[warnerwh]

These people seem to do a nice job. Quite enjoyable:

http://www.tone.ws/tone-audio.htm

[Gordy]

Thanks for the link Warner!  I've only given it a once over so far, looks very nice

[mcgsxr]

Well, sure there is an ad next to each review, and call me Mr Naive, but I am not sure that isn't because there is a review, and so it makes sense.

Hey, just my take.

[audioengr]

Here's the issue. The E-Zine makes money from selling advertisements to manufacturers. It appears they are reviewing products from the manufacturers who are paying for ads. If the success of the E-Zine relies on advertising dollars received from these manufacturers, how likely is it that the reviews will contain any info critical of the products? Not likely at all, in my opinion.

It's the old saying, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you".

They asked me for some products to review at RMAF and didn't say anything about ads.


Steve N.

[cryoparts]

They asked me for some products to review at RMAF and didn't say anything about ads.


Steve N.

Same here.  The founder, Jeff, seemed like a very straight shooting individual.

Best Regards,

Lee

[byteme]

I read quite a few pages of this thing and really liked it thus far.  I'm sure it has something to do with a couple of the guys being from Milwaukee and talking about places that I, too, have dropped a lot of dollars in the past.

One thing I noticed - and rather liked about thier "view of the audio world" was they didn't want to sacrifice the length or quality of an article for ad space.  Personally I don't find anything horribly wrong (at this point) in putting an ad for gear right next to the review.  After all, a review pretty much is an advertisement for the gear anyway, isn't it?  Sure - it shouldn't be full of fluff, BS and sunshine but I don't get that vibe from them at this point.  If history proves them to be another Stereo review or some such magazine that never says anything negative about a product then we can bitch - until then, they get the benefit of the doubt from me!

[Red Dragon Audio]

this thread caught my eye so I thought I would chime in.  Whilst perusing the article about Aperion spekers I noticed the Aperion ad...yes it's right next to the article about their speakers but that's actually quite normal.  You'll find that in Stereophile, TAS, Inner Ear, etc... In fact you'll find that happening in mountain bike mags, motorcycle mags, automobile mags, video game mags. etc etc etc...do you think it odd that Minolta or Canon advertise within the pages of Digital Camera?

...in any business if your product is being reviewed by that magazine, it's standard procedure to place an ad right next to the article.

I would not expect Aperion to advertise their gear heavily inside the pages of a Gardening magazine; they wouldn't see as much return (though they might make a few sales because of it...everyone likes music).


Anyway...that's just my 10cents on the advertising bit (2cents isn't worth anything these days)

What really caught my eye was the fact that Aperion Audio is located on Boones Ferry Road back in Oregon.  I used to live right off of Boones Ferry Road in Durham, Oregon...it just kind of makes me nostalgic...ahhh....


Time to go back and peruse their eZine further.

[Red Dragon Audio]

...by gosh another manufacturer popped up in my other old stomping ground of Issaquah, Washington!! (pacific creek audio).  I used to live up on the platau in that little (now fairly good sized) city...

There is a chocolateria there that makes these wonderful filled chocolate candies in the shape of Mt. Rainier...so tasty...

And my favorite pancakes come from that fine little town of Snoqualmie Falls.

...Used to love water skiing on Lake Samamish (Ted Bundy used to love dumping bodies there too).

ahh more good times..I love seeing new audio companies in old places of mine...

[ScottMayo]

this thread caught my eye so I thought I would chime in.  Whilst perusing the article about Aperion spekers I noticed the Aperion ad...yes it's right next to the article about their speakers but that's actually quite normal.  You'll find that in Stereophile, TAS, Inner Ear, etc... In fact you'll find that happening in mountain bike mags, motorcycle mags, automobile mags, video game mags. etc etc etc...do you think it odd that Minolta or Canon advertise within the pages of Digital Camera?

Advertising is a problem anywhere anyone claims to be giving an unbiased opinion. Camera mags are full of tips and techniques, and those are useful in general. They also contain camera reviews, and those you should generally ignore, or at least take with a large grain of salt.

Audiophilia is a little unusual among gear-hobbies. We get more hype, more new products, more outrageous claims and more plain old you've-got-to-be-kidding BS than just about any industry going. The only place I see as many overblown adjectives and promises of eternal rapture, is in car brochures printed by the car manufacturers themselves. (I suspect wine tasters get fed the same kind of schlock, actually, but I don't see those mags.)

