[Dan Banquer]

For those of you interested in a comparison between the Jon Risch Speaker Cable and 12 AWG zip cable please go to this link.
    http://www.audioholics.com/techtip....-p1.htm

[DVV]

For those of you interested in a comparison between the Jon Risch Speaker Cable and 12 AWG zip cable please go to this link.
    http://www.audioholics.com/techtip....-p1.htm

Good text - kudos to Gene.

But Dan, more than half the time, we are dealing with powerful advertising which has long ago created misconceptions which will take a long time to set straight. Nobody denies cables do sound different, just as any other part of the overall audio circuit does, but every time the handful of us tries to point out the rip-offs out there, we are banged on the head with acute audiophilia.

Cheers,
DVV

[karthikn]

Sigh.  And only a few weeks back I moved away from the zip cord to the cross connect cable also trying out the Cat 5 in the process.  But WTH, I had fun in the process of making the cable following JohnR's instructions, I also have a cool looking neon-blue cable and I also have much better connectors now making connect/disconnects easiers.  And I still enjoy what I hear with it.  But the more I read and try, the more I gravitate towards the scepticism that Nathanm has.  Damn, if I need an absolute quiet environment (no AC, no refrigerator etc.) and have to listen hard to hear improvements ... hmnnnn.  The inductance is rising.

[Audio Al]

IMO this comparison between cables is totally flawed.  It is apparent from the beginning that the reviewer's mission is to prove that 12 AWG zip is as good as "exotic" cables.  He then goes on to prove his point by taking measurements and stating specs.  He then makes some assumptions about how the cable may sound based on the specs....ridiculous.  Too bad he didn't actually listen to music and swap the cables and compare how they sound.  You can't tell how a cable will sound just by looking at specs any more then you can tell how different amps will sound by looking at only specs.  I don't care about the specs of any component in a system, only how it sounds.  Isn't that what it's all about?

[Ferdi]

I thought that was a very interesting article. I have to agree with Al to some extent. The fact that there is no mention of music makes it impossible to say which is better, regardless of measurements.

It is a good idea to do these measurements as finding links between measured characteristics and performance allows us to design and engineer cables for improved performance.

[fredgarvin]

Al, I agree in part with the premise you put forth. Certainly with amps specs do not tell the whole story where sound differances are concerned. I think with speakers though, one can draw pretty firm conclusions on a speakers probable sound characteristics by looking at the response graphs. Those peaks and valleys tell a lot. With cables certainly the picture is simpler than with amp circuits and probably speakers as well, no?

[nathanm]

Okay, so I just skimmed the article cause most of it is over my head, but I am glad someone is planning on doing some analysis of cables.   I was just reading about Pierre Sprey and his idea of super thin wires sounding better than thicker ones.  I'd love to see the Mapleshade designs tested as well.  Think of it; if you agree with him you could conceivably unwind ONE STRAND  from a cable and that will sound better than the $1000 5 pound garden hose behemoth you can barely bend to fit behind your rack!

Positive Feedback interview with Sprey

Pierre: We started out about seven years ago going in this thin wire direction. From time to time we would check other constructions when people would insist that this or that type sounded good, but basically all our experiments have revealed that the thinner the wire gets, the better it sounds, without limit!

In the case of interconnect, we have never found a wire that is too thin, we have reached a limit based on it's practicality. I can't handle it, Ron has trained himself to do so.

Greg: Can you give me a dimension?

Pierre: We're talking about a diameter of about one half a thousandth of an inch. If you soldered it to two terminals here and turned on a fan, the wire would break!

Interesting.  The smallest wire I ever saw are the ones in my Benz phono cartridge.  They are hard to see with the naked eye!  Sheesh!

Anyway Sprey seems like a really fascinating guy, and I love his minimalist recording technique, but here's an example of a guy that doesn't care AT ALL about measurments and does everything by ear.  That's fine and all, but it doesn't fly with me.  I'm more with the Audioholics guys who need something more tangible.

I think there's got to be a middle ground somewhere between those who completely rely on their own ears and emotions and and those with a lot of technical knowledge who can perform analysis and measurement with the appropriate tools.  Basically I want to know if there's a real world logical reason I should be so enamoured with the difference in sound that I am thinking about spending an entire paycheck on two wires.

You could argue that I am biased to not WANT to care about cables or hear differences in them.  That's partially true.  But I fail to see why anyone would protest any analysis whose final results showed that a 10 dollar cable performed better than a 100 dollar one.  Why are people upset about a "crusade" to save you money?  

I agree that it seems to make sense to just listen to something to determine if it is worth your while, but personally I just want to know WHY something is affecting or not affecting performance.  Many of these cables cost a ton of money, so I would like some reasons why.  What is the scale of change?  If a cable pair that costs more than my car sounds brighter and more pleasing to me could we possible figure out how it is achieving this, and perhaps if there is a cheaper way to do so?  Could we not use a base type of cable and then design a "flavor" circuit that mimicks the 'sound' of various cables in the preamp\amp?  Why should I pay 500 bucks for some goofy cable in a wooden box when I could get the same thing from, say a tone control?

If there was a practical relationship between a certain set of measured electrical characteristics and what the listener perceives in sound, THAT would be useful information to have.  So you could sit in front of your stereo and think, "Hmm the cymbals are kinda dull - let's try this cable with characteristics XYZ which should achieve better high end performace"  Know what I mean?

And here's a frightening scenario I'm waiting to see:  

Hey man, I've heard you can really improve the performance of your Wayne Kerr magnetics analyzer with some tip toes and a few lumps of Blu-Tac on the power supply!  

You know it's bound to happen...

