or one that costs $10,000 and sounds like $100k I am not sure. It would give me great satisfaction to get incredible performance out of a value for money set up.
It is probably partly to do with feeling I am a smarter shopper than the guy who plonks down big money with a dealer because it looks nice or is very expensive, or a glossy magazine says it sounds great or is on their A list or something.
I also think it is a nod to the guys who create this equipment. A way to help them get the message out.
Of course the ultimate here would be to be able to design something and build it for peanuts and for it to trounce the big dollar equipment.

Neil.

[ABEX]

Best Bang For The Buck!
As a consumer looking to get the most for my hard earned $$ about 15 yrs. ago I decided to get all my gear from modified from stock units.With the exception of a few pieces I have all modded stuff.My speakers being the main modified pieces.

You can get better this way ,getting close to SOTA without spending tons of $$.It still amazes me when I go to listen to gear costing tons of green that irritates me to listen to.Before 3 mins usually I say thanks I've heard enough!But I always walk away smileing knowing what little I dide pay was worth the exhaustive effort I put in trying to find that particular piece.

JMO and experience!  

[cjr888]

Interesting thread..  Here's where I don't know how to shut up or edit.

some like myself feel there are far too many rip-offs (for amny reasons: more and more product price is invested in adevrtising, the extreme goodwill of the manufacturer to make heaps of money quickly, etc

Agree/disagree.

Lots of snakeoil?  You betcha.  Sometimes I see audio advertisements and have to wonder if the people previously were either in the informercial business or multi level marketing.  Problem is that the target audience is completely different, but they have things in common....as businesses in both areas are still running.  So people are buying the crap.  Sometimes surprised that when I see the informercial for the Pastal Chef or the Flobee that when they cut to the "But wait!  There's more!" part, that they're going to say that they'll throw in for free audio tweak.

Rip-offs -- Yes I would agree that there's a decent amount out there.  When I say that, I mean primarily at the very high end of the cost spectrum.  I call it a rip off because compared to say some things I own, it may be alright, but no where near other things at the same price point, and it isn't even that great (Read as: I wasn't impressed).

Yes, there are also rip offs at every price point.

But here's the thing -- there's audio and then there's the crazy world of HiFi (replace with any word of your choosing).  There's the portion of the audio world found at Best Buy and Circuit City.  There's the portion of this business is about value....and something special.  There's the portion of this business that's about catering to the luxury crowd.  

This is no different than any other business -- the thing is, the things and outcome you're chasing after are different than the other target markets, and you probably think both of them are nuts.  Its OK, because they both think you are nuts too.  You may think about someone's choice -- why would you buy that cheap crap, or why would you buy that rediculously expensive piece of equipment that has no value, doesn't even sound great, but looks beautiful?  They'd probably answer that they wanted something cheap, or they wanted something beautiful.  

Thing is, in each situation, all parties are happy -- the guy looking for the bargain, the guy looking for the value, the guy looking for value....but something special, the guy looking for the best of the best, and the guy who wants the pretty nobs, and each business selling them.

If you're chasing after the best sound you can get -- are you doing it at a price point, any price point?  If yes, then value is a proposition.....but you're still most likely spending a heck of a lot more money on audio than the average consumer, whether its DIY, a good value, or overpriced.  But the second you made the decision that you wanted to put something together that's 'special', you accidentally stumbled into a luxury market.  And by doing that, you will find values, but you'll also find a lot more stuff that you would consider 'grossly overpriced' based on what the item actually is and what's inside it.  

Just remember that an item you may consider cheap (not speaking of value) isn't for someone else, and if you're independently wealthy, there is the distinct possibility that a $15,000 transport that looks amazing, has the same transport mechanism as you do in an $800 CDP and even crappier internal parts may be penny change to someone else.

These people aren't looking for value, they are looking for what they want, which may be want you want but cannot afford, and may be all about something you don't care about.   Because these people exist -- a market exists, and that market is about getting exactly what you want, at whatever price its offered at.

more and more product price is invested in adevrtising,

I kept this one seperate.  I cannot complain here -- any business that does this is run by people that know how to run a business and want it to grow, which is usually what you'd want to do with a business.  Heck, that 10 year warranty you were given?  These are the companies you can be pretty sure will honor it 9 years from now.  Why?  They'll still be in business.  That comfort and that support and the fact that both are budgeted can be considered much more of a value than an overpriced product to a lot of people.

