Balanced connection in Bryston AMPs

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oris98

Balanced connection in Bryston AMPs
« on: 18 Oct 2005, 08:11 pm »
Hi James,
Is the XLR connections in Bryston AMP are true balanced which has sonic improvement over the RCA connection in addition to the extra 6 db grain ?

Many thanks.

thomaspf

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Balanced connection in Bryston AMPs
« Reply #1 on: 19 Oct 2005, 12:19 am »
With true balanced I hope you don't mean to amplify each phase independently and then sum the amplified results.

That would would partially defeat the purpose of a balanced connection. The noise rejection will be way more accurate when you subtract the input and amplify the delta.

Cheers

   Thomas

James Tanner

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Balanced connection in Bryston AMPs
« Reply #2 on: 19 Oct 2005, 12:19 am »
Hi Oris,

Balanced lines offer 'common mode noise rejection'. Which means that any noise picked up on the cables is cancelled at the input. This makes the noise floor of your system the noise floor of your electronics and does not allow the outside world RF etc from increasing the noise floor of your audio system.

james

James Tanner

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Balanced connection in Bryston AMPs
« Reply #3 on: 19 Oct 2005, 01:25 am »
Hi Oris,

I thought you might find this artical I wrote helpful.


Is Your System Out Of Balance?

One question which keeps coming up over and over is the controversy regarding audio components being "fully balanced" versus what is sometimes referred to as "balanced converting to single ended" at the input of the electronic component (preamp, electronic crossover, amplifier etc). The correct term for this balanced converting to single ended is more accurately referred to as "differential amplifier balancing"  

Popular mythology has seen fit to 'bless' the concept of 'fully-balanced' (meaning of course, two completely separate signal paths through a component, with its attendant doubling of parts cost and complexity, and halving of reliability). This approach completely misses the point, which is, of course, to eliminate hum and noise picked up by the audio cables feeding the component.  

The reason for this is that a differential amplifier, and this is -REALLY IMPORTANT- ‘rejects any common-mode noise’ which appears at its input, by a factor equal to its common-mode rejection ratio, (normally over 1000:1). A 'fully-balanced' circuit has a common-mode rejection ratio of precisely zero, since all signal, common-mode or not, is simply amplified and passed along via the two signal paths. It then remains up to the following component to attempt to reject that amplified noise, if it has a differential amplifier.  

Thus, fully-balanced circuitry is subject to passing along any noise which might be picked up on all the cables. Then it hits the final component in the system, usually the power amp, where the differential amplifier at its input is left to deal with the sum total of the common mode noise in the signal path, (multiplied by all the gain in the system).    I don't think this is an ideal scenario. If each component, (source, preamp, electronic crossover, power amp), had its own differential amplifier input, it would cancel any common-mode noise which appeared ahead of it, rather than amplifying it.  

Bryston makes a product which operates in the fully-balanced mode a microphone preamp (called a BMP 2), but this unit has an input transformer which rejects common-mode noise by a factor of over 250,000:1. The reason it operates on two separate signal paths is to expand its dynamic range beyond what digital storage media can accommodate. In the studio you can easily go from a whisper to a scream in an instant. Since the next step in the signal path is into digital storage media (CD, DVD etc.) which has a know maximum signal level, this separate signal path is obviously not a concern in any following signal-processing on its way to your living room, and your ears.  

All the above simply points out that what has been called fully balanced circuitry has a host of disadvantages from cost to noise overload to complexity and reduction in reliability. It has no useful advantages in the digital or analog signal chain beyond the microphone preamp. Bryston audio components with the exception of our BMP-2 microphone preamplifier, all operate their balanced inputs on ‘differential amplifier technology’.

NewBuyer

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Balanced connection in Bryston AMPs
« Reply #4 on: 19 Oct 2005, 07:46 am »
Hi James Tanner,

I have been hearing from multiple sources that unless your interconnect cables are REALLY long, then using balanced connections provides no actual audible benefit over standard RCA connections.  Is this correct information?

nicolasb

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Balanced connection in Bryston AMPs
« Reply #5 on: 19 Oct 2005, 11:23 am »
That will depend to some extent on your source. The Lexcicon MC12B processor, for example, sounds much better than the plain MC12. There's virtually no difference between the MC8B and MC8.

Using XLR connections also largely eliminates the possibility of ground loops, which is no bad thing.

If memory serves, Bryston amps actually quote a higher SNR for balanced input than they do for unbalanced.

James Tanner

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Balanced connection in Bryston AMPs
« Reply #6 on: 19 Oct 2005, 11:49 am »
Hi Newbuyer,

The longer the cable the more important Balanced lines become. The cables in your system are antenna to the outside world so any RF or Electromechanical energy floating around out there causes noise problems.

Today with cell phones -pagers-etc the noise is everywhere. So I tend to recommend Balanced lines if you have the faciities to use them.

There is one issue though - balanced circuits can be acommplished in a number of different ways - Transformers, IC's and Discrete circuits. Most equipement I have looked at uses ICs. We use Discrete Class A circuits in all our balanced systems and the performance advantages are significant.

james