[TheChairGuy]

So, I've fairly adequately broken in the Audio Technica AT440ml cartridge by now.

My verdict: it ain't that pretty.  It kinda' mimics bad CD in too many ways...but lacks that fluid quality I've heard in great vinyl and excellent CD.  It has some artificial quality to it (especially in the treble), as well.  It's probably one of the standard bearers in under $100 cartridges....but (now I don't want to sound like I'm snotty here     ), I think I've accustomed myself to better stuff the past couple years.

I really, really like my CD set-up, it's surely not perfect, but I always find it pleasureable.  I'm NOT finding vinyl pleasurable right now...and I hope it's not endemic of the breed, but of the cartridge.

So, I bought my first moving coil today.  After a lot of research, I decided upon an Ortofon X5 MC. 2mv output and std. 47K input - any MM input will do just fine.

The best part is that it was remarkably reasonable at only $199.00. I looked at the Sumiko's for 2x as much (I wanted to stay with std. MM input - my Dynaco PAS-4 phono stage is reported to be first class), but didn't figure the difference to be worth it.  Any Sumiko lovers out there to chime in?

So, we'll see if it improves things.  It's cheaper forerunner, the X3 has been around for almost 20 years and this is a rather new-ish update of it with a new top-of-the-line (for Ortofon) asymetrical stylus shape for better tracking and lower stylus mass. The reviews of the X3 fifteen+ years ago were very good in Stereo Review, High Fidelity, Sterophile....I don't think THAT much innovation has been made in cartridges since the waning (volume-wise) of turntables in the mid-to-late 80's.

The experiment continues...now at about $500 total outlay  

[lcrim]

Chair Guy:
With regard to your ungrading from the AT cartridge to a HOMC from Ortofon- I just bought an old Dual CS 5000  TT and tonearm.  This particular arm is what is known as an Ultra Low Mass arm.  To work best, it requires a high compliance cartridge, that is, the stylus assembly or cantilever bends quite easily.  High compliance cart for low mass arm.
What does this have to do with your issue?  Well, MC cartridges tend to be much less compliant than MM cartridges and hence work best in a tonearm of higher mass.  They need the mass to track properly.  I frankly don't know what mass arm is on your JVC TT but I would find that out to determine which type of cartridge would work best.  It is not completely black and white but there are ranges that just won't work well together.
PM me and I can give your more information.

[audiochef]

Why doesn't anyone talk about GruvGlide here?
Which leads me to this.
I finally inserted my mediocre analog to my main system. Tweaked out P3-heavyweight, VTA, acrylic platter,speed mat ,brass cone feet,bullet plugs and AT-oc9 via Trichord Dino and silverstreaks.
I was shocked at how good it sounded vs my Blackgated superclocked and switchdown behind the player of my SCD777 . Monarchy dac (sometimes).

With certain recordings that I have in both formats, heavy rock ,such as Social D cleary is better through cd. One reason is that the vinyl  pressing just dosn't seem to be be of high quality . Especially modern pressings.

I'm talking dynamics here. On pop ,jazz and classical cd is better others vinyl wins. Although the latter with less  bass extension .

Reissues of Living Stereo vs SACD is no competition!
Vinyl kicks the crap out of cd.

I was at Tower records the other day stocking up on my Euro Hifi mags and noticed they cariried GruvGlide. I asked the price and the clerk whom happened to be a DJ swore by the stuff. Being the snob that am , and not trusting of a DJ, I had to go online to research myself. And coincidently reading Fermers  report on cleaning solutions in this months Stereophile I know I'm satisfied with own home brew cleaning fluid and method cleaning, I went back and purchased the Gruvglide.

This stuff is amazing! I would say the difference is like going from 33 to 45s.  EVERYTHING gets better!

Where it was a tie before, anlog is cleary better.

With cd I listen to my Hi-Fi , with vinyl, I'm listening to the event.
Vinyl is more real, emotive and involving. No question. It's something to do with those 1s and 0s.