To deal with all the nonsense, it would be nice to have independent reviewers available. Unfortunately, Consumer Reports doesn't handle audiophile reviews, and all the other audio reviewers are wholly owned subsidaries of audio manifacturers.

Use your ears. Use independent lab tests, when you can get 'em. Everything else is bumf.

[Scott F.]

and all the other audio reviewers are wholly owned subsidaries of audio manifacturers

Thats a pretty wide stroke you just painted.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/monsoonfpf1000_e.html

For your information, shortly (within months) after that article got publish, they stopped producing home audio speakers.

I could point to review after review where the writer criticizes the product.

Mark Twain may have said it best, It is better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

[ScottMayo]

and all the other audio reviewers are wholly owned subsidaries of audio manifacturers

Thats a pretty wide stroke you just painted.

It's called hyperbole. It's fun, try some - this is certainly the right venue for it. Along with sarcastic overstatement and outright fantasy, they make life very interesting. (Such as my persistant outright fantasy that people will recognise hyperbole when they see it - a delusion that never fails to make my day-to-day exciting.)

Yes, I do recognise that TNT doesn't accept advertising dollars and that those reviews are unpaid. That gives you the kind of freedom that's more needed in the industry. It's a good thing. What I wrote supports the existance of the unfunded groups like TNT; I was only denigrating the professional reviewers who do it for dollars. I'm sorry that wasn't clearer, but then the thread is about advertising, so I was thinking it could be taken as read. I probably shouldn't have confused the issue by mentioning Consumer Reports.

Meanwhile, someone wake me when Stereophile does a slash and burn on a big outfit - it's been awhile since I've seen that - or six moons announces that some tweak (whose manufacturer they've been touting for months) does absolutely nothing.

(Of course, if you're really a paid reviewer who at one point got slapped around by an editor because you panned a ad-buying manufacturer, and you threatened to walk if you didn't get printed - then my hat's off to you. That kind of radical, won't-bow-down love of truth absolutely impresses the heck out of me.)

[CIAudio]

I'm sure that advertisers sometimes get "special treatment" by reviewers, but I think most of them try not to be biased. Our products have received several rave reviews and we've never advertised in ANY of the magazines.

It's kind of a double-edged sword...we'd actually like to advertise in the mags, but if we did...readers would think that's why we got a good review.


-Dusty-

[ScottMayo]

I'm sure that advertisers sometimes get "special treatment" by reviewers, but I think most of them try not to be biased. Our products have received several rave reviews and we've never advertised in ANY of the magazines.

And what a relief it must be to reviewers, to discuss products that aren't going to get them in trouble.  

Unless they are under orders to give nice reviews to such manufacturers, in the hope of attracting future ad dollars.   You just can't win, once money enters an equation...

It's kind of a double-edged sword...we'd actually like to advertise in the mags, but if we did...readers would think that's why we got a good review.

Then advertise in mags that don't review you, and take reviews in mags that don't carry your ads. Not only is this wonderfully honest and practically countercultural, but you'll confuse the heck out of the mag editors, and that would be fun.

[Scott F.]

It's called hyperbole. It's fun, try some - this is certainly the right venue for it. Along with sarcastic overstatement and outright fantasy, they make life very interesting. (Such as my persistant outright fantasy that people will recognise hyperbole when they see it - a delusion that never fails to make my day-to-day exciting.)

For the life of me, I will never understand this type of behavior. It speaks volumes.  

When it comes to Stereophile writing negative reviews, I remember plenty. Mike F and Art have written two in the past year or so that I can remember. And if you've ever read JAs notes in the measurements portions of the reviews, he blasts gear on a regular basis.

(Of course, if you're really a paid reviewer who at one point got slapped around by an editor because you panned a ad-buying manufacturer, and you threatened to walk if you didn't get printed - then my hat's off to you. That kind of radical, won't-bow-down love of truth absolutely impresses the heck out of me.)

In fact I am a paid reviewer. I write for ETM now. To date, I have never been forced to review anything, especially from one that advertizes with Steve. Nor have I ever reviewed anything from one of Steves advertizers. Lastly, Steve doesn't edit anything other than grammer and spelling (he has his hands full with me). He has yet to (and never will) boost or lower ratings, change wording of reviews to make them more positive or negative than I've ever submitted.

