[skrivis]

I wonder if Lee himself would shed any illumination on this issue...now that there is a brief respite from several that might dog him.

I'll chime in here.  I sent in two sets of IC's (Alpha Core and LAT)and my Alpha-Core MI-2 SC's to him to be cryo'ed.  I put them in expecting miracles, I didn't get the feeling that one iota of sound had changed.

I know cryo changes something within, but it didn't result in any perceived betterment.

I bought cryo'ed 12ga. magnet wire from him - I thought it sounded ...

Ok, so I see that cryo really doesn't seem to be doing much for you. I guess my next question would be whether cryo is cost-effective, or are there other, better places to spend your money?

[TheChairGuy]

So you are completely credulous when it comes to these guys selling tweaks? None of it strikes you as laughable?

You're either a very somber and sober person, or you're a believer.

Toooootally on many of those points, skirvis.

I'm pretty rationale (you don't make a living wage on commisions and overrides as I have for the past 18 years without enough of it) - but I allow for the possibility of many things that I have neither experienced or understand fully to be true.  In other words, I'm receptive to hearing about something positive; yet, soberly rationale to know not everything works.

I have had as many tweeks fail to impress, than work well...but I remain open and receptive.  But, I figured out the Santa and Tooth Fairy garbage that my parents fed me suprisingly young; so, rationality seems instilled in me from birth.

Not everybody is, I get that.  But, this is an audio forum where, mostly, we talk about possibilities and how they may improve our listening experiences...not pine on about about so-called rip-off's out there.  There is simply little benefit to any of us to continually hear the same drivel about DBT, snake-oil, no scientific basis, etc.

I tried cryo on my cables and I didn't hear the difference.  Neither negatively or positively. But, I won't dismiss the potential of it until further understanding of it has been reached.  

We're about possibilities here at AC, or at least I certainly hope so  

[TheChairGuy]

Ok, so I see that cryo really doesn't seem to be doing much for you. I guess my next question would be whether cryo is cost-effective, or are there other, better places to spend your money?

It hasn't been cost effective for me, so far, cryo'ing cost me about $100 or so for the 3 cables done  

Good and vibrant health is really the only thing that matters in life, that cannot be bought for any price, everything else is secondary to me.

The central 'plot' of life is good health; everything else is, what Hitchcock referred to as, a 'Macguffin'.  A plot line that looks important, but isn't at all to the overall story  

[skrivis]

Toooootally on many of those points, skirvis.

I'm pretty rationale (you don't make a living wage on commisions and overrides as I have for the past 18 years without enough of it) - but I allow for the possibility of many things that I have neither experienced or understand fully to be true.  In other words, I'm receptive to hearing about something positive; yet, soberly rationale to know not everything works.

I have had as many tweeks fail to impress, than work well...but I remain open and receptive. ...

Ok, understood. I would say that I'm firmly in the testing/engineering/science camp.  I tend to be skeptical of things that don't take that approach. I'm still willing to listen to other things, but I'm much less likely to put effort or money into doing so.

What really irritates me is claims made up of pseudo-science or that show flawed reasoning.

I have an open mind, but not enough so you can stretch it into admitting a semi truck.

I'm all about possibilities too, but perhaps I draw my line at a different place in the sand than you do.

[Soundideas]

Ok, so I see that cryo really doesn't seem to be doing much for you. I guess my next question would be whether cryo is cost-effective, or are there other, better places to spend your money?

  I'm finding out that Chasis Dampening is a lot better place to spend your money!  Putting weights on top of your components and speakers and video gear       http://www.hometheatertalk.com/httalk/viewtopic.php?t=16156

[Marbles]

Skrivis, have you ever listened to identical cables except for the cryoing?

[_scotty_]

This may be somewhat off topic and PIC, but the effects of cryoing are subtle
and in order to hear the benefits it will require a certain minimum resolution
capability   from your system.  The same threshold  level of resolution must also be present for the differences between IC's and speaker cables to manifest themselves. The effects I have heard from cryogenically treating cables and active components have been consistant and always the same. There is a reduction in haze and a lowering of the apparent noise floor. There is also a
more liquid quality to the sound or less grain. Its not a night and day and  difference but the overall effect is to make the system more musical sounding and lower listening fatigue.  I can say that a stock XR25 receiver
is good enough to let you hear these effects as well as speaker cable differences and IC differences.
It would probably have even better resolution if the stock coupling caps in the analogue input stage were replaced with more transparent parts and any op-amps in the signal path upgraded as well. Instead of debating why cryo
treating can't make a difference a better question might be what components need to changed  to raise a persons system resolution to
a level that allows these improvements to be audible.
Scotty

[Scott F.]

This may be somewhat off topic and PIC, but the effects of cryoing are subtle
and in order to hear the benefits it will require a certain minimum resolution
capability   from your system.  The same threshold  level of resolution must also be present for the differences between IC's and speaker cables to manifest themselves. ...