In the audio world that are plenty of 'bargains' (in our eyes) and plenty of single people and mom-and-pop type business that we love and adore.  They provide products and values that are _way_ above most of what's out there.  Many of them provide amazing support as well, and their word of mouth network is their advertising, and is what keeps them going and prices cheaper.  At the same time, this scares the living crap out of some people.  God for bid something happens to that person -- bye bye company, bye bye support, bye bye resale value.  If they are one person, if they feel like next week giving things up, and starting a fishing boat business, bye bye company.  If they are one person, they have a personal life, they are much more easier overloaded, and they may not get the communication, support, and cozy feelings other companies can give them.  Many of these businesses are started by people with a passion for audio or a good idea, but don't have the slightest idea how to run a business.  To many people -- very poor value.

Are there exceptions to the rule?  YOU BETCHA, and many of those people have forums here or are discussed here.  The fact that the exceptions exist prove the rule, and we all thank them for that....and these types of people do exist in other markets.  Get as interested and entrenched in another product market and you'll find them eventually....just through a different word of mouth network.

These little companies and people provide something to their own target market.  MUCH cheaper than comparable sound of other products, great support talking directly to the guy that designed the product, low advertising overhead due to word of mouth network.  Some people rave night and day about their products and would consider it godsend to people and the audio market if these products were available in every Best Buy and Circuit City.

Here's the reality - you're not going to get a no name company's product in there or one run by a couple people.  They aren't going to have the financial backing, they aren't going to be able to float product lines, they are going to need to change things every year for no reason, they are going to need to advertise like mad -- they need a brand, they are going to need support, warranties, a fully backed business, staffing beyong belief, real estate they don't have, and to be able to meet a million requirements that they cannot.  Half the parts they use in their components they need to switch because the little companies creating them cannot meet demand or order deadlines.  They need to assemble things, they need to outsource.  

Tack on the overhead and the guy who wanted everyone to own them just killed what was special about it in the first place.

A product isn't just the cost of parts.  I see lots of bitching about people that complain about "I can't believe they charge this much for that thing with these parts in it" or "I could build it myself."  Solution - build it yourself.  Solution - realize that when I buy a product I'm not talying up the cost of every resistor and if its a penny more calling it a sham.   I'm a consumer and I'm looking for a product to do <fill in the blank> to have support that's at and that <looks like this> and it should probably cost somewhere between <here> and <here>.

I occasionally see bitching in the letters to the editor of audio magazines that have primarily reviewed nothing but the extremely expensive.  Here's a suggestion -- if the magazine isn't covering what you're looking for, or doesn't cover value, you are reading the wrong magazine.  Read the Sensible Sound.  If you like looking at the pictures and dreaming, keep doing it.  

People that buy the Robb Report are either people that can actually afford things in it and are looking for a new yacht, or the people that want to oogle at the pictures.  You don't see people writing letters to the editor wondering why the new Hyundai wasn't reviewed.

From TMDs Post -- However, probably the most compelling reason for me to keep tinkering is value for money. In some strange and perverse way, I really want to find the ultimate value for money system. Whether that is one that costs $100 and sounds like a $1,000 or one that costs $10,000 and sounds like $100k I am not sure.

I understand this 100% and 'strange and perverse' is the best way to describe this, and I've been in and out of this camp for quite some time....and then I add up the amount of times I've "tried" a component, and figure out the total amount of money I've spent in audio simply on *shipping*, and think to myself, if I'd only accepted the fact that I was willing to spend a shitload of money on audio (just spread out over time to make the financial impact better....in a psychological manner), then the components that I won't touch now because of cost, I could have just bought outright in the beginning and probably been happier than a pig in mud.  And then I'd look exactly like "the guy who plonks down big money with a dealer" who probably ended up spending less than me by sticking with one thing and is amazed by his system with the same money, because he spent 5 months auditioning equipment and systems until he got it right, brought a consulting to come in a design his room......and now he's done and spends his time discussing music instead of the stuff that spits it out.