[Dan Banquer]

Hi Nathan;
               It’s a rainy Saturday afternoon, so I will attempt to explain why people hear or think they hear differences in wire.
The first and probably the most foremost one is frequency response, and this is directly related to what’s on each side of that cable. Let’s consider the cable first. All cables have some amount of reactance, and by reactance I mean inductance and capacitance. The ratio between them can vary on how the internal strands of wire are wound together. If we had perfect amplifiers driving this cable then the reactance would not matter. The real issue here is the amplifiers driving cable  have inherent limitations. For line level amplifiers, most will allow for capacitive load, but really don’t “like” to see much of an inductive load. This due to the fact that most line level amplifiers are designed for some amount of capacitive load because in most interconnect cables capacitance is the dominant part of the cable reactance. Line level amplifiers also have some amount output resistance which will always react with the cables capacitance and it’s inductance. Let’s try one example. If I have a line level output amplifier with a high output impedance driving a very capacitive cable then depending on the amount of capacitance this line level amplifier “sees” we can get a frequency response roll off at the upper end of the audio band. If the cable is very inductive we could see a “peaking” of more transient audio signals. This would mean that the peak of the transient signal is “exaggerated” by the amplifier driving the high inductance of the cable. Since most audio “transient” signals happen to be part square wave or perhaps to be more accurate, a pulse, then the peak of the pulse can go higher than it should.
Let’s look for a minute at some of the sonic effects we might hear from the two above examples. From the first example we might perceive this as a “smoother response” and the treble appears to be much better controlled. The second example might give us the perception that the bass is more dynamic, because many of these types of transient signals, due to they’re low primary frequency nature, wind up having a good portion of they’re energy in the woofers.  
Let’s add in the receiving end of this cable. Most inputs to audio equipment. have an input filter of some kind. Usually it’s a RC filter which are pretty benign as far as driving them is concerned. However we have now added another ingredient into the mix, and this input filter also interacts with the output amplifier and the cable. As you are starting to see it’s not just the cable that everyone loves to talk about. There are always the other two components in the mix. So in reality it’s not just the “sound of the cable” it’s the sound of the cable interacting with the two pieces of equipment it’s connected to.
  If we now  move to the speaker cable many of the above issues exist. The only real difference is that on the receiving end we have a reactive load called a loudspeaker, compunding this problem further.
   Given the above we can now see why wire can sound different. There is no magic here.
Many people have stated that wire can act as tone control. Given the above examples I can completely agree with that statement, and if someone prefers to use wire as a tone control, then so be it.
 It is also the reason why I have been rather persistent about acoustic room treatment. Most of the problems audiophiles encounter are loudspeaker and room, and a good number of people on this forum have found that Live End /Dead End removes a lot of these problems that they thought were something else. One has even mentioned changing back to older cables after the acoustic room treatment was completed. I also note that many of the people who argue that “esoteric” audio cables make a profound difference are many times the same people who have ignored acoustic room treatment. My advice to all people on this forum is the following. Acoustically work the room first; then experiment with cables. If you do that you just might come to similar conclusions that I have.
Hopefully next time I will attempt to address gounding issues between two pieces of equipment. That's going to a tough one for me to explain.
       All for now;
                       d.b.

[hibuckhobby]

While there is indeed a sucker born every minute and people who specialize in snake oil, the idea that anything that costs more than zip cord or any amp that costs more than the ones at BB is a rip-off is a thought created largely in the minds of the paranoid few who also believe in the 100 mpg carburetor and the idea that big oil bought the patent to keep us in debt.

bang for the buck is a great concept...but it is just that...a concept.  It has as it's premise getting the best you can get for the least amount of money and presupposes that anyone who would spend more...or is not satisfied with the same level we think is wonderful has somehow been deluded or bought the lie.  While this is always a possiblility, it is not based in either fact or experience.

You see, experience is a personal thing...just look at the difference of opinion on equipment that exist on this board.  Some of us own "expensive" brands.  Does that mean that those of you who chose to spend less, accept lower or at the very least "different" sound quality were more astute or less decieved?  Again, possibly...but not likely.

The high end audio market...fragile though it may be, is not there just because of a lemming-like mentality of a portion of the buying public.  It is there because there is a demand (by some) for products that bring one a miniscule step closer to the holy grail of live music. Which, lest we forget used to be the purpose of the hobby.

Some may feel that they have gotten closer through either DIY or modded standard fare equipment...blessings on you.  Others have neither the time nor the inclination to attempt that.  Who is ahead here?  Perhaps a better question would be...why do you have a need to feel you are ahead or "did better" than the next guy?  If you have a certain level of resources and are happy with what you got for what you spent...that probably should be enough  

my .02
Bob

[TheChairGuy]

Urgh - CABLES!!!!

Nightmares.  

[Tonto Yoder]

There are three "articles" on cable on the front page. It's not particularly interesting, sorry.

[warnerwh]

Expensive cables make less difference than moving your speakers 2".  I've tried a bunch and the differences are quit subtle. Not worth spending hundreds on. Better to save and get better speakers. You won't wonder about the differences and you'll get alot more hardware for your dough.

[nathanm]

 What the hell warner?  You're like...actually making sense!  What's wrong with you?  You call yourself an audiophile?  I move to have you officially kicked out of the Cool Kids Club if you continue with talk like that!

Move my speakers!?  No thanks pal, I will take my chances with these cryoed, bybeed 500 dollar jobbies.  Subtle?  Whaddaya mean?  There's only HUGE differences! I mean, WOW! Height! Width! Depth!  Norah virtually spat upon my brow! Awesome!

They would've liked to charge you 500 bucks for a robotic speaker cabinet moving machine, but they figured it was easier to terminate wires.