I fully agree on the 'minimum resolution' statement also. There are so many little tweaks that simply can not be heard unless your system is up for the task. I honestly think that is the reason their are so many guys out there that don't believe in some of these tweaks. Trouble is most people think their systems have great resolution but they really don't (that wasn't an inflamatory statement to start a flame war, honest). Once you hit a certain level of resolution in your system, when you listen to everything else, you immediately hear where the others are lacking.

Resolution doesn't necessarily mean fatiguing and it definately doesn't equate to bright either. Systems like this are hard to put into words but once you've heard (or own) one, you know it. Again, please don't mis-interperate any of what I've typed as slamming anybodies system, hearing abilities or tastes, it wasn't meant that way. I'm just trying to elaborate on the 'minimum resolution' statement.

Though I haven't done a true cryo treatment, I have tossed some tubes in the deep freeze (sub zero cube freezer, not the one beside my fridge) for several weeks. I noticed some effects. In particular, the last bit of grain was gone from a pair of 300B tubes. The grain was completely noticable before I 'froze' them. When I pulled them out and played the same songs, the grain was gone (nothing else in the system changed while the tubes were in the freezer).

Huge change? Nope.
Subtle improvement? Yes.

Am I hearing things? I honestly don't think so. Like everybody else, I know how my system sounds and I notice little changes. I noticed this one. I could only expect that a proper cryo treatment would bring even more subtle improvements to the tubes and anything else you decided to treat.

[TheChairGuy]

I should amend a qualify my earlier statement that 'I didn't hear one iota of change'.  Let me explain.

My busy time for work is usually July thru November.  Most of thing outside of 'chairs' goes by the wayside so I can concentrate making $$$.  It was during this period that I got my cryo'ed cables back.  My dedication to listening intently during this time is definitely off kilt.

However, I am almost sure I heard no benefit in cryo'ing my Alpha-Core Speaker Cable.  I am also almost sure I detected nothing different in my Alpha-Core TQ-2 IC sonic signature.  But, my LAT International IC-2 that I have owned for years was re-terminated by Wayne at Bolder with Silver Nextgen's ('cause I was curious) about a year ago.

When I got them back from Wayne they were virtually unlistenable.  Nothing that Wayne did - I think the silver Nextgens spotlighted a certain shrillness that were tamed by the original heavy brass rca's.

Now thinking clearly on the subject, that shrillness is gone and the cable works splendidly for me.  I don't know what to make of it, but that specific point was made better, far better, after cryo'ing the LAT's.

I'm not sure if I had to spend the $100 again that I'd do the three cables again.  But, I'm dang glad I did so I have that experience. Lee's service and good humor is beyond reproach, so if I do, it'll be with him again tho  

[TheChairGuy]

I have to say also - here we are having a nice, friendly discourse on the merits of cryo as passionate audiophiles.  We're all expressing our points freely, both pro and con, and it's turning an informative post.

It's great not to have the usual Engineer, nay-saying bullshit banter intercede in our fun from those temporarily deposed from Audio Circle. I bear no ill will towards Engineers, only those two jackbooted, thug, Engineers for thread-crappin' around AC for too long.

I like that it'll be in print here for their return.  

Perhaps Borg could lose track of those 10 days

[Scott F.]

I have to say also - here we are having a nice, friendly discourse on the merits of cryo as passionate audiophiles.  We're all expressing our points freely, both pro and con, and it's turning an informative post.

It's great not to have the usual Engineer, nay-saying bullshit banter intercede in our fun from those temporarily deposed from Audio Circle. I bear no ill will towards Engineers, only those two jackbooted, thug, Engineers for thread-crappin' around AC for too long.

I couldn't agree more  

I was actually hoping that the time out would turn into a full blown ban. Those two have completely worn out their welcome but thats just opinion.

[_scotty_]

John, I think part of what you experienced after the new ends were soldered on your cables may have been due the both the solder and the ends needing to break in.  That cryoing your cables finished off any remaining shrillness
is a pretty substantial vote in favor of the process.  If you could have achieved a similar magnitude of improvement in your system by some other mechanism or using a different cable that cost less than a C note then the cryo process wouldn't have been worth it in my book.
I tend to view the cryo process as the finishing touch to be applied after everything else in the system has been properly dealt with and I think it should be applied to the entire system wherever possible. It's affects are cumulative and are best realized with a systemwide approach in my opinion.
Scotty

[TheChairGuy]

I definitely considered this, Scotty.

I was at 2005 T.H.E. SHow in Las Vegas in January, and in the BPT/ZCable room there.  Mike Garner, aka TheTweakGeek, was in attendance at that time. In walked Craig Goff, the other fella' (Cryo Guru) interviewed as mentioned in the first post of this topic.

He said he did a side by side of two exact IC's...the only difference between the two was that one was cryo'ed after it was all soldered together...and the other one had every piece of material it was constructed from cryo'ed, but not the finished product.  In other words, teh differnce between the two was only the solder joints.

Of the two, it was a clean difference....the 100% cryo'ed cable was better.  Meaning, I assume, that cryo'ing that solder joint is very beneficial.

The LAT really was positively unlistenable before the cryo job, so I have to lend considerable credecence to Craig's story based on that.

If TweakGeek Mike is about and reading this, maybe he can flesh the story out a bit more