Funny how when HI-Fi recruitment started to decline was when cd was introduced.

[TheChairGuy]

Well, I gotta' now say I know why guys re-mortgage their houses for great analog setups....only WITH Moving Coil cartridges.

I can't beleive the tunes I'm hearing even with a lowly $200 hi-output Ortofon.  It is night and day better than the Audio Technica AT0440ml Moving Magnet.  Night and day.

Miles Davis 'Tutu' has always been a horrible LP to listen to...his flugelhorn or trumpet-like thingee he plays always sounded horrendous - with the Audio Technica or prior setup (Thorens TD-316 with Shure V15xMR - the so-called latest and best one, now retired).  The Shure/Thorens almost got it right, but not like this.

It's not even close.

Larry/lcrim, yeah the JVC has an 'S' shape tonearm and at least medium to high mass.....but the A-T was very low compliance of 10 (meaning it should have mated like rabbits   ).  But, the Ortofon, with a compliance of either 13 or 15, sounds tragically better.  Terminally and wonderfully better.

Like Carlman said earlier in this post, no groovin' until a good MC was inserted.

It's surely the most enjoyable analog I've ever heard in here.

That said, it's still not as overall amazing as my CD playback...but I do now see that spending equivalent money on a vinyl front end is not a fruitless exercise.  A superb dedicated phono amp and a low output Moving Coil for a couple $$$thousand - even mated to a $50.00 JVC - is not as silly as I once thought it was.  I'm likely not to (at least, not right now   ), but it's a thought in play.  

Maybe some Gruv Glide is on the agenda next....

Happy Days  

[philipp]

I heard that GruvGlide is popular with DJs as a quick and easy way to get rid of static but that it leaves a little residue on your records that shows up as a light hiss when played through quality audiophile equipment. Also, the stuff is supposed to be next to impossible to remove later. Caveat emptor.

[TheChairGuy]

ummmm...and maybe then again, NO Gruv Glide for me.

Perhaps just the carbon fiber brush with all the other cleaning rituals.

Thanks for chiming in,  Philipp

[WEEZ]

I've enjoyed reading this thread..ahh, the vinyl journey.. ain't it fun?

I grew up with records-45's;mono LP's; stereo LP's. (My brother has all the family heirloom 78's and a still-working RCA 78rpm record player with the big horn speaker  

My first decent turntable was an AR-XA w/a Shure M91 cartridge. Totally manual (no cueing lever). Paid about a hundred bucks brand new. To this day- I still think it would compete with the Linn LP12 if isolated properly.

To me, the secret is isolation. Keep the vibrations away from the 'table. (It IS a machine, after all). Keep the records clean. Play with the cartridge set-up and get it right. (v-e-r-y important). Insure good grounding. Then you're ready to enjoy a very addictive 'hobby within the hobby'.

As far as how vinyl compares to CD; here's my take:

  1) some LP's will sound like shit no matter what
  2) some LP's will sound pretty good- but not as good as the CD
  3) some LP's will sound awesome and will make you want to forget digital
  4) have both sources avaialble in the event that #2 or #3 happens..

Depending on the type of music you like, there are some really great jazz and classical pressings that were made in the '50's and '60's that will rival today's digital recordings in terms of 'naturalness' and 'ambiance'. It is these attributes where vinyl excels. (but I will conceed that dynamics are sacrificed to some extent).

Guess I'll always be a vinyl lover. I keep hunting for stuff on vinyl all the time. It's my pursuit of the music....

Now if I could find a CD player with 'naturalness' and 'ambiance'......

 

WEEZ

[JoshK]

weez, have you tried non-OS dacs? those have many qualities LPs have but not all.  I agree though with your statements, I find personally that LPs dont' clearly beat CDs nor visa versa, it depends a lot on the album in question.

[TheChairGuy]

Best night of music in a long time (measured perhaps in decades, not months) tonite - all vinyl.

