consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!

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Brandon B

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consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!
« on: 21 Apr 2003, 07:29 pm »
There's a new $199  DVD player out:

http://www.vinc.us/product_bravo_d1.htm

that has a DVI output.  So any of you with digital RPTVs or front PJs (Rob - are you and your piano listening?) that have a DVI input, look into it.  By all reports (several threads at AVS, in the $5k and up PJ area and the DVD player area), this thing kicks butt over other DVD players limited to component.

I will have one in my hot little hands by Wed.  Going to calibrate and A/B it with my older unit, and let you know what I find.

Other upsides - plays MPEG4 and DiVX disks.  Outputs 480p, 720p and 1080i out of digital.  Alleged to have no chroma bugs.

Downsides - component inputs are said to be weak on PQ, analog audio out is crap, and you must enter the world of DVI cables and their 5 meter limitation (only a problem for those of us with a PJ at one end of the room and components at the other end.

Digital video from end to end.  With no HTPC.

BB

Rob Babcock

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consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!
« Reply #1 on: 21 Apr 2003, 08:49 pm »
Cool, I'll be interested to how it looks.  I'm afaid 5M wouldn't get it done for me, but it's cool to see a DVI-capable machine.

jqp

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consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!
« Reply #2 on: 22 Apr 2003, 03:52 am »
Interesting - my Sony 40XBR800 has the DVI...

Brandon B

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consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!
« Reply #3 on: 23 Apr 2003, 10:52 am »
There are ways around the 5m, but they are $$.  How long do you need?

My cable arrives tonight, will post my comparisons (old player is a pioneer F727 non-progressive).

BB

OBF

consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!
« Reply #4 on: 23 Apr 2003, 08:46 pm »
Is the 5m DVI cable max length going to be a permanent limitation to the technology, or something more related to early implementation?  My component cables are 30' long and I don't see any alternative to that other than moving my DVD player and getting 30' audio cables.  If I switch to using a universal source for multichannel music, then the long video cables are really the only option.  Just curious how the DVI inputs will work in the future.

KCI-JohnP

consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!
« Reply #5 on: 25 Apr 2003, 08:06 am »
I didn't know about this 5m limit on DVI cable.  Mine is 50ft long!!  I have to run a S video cable out of my DVD player to a iScan line doubler and then a 50ft DVI cable to my projector.  I saw a review on this player and was interested, just spent $500 on a Sony NS900, wonder if I should return it???  What happens if your cable is over 5m?

Brandon B

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consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!
« Reply #6 on: 25 Apr 2003, 05:57 pm »
Comments on image improvement after some DVI info.  OK, after more reading, here's what I have heard (some conflicts with other):

DVI signals through copper conductors are supposedly guaranteed to work through up to 5 meters of cable.  This is for maximum supported resolution over dual link copper wire DVI.  The issue is supposedly one of signal timing (arrival of the bits) rather than attentuation, similar to "jitter".  It is easily recognized as a problem by what are referred to as "sparklies", that is flashing pixels in the image that are plainly the wrong color.  If you are not getting sparklies, your cable is working perfectly.  There are no "degrees" of improvement here.

Some technical people in the other forums where we are discussing this have said since the devices I am using are single link DVI, and only at half maximum resolution at that, you can effectively go much longer distances with no problem.  That seems contrary to me if it is a timing issue rather than attentuation, but I am not an EE.

Silver cables will give some improvement, and fiber optic cables with converters can go hundreds of feet, but these are both costly.

Now on the forum and thread about this unit where I learned about it, a couple dozen people have tried it.  Some are using standard DVI copper cables up to 50 ft in length and having NO problem.  So the "half the bandwidth/double the length" argument may be true, or it maybe that these people are lucky and the spec is just conservative.

One individual had problems with a shorter more expensive cable, switched to a longer more industrial cable and was fine.  Bottom line.  For upscaled DVD or such images, you will probably be OK at 30 feet or so.  Maybe even at 50.

