What are your long term thoughts on JVC and Panasonic amps?

KT · « **on:** 5 Nov 2005, 03:40 pm »

Now that some time has passed, what are your long term listening impressions of the JVC and Panasonic digital multichannel amps?

Are you still as enthusiastic about them as when they first came out? Are you still using them in your system?

I bought a JVC ES1-sl and it's a great sounding piece. Being the tweaker that I am, however, I moved briefly to a Sharp EX-111, and then back to my modded Cary SLP-94 tube preamp driving a variety of small class-d amps, notably the diyparadise.com Charlize and a modded Sonic Impact. I also use the Cary to drive a Gaincard amp.

I can say that the JVC and Sharp sound great and perform way, way beyond their cost, but that their performance doesn't match that of a good tube preamp driving either a good SS or tube power amp. Of course, this combo can cost much more than one of the digital multi-channel amps - much more in most cases.

Still, the multichannel amps have a place in my lineup: I prefer it when I want a fuss-free amp that sounds great. You sure can't beat the convenience and cost of these things! I plan to use it in my HT setup once I get around to setting that up.

Having said that, the JVC and Sharp are packed away while I explore other solutions (that happen to be more costly) that give me more musical insight.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on your own digital multichannel amp experiences.

Best,
KT

zybar · « **Reply #1 on:** 5 Nov 2005, 04:29 pm »

I am still using a Panny XR-45 in my living room driving a pair of JM Reynaud Twins Mk II.

I still like the sound and don't see me replacing it anytime soon.

Nothing can really touch it for the money.

George

Jon L · « **Reply #2 on:** 5 Nov 2005, 04:53 pm »

So far I've been feeding my Panny SA-XR55 "consumer" signals, i.e. digital signal from DISH 811 HD receiver, consumer DVD/CD player, but yesterday I got off my behind and fed Panny some nice signal. Foobar/ASIO/Flac->Empirical "Freeway" USB/spdif converter->Panny.

All I can say is I need to seriously rethink this whole pure digital path/digital amp REVOLUTION

CornellAlum · « **Reply #3 on:** 5 Nov 2005, 05:07 pm »

My only compaint with my modded xr-45 is that it runs out of power too soon for my taste, but I also like it really loud! That said though, the sound out of it is absolutely wonderful, and the thought of spending over 2 grand to get the same performance is a daunting one.

dwk · « **Reply #4 on:** 5 Nov 2005, 05:07 pm »

I recently added some ACI Sapphire XL's to my system (Katrina raffle - Woo Hoo!!), and have done some listening with my Panny XR25. Now, I have modified the Panny to use battery power for the output stage so it's not exactly a fair comparison to stock, but it's entirely possible that this will be my long-term solution. The combination simply sounds freakin' awesome, and I'm not interested in upgrading if it's going to cost me north of $2k.
I agree with Zybar that I just don't see how anything can touch these for the $$$. I have the little Teac 3-channel units that Vinnie mods as well, and while they sound good you have to feed them a pretty high-grade signal to get the most out of them, and anything of that pedigree blows the combination way out of the Panny price range.

brj · « **Reply #5 on:** 5 Nov 2005, 05:25 pm »

Quote from: dwk

I recently added some ACI Sapphire XL's to my system (Katrina raffle - Woo Hoo!!), and have done some listening with my Panny XR25. Now, I have modified the Panny to use battery power for the output stage so it's not exactly a fair comparison to stock, but it's entirely possible that this will be my long-term solution.

The Panny is 6 channels of 100W into 6 Ohms nominal - you must have some huge batteries!! Can you provide a few more details on how you set this up?

dwk · « **Reply #6 on:** 5 Nov 2005, 06:05 pm »

Quote from: brj

The Panny is 6 channels of 100W into 6 Ohms nominal - you must have some huge batteries!! Can you provide a few more details on how you set this up?