[nathanm]

Just remember that an item you may consider cheap (not speaking of value) isn't for someone else, and if you're independently wealthy, there is the distinct possibility that a $15,000 transport that looks amazing, has the same transport mechanism as you do in an $800 CDP and even crappier internal parts may be penny change to someone else.

Hmmm...well a ripoff is a ripoff regardless of wether the buyer has the freedom to waste money.  I would hope that the ad copy would tell a story of full-assedness, hand craftsmanship, sound scientific principles and such regarding said super expensive product to elevate itself clearly from being an outright swindle!  On the one really expensive piece of gear I own, after seing it in person I understood why the price was so high.  It took real skill to make, not anything I could've done myself.  It wasn't like they had to hide anything.  Sure it's probably a bit overpriced, but I didn't think I had been taken for a ride.  

I am not sure if the example given in the quoted text is based upon an actual product or not, but I would hope that such a scam wouldn't last very long.  I would hope that any reviewer of a $15,000 thing that, uh, spins a piece of plastic... would quickly say "Hey this has the same internals as that cheap ass player!"  Surely I would expect milled casework to add to the price, but I would also hope the stuff inside is equally fastidious and that the nice case is a subjective bonus I'm willing to pay for, and not merely a deceptive facade!  Then again, circuits aren't the most glamorous looking things around.  Certainly you could have two similar amps, one with all very high tolerance parts and another with cheaper parts and they might look the same.

As far as support goes, I can't say I really give it much creedence.  I don't really care if the company is around in 10 years or not.  I would rather see that they make something which isn't designed to fail after X amount of time and that doesn't require continual repair.  A solid product you'll be proud to own.  In my experience that so-called warm fuzzy feeling you allegedly get from buying from a Big Company is merely part of an ugly  self-fulfilling prophecy:  Companies that promote great technical support like to sell stuff that NEEDS lots of great technical support! Clevver...

When I went to Best Buy recently to get a DVD player for my mom the sales weasel gave me the pitch about getting the extended warranty and how I could bring it in for "free cleanings" and free repair if it broke.  Well fuck, how about designing a piece of equipment that doesn't use the cheapest components humanly possible, slapped together in China for pennies?  They make you feel all cozy about Being There For You when they should really be hiring more engineers instead of college kids to sit around and take tech support phone calls for the half-assed junk they sell.  This isn't a diatribe of Best Buy per se, this goes to anyone with that type of business model.

Luckily I haven't had any problems like that with most of the hifi companies I've bought from.

[DVV]

...

I am not sure if the example given in the quoted text is based upon an actual product or not, but I would hope that such a scam wouldn't last very long.  I would hope that any reviewer of a $15,000 thing that, uh, spins a piece of plastic... would quickly say "Hey this has the same internals as that cheap ass player!"  Surely I would expect milled casework to add to the price, but I would also hope the stuff inside is equally fastidious and that the nice case is a subjective bonus I'm willing to pay for, and not merely a deceptive facade!  Then again, circuits aren't the most glamorous looking things around.  Certainly you could have two similar amps, one with all very high tolerance parts and another with cheaper parts and they might look the same.

Let me object here a little on technical grounds. While a transport, the actual mechanics, may appear to be the same, the rest may be quite different (control electronics, error correction, etc). Now, people say electronics are cheap, but what they forget is that while parts are indeed relatively cheap, it's not their price which is the problem, but the research and work used to implement them. God knows how many interim version before you get it right, and just measuring it assumes a hell of a lab.

A good practical example is the Sony mechanism on my Yamaha CDX-993 CD player. It is obviously a much better unit than the usual run-off-the-mill drive, using ABS rather than cheap plastic, all encased in it, etc. As far as I know, it exists in three versions, mine being the lowest on the list. The next one up uses precision bearings in motors and tighter tolerance components, yet to the naked eye, it looks exactly the same as the lower priced one. The top model looks different in details only, and you can see them, but look at the control board and you'll find top class components only.