I'm not sure it was nostalgia or that I really liked it THAT much...either way, it was a great night of listening.

I think the Ortofon is subtly breaking in and I dialed in the azimuth and VTA and BINGO - out came clear, involving, unfettered music.  The Fritz-Geiger extreme hyperelliptical stylus is very, very picky it seems  

The Ortofon MC X5, for only $110.00 more than the Audio Technica 440ml made some real music (finally) in here.  I'm positively thrilled  

[WEEZ]

JoshK;

no, haven't tried non-oversampling. sounds interesting-but I'm now intrigued by the CEC belt drive player...

TheChairGuy;

congrats! when analog is good, it's sooo good.

 

WEEZ

[TheChairGuy]

Tinkering around with vinyl does certainly pay off....but it is oft excruciatingly boring and time-consuming.

That said, I've finally had time the past two days to devote maximum energies towards getting it right. And, the pay off has been good.

Someone mentioned earlier in this topic the need for good isolation.  I read somewhere that Harry Pearson/VPI said that using a Gingko Audio rack under one of his tables is money far better spent than moving from a $800 to a $2500 cartridge.  So, in this spirit, I set about to improving the isolation.

I have the over-achieving $50 JVC set upon 5 little squishy 'puds' (called Vibra-Killers)from LAT International.  I have bought a bunch of them over the years and, to me, they seem to perform better than brass cones, vibrapods, and Bright Star Isonodes that I've bought in the past.

http://www.latinternational.com/index.php/product/vibra-killers.html

I figured they were doing the job - but, they really weren't doing enough.  Under each 'pud' I put some of Herbie's little Grungebuster dots I had bought long ago and another layer of haze was removed.  I also spread my speakers another couple feet from the equipment rack (of which the turntable graces it's top-most position) and began to hear bass lines and another small layer of haze begone.

Given the very positive experience I've had with the Herbie's dots (at $1.00 a piece) and the tube damping instruments, I bought a dozen of his Tenderfeet.  I'll probably use 5 under the JVC and see...they are expected in today (via USPS).

I also bought a Way Excellent Turntable Mat.  I've been experimenting much in this area, too.  The stock rubber mat is lifeless, the AudioQuest sorbothane mat (I've had for 20 years) overdamps everything (tho there is a hint of betterment, it falls literally, flat).  The best so far is homebrew 'Non-Felt' mats I made from thick grippy shelf liner.  Brand names of Rubbermaid and Griptex

Hopefully, Herbie's Way Excellent Mat will be a positive step in all directions.  It's tunable as it has 24 Grungbuster dots on it...in case things seems overdamped, you simply remove a few dots.

What I am now hearing is encroaching parity with CD playback.....really surprising for my $500 outlay.  I like the Ortofon X5-MC quite a lot - it errs on doing not much wrong rather than a few things particularly right, only.  It is very clear and does a good job of keeping surface noise low...it  tracks a lot better than specs indicate and does not sound slow, despite it's high-ish 0.75 mg stylus tip mass (bettered by MM types 1/3 it's price).  It's the best overall cartridge I've owned...bettering (from memory) even my long-cherished Grace F-9E.  It's a little bass-shy, relative to my recently departed Shure V15mxr, but altogether preferable.

The Fritz-Geiger tip requires a LOT of jiggling to get juuuuuuust right, but I think I dialed it in the sweet spot now  

[TheChairGuy]

Despite the risk of this topic becoming a soliliquoy for TheChairGuy, I soldier on with my analog experiment  

Herbie's Tenderfeet were installed under the TT.  Indeed, a small improvement over the LAT squishy puds used.  I also bought a nice heavy green marble (darker colors are older and less resonent I'm told) cutting board from Cost-Plus and put that under the TT.

Pleasand upgrades, both of them for $50.00. Just a bit more silent now...and a good rap on the side of my Target (NOT the retailer, the stand maker from UK    ) rack seems not to travel thru the cartridge and into the music now. Isolation does indeed pay off.