Well, MY Panny is 8-10W into 2 channels, so the batteries aren't that big at all

I basically did this as a 'proof of concept', and battery conversion for the XR25 is dead easy. The power feed to the amp board is very obvious and accessable - three wires from a jumper on the PS board to the amp board (two +V, one GND). I simply spliced into these wires and stuck a single 7ah 12V SLA in the loop. The amp is still plugged in, so the low-level signal stuff is still powered by the existing supply. (this probably violates code, but I haven't looked at a full battery conversion yet - I suspect that there are a fair number of voltages needed which would complicate things)

This scheme works because the Panny receivers use a variable-output power supply where the voltage out ranges from ~42V at full power down to I think around 4V at the bottom. Volume control down to either -20 or -40dB (I think- it's been a while) works by reducing the supply voltage- below that point digital attenuation is used. In theory, with a 12V supply you give up a bit of S/N, but the quality of the battery supply more than makes up for it. So, what you get is an 8-10W amp, with full volume control as long as you stay below the -20/-40 point at which digital attenuation is invoked..

If I decide to use this as my 'real' solution I'll do a bunch more engineering to it and make it more ergonomic. Currently I have to disconnect the battery to charge it, and it's connected via a length of 12Ga extension cord poking out the back of the amp - not pretty. My concern is that the Sapphires are inefficient (~85dB) and so ~10W might be inadequate; I'm listening nearfield in a very small room, though, so it might work. I 'could' set up a more sophisticated battery mechanism using say three 6V golf cart batteries, but that blows the complexity up quite a bit.

Occam · « **Reply #7 on:** 5 Nov 2005, 07:23 pm »

I don't have a Panny, but I've been doing my usual surfing of the net, trying to suss out the Panny's capabilites as it applies to stereo reproduction. Frankly, I'm stunned by the technical implementation.

Per the Australian documentation-
http://panasonic.com.au/content/library/files/F001536.pdf
with bi-wireable speakers, one can deploy 6 channels of amplification for stereo mode, 3/channel, with 2 paralleled for bass and 1 for treble. Dunno how it sounds, but to find this sort of switching/deployment implemented in a $250 reciever is amazing.
FWIW

sunshinedawg · « **Reply #8 on:** 5 Nov 2005, 09:38 pm »

I'm still enjoying my Bolder Cable modded xr45. It is an amazing HT receiver. I don't really know that I could do any better for the price I'm into it for(1k). The great thing about the panny is that I can use it for 2 channel also and it sounds darn good!

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #9 on:** 6 Nov 2005, 08:51 pm »

I know of no other receiver that you can buy for $200-250 with remote, many preamp functions, a (horrible, admittedly) AM/FM capability, and 6 channels of amplification that can even drive a planar speaker.......than the JVC's (mine is the F10).

They are outstandingly good value for the money.....you'd have to spend far, far more in separates to get equivalent capabilities. Maybe close to $2000..00 including IC's. THAT's great value.

That said, it's not perfect - and spending more than $2G's will get you some better sound. But, at a significant dent to your wallet.

Mine sits idly by right now while I try out some separates.....but it will be used again and again in the near future. Possibly, as a video centerpiece receiver.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #10 on:** 6 Nov 2005, 09:56 pm »

The JVC and the Onix Melody SP-3 will fight it out to the death in my bedroom rig over the next few weeks.

I'll report back after then.

eric the red · « **Reply #11 on:** 6 Nov 2005, 10:11 pm »

Quote from: Rob Babcock

The JVC and the Onix Melody SP-3 will fight it out to the death in my bedroom rig over the next few weeks. I'll report back after then.

You could put a green and yellow jersey on one and a purple and gold jersey on the other and have a sissy fight

beatdownvictim · « **Reply #12 on:** 6 Nov 2005, 10:28 pm »

Right now i'm digging the hell out of my vinnie rossi modded teac, holy $@# that thing sounds fantastic. Compared with the stock teac, it outdoes it by far. I also had a panasonic sa-xr15 but by far prefer the teac. I'm going to be a happy boy for a while. I missed out on a couple jvc f10 opportunities, but if i have the chance, surely i'll pounce on it and compare it to the teac. From TCG's reviews, it'll be a damn good test. I wonder if RWA will consider modding the F10, from the sounds of it, it could be a total giant killer.

tschanrm · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 Nov 2005, 02:42 am »

I definetly think that the Panasonic and JVC lineups offer great value, and very few products compare to them in their price range. I have two Panasonic SA-XR10's, actually I gave one of them to my parents along with my old set of Infinity RS4's. For a straight stereo setup, I prefer my old Pioneer SX-1010 over the XR10. I did about as close to a test setup as possible: I had both driving the left channel only, and had my two Omni260's right next to each other hooked up to the left channels of each receiver. My source was an Echo Layla 24/96, a nice pro-level sound card. I even gave the advantage to the XR10 by using the digital out on the Layla for the XR10, and the Layla's analog out on the SX-1010. Side-by-side, the 1010 sounded better. The biggest difference was that the xr10 was harsher with vocalists; a hard "S" sound from vocalists when they spoke "S" words. I couldn't test soundstage, as each only had one speaker.