I am using a 2m cable as my rack is full and it is easier for me to make a 35 foot SPDIF coax.

Now, onto my review of the picture improvement (watched about 2/3 of SW Ep II and LOTR EE):

YES!

All video noise gone. I mean ALL and I mean GONE. The much maligned "fixed pattern noise" and "vertical banding" of the LCD PJ itself is still there, but otherwise the picture is soooo clean. Watching SW Ep II, Lucas uses a lot of anchored camera shots. In these shots, anything that was CGI and was not in motion looked like a paused still image. Absolutely clean and still. The top and bottom rows of pixels at the edge of the "black bars" where I used to see some activity are now dead clean, like I have masking (I don't).

Detail is improved.   I always look for details when watching these DVDs that I noticed in the (very well run) 70mm theater where I saw this film. This is the first time I could see ALL of them.  The first time I have felt my image looked dimensional.  Examples:  the spinning "turbine" blades in the engines on Amidala's ship land on the pad at Coruscant, now clear even spinning at faster speed.  The waving grass in LOTR when they arrive at the watchtower where Frodo is stabbed is now completely defined.  

Color is better. Again in LOTR, one detail I always focus on is the blood on the black rider's horse's hoof when they first encounter him. Before it was discernible as blood, but lacked the clarity it had in the theater. That is there, the red comes through plainly as it did ni the theater.

Motion-based decompression artifacts are not noticeable as such. Sweeps across things like leafy trees no longer have discernible pixel blotching, but instead read as regular motion blur just as with film.

In short, this is undoubtedly the single most beneficial improvement you could make to your PJ's picture.  Finally felt my image was approaching "film-like".   I found myself thinking "who gives a crap about HD-DVD?".  Certainly I will, when I put some of my disks with lower quality transfers, but right now, I don't, I'm giddy.

Caveats: My old DVD player is a Pioneer D-F727. This is a 300 disc non-progressive unit, identical to the elite model except for case and audio DACs. The model came out about 3 or 4 years ago listing for about $1100. Consequently, it is not even last year's state of the art, but is certainly a reasonable quality player. However, based on comments in the Bravo thread, there is still a noticeable improvement over newer, more capable machines though. Layer change on my pioneer was pretty good, about 1/2 second. The Bravo beats that. It is still perceptible, but is only on the order of 1/10th second, feels like a frame or three was dropped rather than an actual pause.

Several people are reporting functional issues with the machine. I have not checked its audio performance as this requires me to make a 35' digital audio cable (weekend work). Some report noise and locking problems with the coax digital. Others have reported video lockup and skipping errors. I saw none of the video problems so far.   It also fails on some progressive (3:2?) flag errors on some older disks (Galaxy Quest opening sequence).  This will apply to a small number of movies though.

Most hate the remote. I'm in the minority on this. It is very poorly thought out and very hard to see (in daylight, impossible in the dark), but has many functions and once you know the buttons is at least useable.

Worst case - return shipping and $20 restock fee if it doesn't work out. But you;ll want to make it work out.

Rob - find a way to make this work.  Component does not compare.

If you have a smaller HDTV, I am not sure the difference will be as dramatic, since the large screen makes defects so noticeable, but it surely will be better.  

For me, this was like moving my couch from 11 feet back to 16 feet or so, but with no decrease in image size.

I will post more once I have audio hooked up and a few more hours of use on this thing.

BB

KCI-JohnP

consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!
« Reply #7 on: 4 May 2003, 05:04 pm »
Hi Brandon,
   Thanks for the response, tons of good info.  Let me ask you this, I have my dvd player(Sony NS900) running with an S-Video cord right to a i-scan line doubler, from there it runs straight to my projector via a DVI cord.  If I had a dvd player such as the one being discussed and ran it straight to the projector via a DVI cord do you think it would be a better pic than I am getting now?  Thanks for your input.
John

PeteG

consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!
« Reply #8 on: 7 May 2003, 05:44 pm »
Quote
do you think it would be a better pic than I am getting now?