I also installed the Herbie's Way Excellent Mat.  At first, it was inferior to the homebrew Non-Felt mat (nee Rubbermaid).  It was overdamped, slower sounding and gobbled up the treble extension.  The mat comes with 24 grungebuster dots on them.....removing 12 got me superior playback to the homebrew Non-Felt.  A little more tinkering might be needed...but I'm pretty satisfied with the result today. Very fast output and it just sounds kinda' right (vs. Non-Felt, stock rubber mat and Audioquest sorbothane mat)

I've now spent about the same as I did on a used, SACDMods, Sony 5 disc SACD player a few months ago.....with a dramatically better results for similar outlay.

In fact, I have to now somewhat sheepishly admit that my vinyl playback is not only more enjoyable; I think it is actually higher fidelity than my CD playback is now.  I don't think it's nostalgia anymore talking...I am now a believer.

So, $550 vinyl (including $150.00 cleaning machine) = $4500 CD?  

Convenient it's not (tho mine more convenient than most because the JVC is auto-return), but it's not that much of a pain.  And, the result is increasingly glorious.

[Folsom]

Hm well as the argument goes, some say CD for the imaging, soundstage, and dynamics....

I take it those attributes do not hold a candle to the smooth, powerful, and defining sound of Vinyl. Hm well that is how I feel.

Not that every thing on a CD is authentically representation of actual live music in any form. I suppose peoples' opinions vary on what music is though.

Also incase you want to listen to any thing after what, 1983 or so, you will need a CD player setup unless their Vinyl (if they made any) was an anomaly and sounds good. At least that is what I have read, and believe.

[TheChairGuy]

Well, it's actually $600 sunk int this experiment...I forgot to add the $58.00 Herbie's mat.

So....$600 Vinyl = $4500 CD?  Strange math, methinks  

I forgot to mention one other little tweek that helped...prying apart the rca leads into separates (from bundled).  This little ditty was learned from Paul McGowan of PS Audio...it lowers the capacitance of the wire slightly (two wires laid on top of one another have higher capacitance than separate...all things being equal)

True to form, it extended the treble response a bit further out.  Too much capacitance in the line, because of miniscule output of cartridge (in this case, it's only 2 mv), is particularly harmful to treble response as I understand my rudimentary electrical knowledge.

[Folsom]

Well, it's actually $600 sunk int this experiment...I forgot to add the $58.00 Herbie's mat.

So....$600 Vinyl = $4500 CD?  Strange math, methinks  

I forgot to mention one other little tweek that helped...prying apart the rca leads into separates (from bundled).  This little ditty was learned from Paul McGowan of PS Audio...it lowers the capacitance of the wire slightly (two wires laid on top of one another have higher capacitance than separate...all things being equal)

True to form, it ext ...

Unless you want to listen to rap  

[mmakshak]

I've got 3(new) ways to compare digital to analog.  First, does it relax you?  Second, does it play through your head when you are away from it?  Third, does it make you want to hurry and go home to listen to it?  BTW, I've been burned on at least three 1982 albums.  John Cougar Mellencamp's "American Idol", Phil Collins' best selling album after "Face Value", and another that I can't remember.  I now stick to 1981, or earlier, commercial albums.  I just can't help thinking Joe Cocker's "You are so Beautiful" would sound fantastic in all analog.  With some digital that I hear, you can tell that the singer is really emotional, but I don't get emotional(like analog does to you).

[Folsom]

I've got 3(new) ways to compare digital to analog.  First, does it relax you?  Second, does it play through your head when you are away from it?  Third, does it make you want to hurry and go home to listen to it?  BTW, I've been burned on at least three 1982 albums.  John Cougar Mellencamp's "American Idol", Phil Collins' best selling album after "Face Value", and another that I can't remember.  I now stick to 1981, or earlier, commercial albums.  I just can't help thinking Joe Cocker's "You are so Beautifu ...