To be fair though, my sx-1010 is not stock, after all it is 30 years old now! This year I replaced all capacitors inside it, added a soft start, upgraded bias pots, upgraded volume pot to blue velvet pot, and replaced the two large P/S caps with Nichicon KG's (2x22,000). It's a linear power, all discrete design of the golden era of receivers, and sounds glorious to me. The fact that the XR10 sounded similar to the 1010 is a testament to the quality/performance of Panasonic's lineup. If the 1010 wasn't given to me , I would have modified the XR10 in a heartbeat. In fact, my original purpose for buying the XR10 was to compare it to my 1010, to see if it was as good as people claimed it to be. After comparing the two, I felt the XR10 was such a good value in sound, that I kept it and use it in my office now.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Nov 2005, 04:40 am »

Actually, using the digital in is reputedly a big handicap for the JVC. It has a reputation for sounding spectacular thru the analog inputs but only average to mediocre thru the digital. YMMV.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #15 on:** 7 Nov 2005, 04:53 am »

Quote from: beatdownvictim

Right now i'm digging the hell out of my vinnie rossi modded teac, holy $@# that thing sounds fantastic. Compared with the stock teac, it outdoes it by far. I also had a panasonic sa-xr15 but by far prefer the teac. I'm going to be a happy boy for a while. I missed out on a couple jvc f10 opportunities, but if i have the chance, surely i'll pounce on it and compare it to the teac. From TCG's reviews, it'll be a damn good test. I wonder if RWA will consider modding the F10, from the sounds of it, it could be a total giant killer.

bdv,

Very cool that you got the Red Wine TEAC!

Wayne at Bolder a year ago+ said the JVC was too tight inside to do anything to when he cracked it open.

tschanrm · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Nov 2005, 06:28 am »

Quote from: Rob Babcock

Actually, using the digital in is reputedly a big handicap for the JVC. It has a reputation for sounding spectacular thru the analog inputs but only average to mediocre thru the digital. YMMV.

Yes, Rob, that is true. I don't know if you were directing that post to me or not, but I have the Panasonic SA-XR10, so using the digital input is the best option for the receiver in terms of sound quality.

Quote from: The Chair Guy

Wayne at Bolder a year ago+ said the JVC was too tight inside to do anything to when he cracked it open.

I've seen pictures of that JVC model. The Panasonic models have a much better internal layout than JVC's internal layout, but that does not translate into better sound. I have never heard the JVC models, so I have no comment in regards to sound quality.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #17 on:** 7 Nov 2005, 06:36 am »

Ooops- I thought you meant the JVC.

Yeah, I've always heard that digital input is the way to go with the Panny.

beatdownvictim · « **Reply #18 on:** 7 Nov 2005, 10:38 am »

Quote from: TheChairGuy

bdv,

Very cool that you got the Red Wine TEAC!

Wayne at Bolder a year ago+ said the JVC was too tight inside to do anything to when he cracked it open.

man, who needs cases, they're WAY overrated. i guess the appeal of having such a slim component does have its drawbacks. As for my teac, it's not really a RWA teac, it's a vinnie rossi modded (before rwa) teac. I'm running that thing with a tripplite isolation transformer. dead and i mean dead silent

mcgsxr · « **Reply #19 on:** 7 Nov 2005, 01:59 pm »

I have a version of that Teac, with PS mods by Vinnie - I can attest that it is better than the stock unit too, and have run it with tripplite, and powervar conditioners.

Felicia - that is the way to go, for a switching power supply Teac, in my experience... have a look at that DIY balanced power toy in the Lab here, and sort out if it is something that you can handle.

I am still happy with the baby JVC EX-A1 in my system (related to the F10 and ES-1 receivers in topology) but life is still too busy to do a decent comparison of the onboard cd player in that unit, vs the front end I used to use.