The point being that the eye can be fooled into not seeing the point simply because the point is naturally hidden from view (e.g. motor bearings are inside the motors and cannot be seen - I never saw them, but being a dummy, I always read the manuals first, and the tech sheets).

As far as support goes, I can't say I really give it much creedence.  I don't really care if the company is around in 10 years or not.  I would rather see that they make something which isn't designed to fail after X amount of time and that doesn't require continual repair.  A solid product you'll be proud to own.  In my experience that so-called warm fuzzy feeling you allegedly get from buying from a Big Company is merely part of an ugly self-fulfilling prophecy:  Companies that promote great technical support like to sell stuff that NEEDS lots of great technical support! Clevver...

Cynical as ever, but I agree with you. The warm, fuzzy feeling comes from service (if any) and becomes that AFTER you buy AND STILL get great service (e.g. receiving responses to your e-mail within 24 hours rather than having to wait for a week or so, getting real answers to your questions, not hogwash, etc).

When I went to Best Buy recently to get a DVD player for my mom the sales weasel gave me the pitch about getting the extended warranty and how I could bring it in for "free cleanings" and free repair if it broke.  Well fuck, how about designing a piece of equipment that doesn't use the cheapest components humanly possible, slapped together in China for pennies?  They make you feel all cozy about Being There For You when they should really be hiring more engineers instead of college kids to sit around and take tech support phone calls for the half-assed junk they sell.  This isn't a diatribe of Best Buy per se, this goes to anyone with that type of business model.

Luckily I haven't had any problems like that with most of the hifi companies I've bought from.

How about a product which will, in 5 years, perform actually better than when purchased? Don't say I'm overdosing, Nate, you had one such product with you.

And you made one yourself. I refer to (of course) Brother Theodore, whom I have turned into a screen saver, and frankly, I enjoy him more and more as time goes by. Like good wine.

Cheers,
DVV

[Raj]

A while ago I asked a company in the states for info regarding their heatsinks, they wrongly assumed that I was a designer looking for a solution to a product line. I was looking for a heatsink for my amp in order to increase the quiescent current. In any case the company got back to me with some prices for an extrusion which they said they could design and supply, although the exact details are now somewhat hazy it goes something like this;

Per heatsink for evauation $800 with a minimum order of 20 samples or so and minimum cost of $8000.

This goes to show what producers are up against and how the prices of products reflect development costs and not overall sound quality.

I've studied the specs and layouts of many amps and apart from cases and heatsinks, the components used probably contribute to a very small percentage of overall cost paid by the consumer.

To make matters worse we have magazine's implying that with the increase of price we are practically guaranteed a better sound.

As I read from DVV, brushed 1' faceplates, and fancy binding posts seems to go a long way in justifying prices to would be owners.

Luckily we have some guys here providing Diy solutions, and I've yet to come across a kit that could be deemed an absolute rip-off.

Thanks
Raj

[cjr888]

One way to label a lot of message board folks would be 'more informed than usual audio consumers' -- thus more knowledgable about either electronics, or simply the products available to them, regardless of company selling, regardless of location, regardless of how big or small they are.

People such as this are a bane to companies that do something that somewhat drive me nuts, and that's take an OEM product, rebrand it, and then charge a rediculous amount of money for it.  Why?  Because they make other people aware of what they don't want people to know -- where their products come from.

I have no problem with this when it has some updates, or when the increase isn't significant and the company is functioning more as an importer, and providing support from then on.  Example: Music Hall Audio.

I do have a problem when the mark up is absolutely rediculous and the changes are relatively minor.  Example: Red Rose Music.

But most people would be absolutely amazed at how many companies sell products that are rebranded OEM products -- loudspeakers, CD players, amplifiers, preamplifires, cables, you name it.

Want a beautiful speaker cabinet that looks exactly like Sonus Faber, Usher, and dozens of other products -- talk to these people.  Need a solid amplifier -- go here.  Want something that looks pretty and has nice specifications -- go here.

Be an importer, or use it as a base, give them some additional requirements for improvement, and sell it.  Do resale, be an importer, but don't try and pass off a product at 8x the price as the most wonderful esoteric item....that anyone knowledgable could grab for 1/8th the price if they knew where to look.  If you're being reasonable and still providing yourself with decent margins, go nuts, I'm all for it -- make more products available to your home market.....just don't get carried away and try and pull a fast one on people.  Eventually people will notice and those huge profit margins you were getting won't matter, because plenty of people won't touch your product with a 10 foot pole.