Same went for Lucio over at TNT. Literally, he didn't edit, he just posted the articles.

I hate to burst your bubble, there is no secret conspiracy between manufacturers and reviewers. I am only speaking from my personal experiences in the past 6 or 7 years of writing. The manufacturers are kept in the dark until the review is finished. At that point the review is sent to them for fact checking. They have NO opportunity to re-write the reviews (much to many peoples chigrin). Plus, my two editors have never put any pressure on me to change anything I have ever written. But, you would never know any of this. Why? Because you don't write. You are content perpetuating complete and utter falsehoods on audio boards.

But speaking to people like you, who feel everything review related holds some deep dark hidden agenda, I am truely wasting my time.

Thin skinned? Nope.
Tired of this same old crap being spread around? You bet.

[CIAudio]

Then advertise in mags that don't review you, and take reviews in mags that don't carry your ads. Not only is this wonderfully honest and practically countercultural, but you'll confuse the heck out of the mag editors, and that would be fun.

Not a bad idea...maybe I'll advertise in TONE (but then I could never let them review our products)  

The fact is...people are cynical. If we support the magazines by advertising, it's looked at as a bribe. This is too bad because the public needs the magazines to keep informed of new products, the magazines need advertisers to keep their publication going, and we need to advertise our products.

[chadh]

Suppose it were true that a magazine simply afforded rave reviews to every manufacturer buying advertising.  How long would that magazine survive?

The presumption must be that such a magazine would provide inaccurate assessments in some portion of their reviews.  If this happens the publication risks losing credibility with consumers, which in turn would make it impossible to convince manufacturers to spend advertising dollars.  Ultimately, the interests of the magazine may not be well served by pandering to their advertisers.

I think it's right to be cynical about the reviews that you read in any magazine.  But it's like almost any other instance where you seek advice - the first thing you need to do is to determine the credibility of the source.

What I find really interesting is the question of whether a new publication (e.g. Tone) or an old one (e.g. Stereophile) appears more credible?  Certainly, Stereophile has a track record while Tone does not.  But being new in the business, it would seem sensible for a new publication to make serious investments in their credibility.  On the other hand, a place like Stereophile, having established credibility over a long period, has every incentive to cash in on it.  After all, why build a reputation if you're never going to spend it?

Personally I don't think that it makes a lot of sense for publications to take great risks with their credibility by misrepresenting the quality of reviewed products.  But I think they have much greater freedom than simply to say "this is good" or "this is bad."  Avoiding direct comparisons between products is obviously a tactic, and overlooking weaknesses is another.  Lauding a product for how cute it looks is also pretty feeble.  But as long as everyone acknowledges these tactics for what they are, we can always read between the lines.

Chad

[thayerg]

The reason most mags never truly pan a piece of equipment is that they'd rather devote review space to the good products. Or so they say.

[Scott F.]

The reason most mags never truly pan a piece of equipment is that they'd rather devote review space to the good products. Or so they say.

There is a lot of truth to what you say. In contrast though, in recent years, equipment has come a long way. With the advent of China's economy and better quality assurance, coupled with their ability to access to quality materials, the costs of equipment have come down, while (perceptable) quality of sound has gone up. In turn, manufacturers worldwide have raised the bar. This is a case where the industry listened to comments from users and reviews and made the gear sound better.

Remember not too long ago when DVD players used as CD players was unheard of because of their horrid sound? Now, you've got guys (me included) who are using pieces like the $125 Pioneer universal players in their systems as sources. Does it sounds as good as some multi-thousand dollar unit? No. Does it sound decent? You bet it does, otherwise I (and others) wouldn't use it.

It's really tuff finding a truely bad sounding piece of gear out there anymore. In turn a reviewers job is to accurately describe how it sounds to them. Here, bias absolutely comes into play (at least with me).

There is no doubt that if I searched, I could find a crappy sounding piece of gear to review. But in finding that gear that begs the question, Why would I want to review it?