Oh sweet heavens....... Go buy Joe Cockers Greatest Hits, the one that is black with red lettering, or the individual albums. The Greatest Hits album is from the seventies, so I would say it was a good pressing. That and it sounds magical to me. If there is no local place for you to pick it up I could grab a copy from the local place here that seems to have several of most older known albums. I want to find a couple originals though; I need Sandpaper Cadillac and a few other songs. I just want to mention again..... Neil Diamond. The power of his voice, wow.... Vinyl is from an era when the singers voice was important, and CD's, well any Neil Diamond on CD I have heard has huge emphasis on the interments over the vocal, I hate the CD's. I realize I am probably preaching you to go buy what was considered MTV TRL for the day, but these people had talent.

I have a total of $700 or so into my Vinyl setup. I feel silly knowing I was close to spending $400 on a DAC of some kind, sadly I know it would of fell short my Vinyl setup.

Your way to compare, sometimes, I am excited all day when I know I am going to get to listen to it. I have also had a VERY hard time leaving my room to go to class when playing some Creedence Clearwater Revival.

Here is an interesting tid-bit of information..... When I blare my CD's you can hear it if you are near my door. When I blare my Vinyl I can close my door and hear it throughout the hallway. Is that relevant, hell if I know, but I think that tid-bit is interesting.

By the way in no way do I mean to say Vinyl is so new and fantastic it will make your mom obsolete and CD's suck. The choice between a well pressing of Vinyl and a CD of any artist, I am going to reach for the Vinyl first is however what I can say.

[woodsyi]

Hey Destroyer,

PM me if you want 10 or 15 ND LPs for shipping and handling.  I am trying to unload about 700 LPs that I don't want.  I thought about just dropping off at Goodwill, but I would rather have them go to someone who will appreciate them.

[TheChairGuy]

So, I upgraded the Sovtek 6922's in tht secondary phonostage of my Dynaco PAS-4 recently to cryo'ed, military 6n1p's from www.Tubeman.com. It was my first purchase of cryo tubes...for only $29.99 a pair, I splurged.

My preamp has buffered circuitry - making it a good match for the much more voltage hungry 6dj8/6922's out there.  It is NOT a direct replacement for all 6dj8/6922's...so don't apply it to your case unless warranted.

I already had new Svetlana 6n1p's in the line stage...and noted the benefit from the 6922's.  They only cost me $12.00 a pair...cheaper then the Sovtek 6922's were.  I love this new math  

Well, the differrnce in a NOS, cryo'ed tube was not subtle.  Tho my experience with cryo'ed cables, speaker cable, and fuses wasn't tremendous...this one was.  It took my phono stage to new heights now....I am finding myself much more involved in listening to music now with vinyl, versus CD.

I told my wife the other night that all that time I've spent twiddling with my CD playback was trying to get music out of it all these years.  The twiddling I do on the $600 vinyl front end is in an effort to get MORE music from it.  It's a small, but important, difference to us here at Audio Circle.

What an interesting experiment this turned out to be.  I was originally searching for away to inexpensively enjoy my 300 albums carefully harvested over time....and what I found was a superior playback medium in a 100 year old technology.  No, not better in all ways, but better in it's sum parts.

Happy days for the Chair Guy, indeed.

Next up - a home brew damping trough for the tone arm. Can't wait.

[randytsuch]

Hi Chairguy,
Have you gone to any thrift or record stores yet?  
One thing I found when I returned to vinyl a few months ago was there is a lot of cheap records out there.   A while back, a local store was selling stuff in it's attic for 33 cents each (normally $1 each).  It is hard NOT to buy a record that is 33 cents.

And, if you do buy thrift store records, build a record cleaning machine.  I built one from a broken record player, shop vac and a couple crevice tools.  I use audioquest brushes to apply the fluid, and am using the record research deep clean and super vinyl wash fluids.

I had played a record a few times without cleaning it, then cleaned it, and was surprised, it was very obviously better after cleaning.

Randy