[ABEX]

Of what I have read the cost for equiptment is based on components that you would never have guessed played a decisive part in the final cost.

Examples are Heatsinks and Speaker Cabinets. Look at the cost for DAC chips!They are relatively inexpensive.

It's not what is inside ,but what is built around them that makes the price exuberant in most cases.

Thinking of companies look at what they do with CDP's.They take a stock Phillips or Sony and add cosmetics and change alittle circuitry and jack the price to unattainable levels.What's worst is the fact that they are generally obsolete by the time they hit the market.That is why I am a firm believer in getting a good Transport and buying an inexpensive Dac that can compete with the insane priced CDP's.

The MENSA DAC to the Shanling(?) CDP is a good example or the Sony 777 CDP to the Mensa.For my $$ I'll go with the Mensa and a good transport!

JMO

[DVV]

Rather than answer particular messages, let me put forth a few facts that some of you may not know regarding component costs.

First of all, these drop wildly as quantities increase. For example, a pair of Toshiba's excellent 2SC5200/2SA1943 power devices (150W, 230V, 30 amp peak current, 30 MHz) cost far less than people are led to believe. I pay retail prices locally $3.50 for the pair - however, it's an unmatched pair. Now, to get proper performance, you need to match them to at least 5% tolerance, preferably 3%, my standard being 1% (but I'm a nut, it's hardly ever done commercially). To be able to match them, you need a whole lot of them, say 100+100 for any half serious run of 5-6 units. Of course, what fails the grade isn't thrown away, it can still merrily be used for many other applications which do not require close tolerances. Anyway, for 100 pairs, the price drops to $3.00.

So, using the usual commercial approach, which is to add another pair to an existing design and ramp up the power supply lines (or, more often than not, simply make them stiffer, with less sag) actually costs me a grand total of $6 per stereo amp. In view of the time, effort and instrumentation I have toi use to make the matches, this easily triples, but it's still just $18, and with two pairs, you can have a very reasonable 70-100W/8 ohms power amp, though for 100W/8 ohms, I prefer using three pairs - which adds still another $18 for a stereo amp.

You would also need a larger power transformer; if I used 2x200VA toroids for a 2x50W/8 ohms amp, I'd move on up to 2x500VA for a 2x100W/8 ohms amp, allowing a wide margin for low impedance loads (but again, I'm a nut). Anyway, locally, this would add like $60 for a pair, pushing my added cost to (36+60) $96. Larger heat sinks, etc, would push the price up to $150, if that.

So, to me, the price difference between a 50 and a 100 WPC amp, which includes greater quality (more current delivery, much improved power supplies) is around $150. Using the usual industry mark-up (manufacturer to distributor to retailer), this would typically be multiplied by a factor of 3, which means $450 by the time it got to you. For a manufacturer, this would be less, because I buy at retail prices, and they buy at wholesale prices.

So why the big differences, then? One answer is that because manufacturers are tripping over themselves to create all kinds of cases which would be striking in appearance, which often neccessitates special heat sinks - and that adds a hefty price premium. I on the other hand, use standard German made Fischer heat sinks, widely available, and thus pay much less even at retail prices.

Another answer is product perception. A 100 WPC power amp is assumed to be better than the 50 WPC power amp, whether this is so or not, and in my book, there is absolutely no correlation between sound quality and power in most cases - it becomes a serious factor as your nominal speaker impedance begins to turn evil and as the speaker effeciency starts to drop low, i.e. below say 87 dB/1W/1m. But most consumers automatically assume 100 W is better than 50 W, despite some obvious facts pointing in the other direction, such as, for example, that a 50 WPC amp can be made with just one pair of well matched power devices in a single ended push-pull (SEPP) configuration, as yet unbeaten in terms of timing by any multiple output device amp.