Let me use the car rental analogy. Assume you are a very sucessful business person that travels constantly. At home you drive a Lexus, Cadillac, Lincoln or some other luxury car. When you go out on the road and stop at Enterprise Rentals, you can rent anything you wish, money doesn't matter. Would you ever find yourself renting a four cylinder Pontiac Sunfire? Highly doubtful. You would stick to the luxury class autos because it has those features and the ride that you enjoy. If Enterprise were out of luxury class cars, you would probably walk down the concourse to Hertz or Avis until you found something you liked.

As a reviewer, I go out and find my own gear to review, things that interest me. As I understand it, not all magazines work this way though. Since I have that freedom, I (personally) gravitate towards things I pre-determine might sound good and may be of interest to others. I call the manufacturer and we talk about the design and features of a given piece of gear. At that point, I make a determination whether I am interested in reviewing that piece of gear, again based upon my pre-determinations and bias.

After listening to so many pieces of gear of differing designs (and knowing a bit about design and how individual pieces and parts sound myself), I end up with a relatively narrow focus. The last thing that I want to do is end up with a piece of gear that I don't like and am now forced to live with for several months.

Personally, I feel life is too short for that kind of self induced abuse. Add to that, I don't get paid enough for a review to put up with something I don't care for. If it makes me dread listeing to one of the true loves of my life (music), I don't want any part of it.

When I run across that odd piece of gear, do I review it and trash it? Most often the answer is no. Right here at this point is where sujectivity comes into play. Just because I don't like a piece of gear does not mean that others don't love it and that it doesn't perform well (on paper). Perfect example, I don't care for the digital amps that are on the market today. Of the ones I've listened to, Audio Research comes the closest to what I consider 'music'.

Is this a slam against Vinny and the other guys out there? Not by a long shot. This is subjectivity and personal bias coming into play. Becasue of my own bias, I will probably never review nor own a digital amp. On the other hand, there are tons of guys that absolutely love Vinny's gear. And that's great, honest.

Remember, you may like blondes while I might shy towards brunettes. Vinny may go after redheads while Marbles will take any of them because they are all women.

In the end, there isn't any need to be suspect of the reviewing industry. The crooked reviewers and mags don't last in the industry. Manufacturers talk amongst themselves and other reviewers to check out a potential reviewers credentials (or I'd hope they would). And I would sure hope that a manufacturer would look at a revewiers bias before they sent him a piece of gear.

What you as the reader have to do is determine if your bias matches that of the reviewer. It forces you to read many of that persons other reviews to see if you are philisophically (sp) aligned with him. Only then can you make a determination if you might like a piece of gear they have just reviewed.

As a writer, I have to make sure that you are aware of my bias in every one of my reviews and also in my bio. I also have to explain as best I can how a piece sounds on all levels. I also have to (when I'm technically capable) explain design concepts so that you have a better understanding of how and why this thing works. If I don't do that, I've not done my job.

Do I and other reviewers rave on occasion? Sure we do. Music is very emotional and if a piece brings us closer to the music, to the point that we forget that we are listening to gear and become absorbed in the music performance, you bet we're going to rave.

Remember, we are music lovers first, otherwise we'd all be fishing or golfing.

[TONEPUB]

Hi All:

Thought I would set you straight as to why we do what we do.

I started TONE because after writing in the Photography world for 7 years, I figured I had enough actual writing experience working for real magazines (Macworld, The Robb Report, The New York Times, C-net and about 15 others) that I finally knew how to write well enough to convey my ideas.  

Im 46 and have been building, modding and buying audio gear since I was 14, so I have a tremendous amount of passion and excitement for this stuff.

A little over a year ago, I sent a query to Stereophile and TAS to see if I could write for them, after reading both of these magazines for 25 years, I thought it would be really cool to work for one of the two biggies.  I got a nice letter from John Atkinson telling me he liked my stuff but didn't need another writer at this time.  Robert Harley also replied, liked my stuff, checked my references and gave me a shot.  I wrote 7 reviews for TAS and AV Guide, but it wasn't a fit and it wasn't fun.

When I went to CES, they told me to make a list of 20 pieces of gear for a "wish list to review", and I was nixed on all of them. This one didn't advertise, this one only had five dealers, blah blah blah.  I reminded Wayne Garcia that many years ago I dropped a ton of money on a preamp from this little company called Krell that no one had heard of, and that if I (and many of you) didn't do the same, Krell and many others wouldn't be here.

When have you seen Modwright,  Wavac or Pacific Creek in TAS?  Didn't think so.