Second, you are handed a lot of bull daily that X's power devices are the best in the world, where X is often Sanken. I totally disagree with any "best" policy, there is no best, because one man's meat is another man's poison. It all boils down to how you use them, and especially to how far you plan to push them. But because of a wild ad campaign, the public BELIEVES the Sanken devices to be the best around, and they are then accordingly made to pay for the priviledge of owning them.

Same goes for other components as well, capacitors, resistors, you name it. The tragedy here is that some products ARE indeed far better to most others, but this is lost in the overall humdrum of manufacturers promoting their products.

Third, you are made to pay for what you may not really need, typically facilities in preamps and power outputs in power amps, only to have the unit half decently made. There were, and fortunately there still are, some notable exceptions to this rule, although there's no arguing that more money can mean better sound, as higher prices ease the designer's burden.

Off hand, I'd say the net price of components in quality made products from manufacturers (implying purchasing at wholesale prices) account for typically 15-20% of the product, excluding the case and power transformers (and here, they vary wildly in their approaches).

Lastly, many reputed products are made in the most unlikely of places. For example, how many audio companies from taiwan do you know? I don't know any, but it's there products from people like Rotel, NAD, Luxman, Proton and several others really come from. Mind you, this is not rebadging, this is subcontracting.

But there's a lot of rebadging too. Famous company X buys a great products from a totally unknown company or individual Y for peanuts, ramps up the production and charges wild prices for it. I remember McIntosh buying a design by Rajko Nestorovic in the mid-70ies, putting it into production and making heaps of money from it, although, in all truth, this enabled Rajko Nestorovic, a countryman of mine, to etsablish his Nestorovic Labs, still functional, making the Nestorovic drivers.

Today, they don't bother with this, they buy the complete manufactured boards and simply package it locally - they need to do that in order to whitewash the import and show that 51% of the value was added in the US, so they can stick "Made in U.S.A." on it, thus allowing for still higher prices.

Cheers,
DVV

[ABEX]

"Lastly, many reputed products are made in the most unlikely of places. For example, how many audio companies from taiwan do you know? I don't know any, but it's there products from people like Rotel, NAD, Luxman, Proton and several others really come from. Mind you, this is not rebadging, this is subcontracting".

I realise the fact about where stuff is made.My speaker designer showed me stuff from Tiawan ,which is where he gets his drivers from,and then showed me stuff from China. He mentioned the furhter east you get the worst the quality suffers and when you get to China it can be a crap shoot on what you end up with.

Anyhow I get what you are saying.And matching Transistors is a better way of getting good sound.My B&K came with matched transistors.Then there are toleratnces of resistors and caps.Plus what manf. is making the best at the time for whatever reason.

I try to buy amps from america,but the amps I have coming are made in Thailand with components from who knows where over there.Toshiba JFETS and Bi-Polars so Japan is that source I imagine unless they are produced for them some other place.

Thx!

[Dan Banquer]

ABEX: How do you know that the transistors are matched in your B&K?

[ABEX]

From the person that had to repair the amp after they got fried.He had told me that in order to get it fixed he had to order matched pairs from B&K.  

I could look up what he had sent me again ,but I am quite sure that is what I was told. Been about 10yrs. since it was done.To what tolerance I could not say ,might not be as strict as 3%.Who knows.

Sound Unlimited in Bristol ,CT. did the work and I spoke to them over the phone concerning the repair.

They were quite perturbed and so was I due to Ratshack telling me that a set of fuses would work in the unit.It fried the amp.Should have sent to B&K for the fuses.

[DVV]

Anyhow I get what you are saying.And matching Transistors is a better way of getting good sound.My B&K came with matched transistors.Then there are toleratnces of resistors and caps.Plus what manf. is making the best at the time for whatever reason.

Matching transistors will indeed improve the sound in terms of detail, timing and resolution, but only up to a point. Using quality components, such as, for example, metal film rather than standard carbon types will also do its part, but oddly enough, more in terms of less noise than anything else.

Really close tolerance components are needed in some specialized places only. Good examples are differential amplifiers, however of REALLY paramount importance there is transistor matching. In such cases, I tend to use ultramatched (to 0.1%) dual transistors, i.e. two or more transistors packaged in an op amp plastic 8-pin DIL package, such as SSM 2210 (NPN) and SSM 2220 (PNP), MAT 01, 02, 03 and 04, etc.