Most of what you see in the first issue of TONE is the stuff that was part of my CES list.  I didn't plan to have any advertisers in the first few issues of TONE, but when I was talking to the manufacturers for equipment loans, the first words out of their mouths were  "what are your ad rates?"

As we give all of our content away, including reprints of the articles to mfrs
(which TAS and Stereophile do not do) we have to make money somewhere.  This is my full time job, I don't do this part time.

But, the dilemma of being honest or at least earnest.....

I know a lot of you out there would like to see some bad reviews.  Here's why you probably won't see them in my magazine.

Let's speculate for a minute that you make an amplifier, and you make what you think to make a great amplifier, but you have no dealers and you make them in your garage.
Now right away the majors aren't even going to talk to you, so where do you go?
You come to me, 6Moons and the other online guys, because we will give you a break.

Now, let's say I really don't like the way your amplifier sounds. (the one that you have spent five years of your life that you could have spent with your wife, family and freinds designing)  Do I say your amplifier is crap?  Chances are, it isn't.  Chances are, Im not using it with the speakers or other components that you used to voice it, perhaps Im using the one pair of speakers that you KNOW it sounds bad with, but hey, everyone wants bad reviews don't they?

Well, I don't know about the other guys, but for me, I'd call you up, see if I could get my hands on the gear that you claim it makes magic with or send it back.

Don't get me wrong, I heard a bunch of stuff at CES I didn't like.  I hate Wilson speakers, but that doesn't mean Dave Wilson makes crap, he makes good stuff, I just dont like it.  Hence, Ill never call them and ask for a pair for review and he will probably never want to advertise with me.
Consequently, I love the sound of Quads, but Ill bet there's a hundred of you that think they suck.  Does that mean they are bad?

As Mr. Nugent said earlier in this forum, I did not mention advertising to him at RMAF. Everyone got the same story, we will review your gear, whether you advertise with us or not.  Next month we have a review of some great Monarchy amplifiers.  They don't have a budget to even advertise with us, but they make great gear, so they are in.  We have a few other things in store from companies that may never advertise with us and that's just fine.  It just so happens that a lot of people wanted to get on board right out of the chute, and on one level I really appreciate their support.

My goal with TONE is not to pass ultimate judgement on anyones stuff.  Im trying to find gear that we all enjoy and want to tell you about.  For any of you that did read the magazine, we try to evaluate a piece of equipment within a certain context, with certain peripherals and music that we like and tell you what we found out.

Neither myself nor anyone else on the staff is trying to tell you what to buy.  What we are trying to do is take more of an amazon.com approach.  If you like SET 300b amps, we are going to try and find four or five more for you to investigate before you write a check.  If you like solid state, same thing.

Unfortunately for our audience, you have to read us for a while to see what you think.  For those of you that have the same tastes as we do, you will be able to judge from there.  I like a lot of the same kind of gear and sound that Sam Tellig seems to like, so when I see a review on something that he likes, I find a way to check it out, usually we agree.  On the other hand, I don't agree with much of anything Wayne Garcia writes, he has a pair of Kharmas which I think sound way too bright for me, but that may be the sound that is just right for you, your ears and your record collection.

As for the ad placement, both my wife Jean (our art director) and myself used to run an advertising agency and commercial photography studio for years and to us from a marketing perspective, it made the best sense to put the ads in the middle of the reviews wherever possible because if you are reading about something, the next logical thought is "where can I get it?".  50% of the people that sent us feedback got this right away and the other 50% thought there was a big conspiracy.

I know some of you think that in order to be 100% objective, we can't take any money from anyone, but that's just not reality.

So I hope this will clear some of the murkiness up.  We thank all of you for tuning in and I hope that we can keep some of the people happy some of the time.

Besides, this is supposed to be fun.  Hopefully, we will expose you to a few pieces of gear that you may not have considered before.  Maybe a few of the little guys like Modwright will be the Conrad Johnsons of the next generation and we can say we were there along with them.

So for those of you that have read this far, I applaud your patience.  Sorry this couldn't be shorter, but there is a lot of ground to cover.

Thanks for listening,

Jeff Dorgay
Publisher
TONE-Audio

[miklorsmith]

Not everyone's a conspiricisisisist.

Thanks for the words.  I thought your mag was a stellar first outing.

Welcome aboard!