Now, here's a neat trick - those transistors in a differential configuration produce less noise together than the associated resistors. So, instead of using standard metal film resistors of 1% and 0.1% tolerance, use Vishay bulk foil resistors, and your noise level drops as low as it can realistically go.

Another good example of close tolerance are RIAA networks. Since the resistors are normally available in 1% and 0.1% tolerances, they are no problem, but capacitors are. Here in Europe, I can buy 5% and 2% capacitors (normal rating is +/-10%, often +/-20%), so I can get a RIAA curve deviation of about +/-0.1 dB.

Other then such specialized functions, close tolerance capacitors are not really required. For example, in a typical RC filter in the differential pair, does it really matter if, due to tolerances, that filter cuts off at 950 kHz, 1MHz (nominal value), or 1.05 MHz? In my view, it doesn't matter one little bit, so I concentrate on the cap's quality rather than its tolerances.

All this serves to make this point - what can hike up audio gear prices is when some designer with a conscience sits down and spends months (literally) experiementing with different components, the vast majority of which measures the same or very similar, but actually sound different. This costs time, effort and money, and must be reflected in the price, and I for one am willing to pay this particular price differential.

I think Dan and High can verify this, I know they do it more or less that way.

Cheers,
DVV

[ABEX]

Was trying to remember the name of the resistors (vishay) and Blackgate caps which seem to be getting the most notice in the designing community.

[Raj]

Hi,

I have managed to find people selling the 1% tolerence bulk foils, but have yet to come accross any retalier selling the 0.1% bulk foils, anyone????????

Thanks
Raja

[DVV]

Was trying to remember the name of the resistors (vishay) and Blackgate caps which seem to be getting the most notice in the designing community.

Not trying to split hairs here, but in the DESIGNING community?

You know, designers will most often throw in what's reputed, not infrequently unjustly so. Some of the highly reputable stuff out there, the components, gained their reputation in mahazines and audiophile and "audiophile" circles. It gets sometimes like you can't have any sound without component X or Y.

A great example are some Sanken output devices. These have a strong tendency to oscillate when put in parallel, which forces the designer into more work and hence more expense, yet he is driven onto them by the fact that some geek in some magazine could well open it up and say the equivalent of - oh, well! those are Sanken devices, aha, this explains the price, and man, everybody KNOWS they sound great, so this is a great product.

Or Elna capacitors - they are well made and reliable, but put them in and you get more bass than you bargained for.

Ultimately, it's not what you use half as much as how you use it, which does make the story of exotic components far more relative than some manufacturers would like.

Cheers,
DVV

[ABEX]

"Ultimately, it's not what you use half as much as how you use it, which does make the story of exotic components far more relative than some manufacturers would like"

If I am reading you correctly.
In certain pieces a different component can work better than what others (designers & tweekers)say are the best.What situation ,where, might dictate what might work better than what the crowd thinks is best is another way of looking at it.

Vishay's are being used in Bolder's ART DAC which has gone through various incarnations and resistor changes.They seem to work the bestfrom those who have tested them against other resistors for the ART DAC.

I've had Blackgate Caps recommended several times as replacements for my amps stock caps.So I would imagine that in certain situations or equiptment they might be a good alternative to other's ,but one does not know until trial testing with several different cap manfs..  

Point taken!

[Wayne1]

Actually in the smART DI/O level, I use DALE/Vishay resistors now because HOLCO resistors have changed the way they are made and do not sound as good as they used to.

I use RIKEN-OHM carbon film resistors on the MENSA level mods because I feel that they do sound fuller and richer than the DALE/Vishay. I do thank Doug S for pointing out how good they sound.

I am sure that for some applications, the Vishay bulk foil resistors are great. I have tried them out on the DI/O and found them a bit too dry and sterile sounding for me. YMMV.

[ABEX]

Thanks for clarifying the confusion of the resistor equation.It does take experimentation to see which would probably work best in different applications was what I was trying to get at.

Glad to see you were following the thread Wayne!

BTW,your cable will be on it's way back soon as I can pack it with some CD's for Marbles!