John- It's hard to say without a side by side test, but the D1 look's
great very film like using the DVI output and by far the best looking DVD player I've
seen.

I'm using a 3m DVI single link cable going into a Sony GWII
and the player is set on 720P.

Rob Babcock

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consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!
« Reply #9 on: 7 May 2003, 06:27 pm »
If the thing is a piece of junk it wouldn't matter how good the picture.  I would like to get a bit more info on if it's reliable and just how much problem it has with the coax signal unlocking, etc.  The price is low, but if it's got Apex-level quality I'll pass.

I did see a 9m DVI cable.  There absolutely IS NO workaround in my room; either the cable is long enough or no go.

I'll be watching this one, and I am definately interested.

Sa-dono

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consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!
« Reply #10 on: 7 May 2003, 07:11 pm »
I'm surprised this unit has gotten all the attention it has. Just wait for the Samsung unit IMO.

PeteG

consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!
« Reply #11 on: 7 May 2003, 08:03 pm »
Quote
I'm surprised this unit has gotten all the attention it has


I picked a $1200 Denon 3800 and had it for a week and I had to return
it because of audio drop out's and it would freeze up, but it had very good
PQ.

Now I have a $200 player that has better PQ (using DVI output) and with no problems.
Is it made cheap of course it is, it's very inexpensive.

IMO would I wait for the Samsung 931, Yes
more expensive but better BQ.
-Pete

Rob Babcock

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consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!
« Reply #12 on: 7 May 2003, 09:38 pm »
Ouch!  At least you got your money back.  I've had lots of Denon gear and it's all been dead reliable, but I've never had a Denon DVD player.

So you haven't had any probs with your new unit?  How is the build quality?  Does it seem like it'll hold up?  I'd like to hold out for a more full featured unit, preferably a universal player.  Once the first few DVI-capable units are out, you'd think the floodgates would open.

For $200 though it may be worth it, even if I did replace it down the road with something nicer.  For the time being it'd have to share the rack with my DV-45A, which plays DVD-A & SACD.

Sa-dono

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consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!
« Reply #13 on: 7 May 2003, 10:38 pm »
Quote from: PeteG

I picked a $1200 Denon 3800 and had it for a week and I had to return
it because of audio drop out's and it would freeze up, but it had very good
PQ.


The 3800 has been known to have many problems. Supposedly the newer units don't have the problems..but I still wouldn't trust them.

bubba966

consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!
« Reply #14 on: 8 May 2003, 05:17 am »
Quote from: Rob Babcock
Cool, I'll be interested to how it looks.  I'm afaid 5M wouldn't get it done for me, but it's cool to see a DVI-capable machine.


So size DOES matter after all huh? :lol:

If 5M doesn't do it for you, how about this? http://pacificcable.com/Picture_Page.asp?DataName=DDI-A150

A 500M DVI cable! :o

It too can be yours for the paltry sum of $3,250...

PeteG

consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!
« Reply #15 on: 8 May 2003, 06:21 am »
Rob- Your not going to get great build quality for $200,
but it's not terrible either. I haven't had any problems with mine,
but some have.

I bought the Bravo D1 for one reason, the best PQ and you can only
get it using the DVI output.

I was not interested in SACD or DVD-Audio, I have other players
for that. The Samsung should be out in June.
-Pete

Brandon B

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consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!
« Reply #16 on: 8 May 2003, 09:24 pm »
IMO, unless you are running another DVI deck with scaling (the Samsung) or an HTPC, you ARE going to get a better picture with this thing.  That has been the universal opinion of everyone who has this thing whose opinion I have read (about 30-40 people).

Running with Svid into an iScan, you have already done most of the compromising of the picture by using Svideo.  From your iScan on, it is as good as it can be, but you've already done a D to A, and muddied it up by combing all you chrominance data into one signal.

Build quality - the unit is built fine.  It is little operational glitches that you might run into.  Mine refused to recognize or play my Harry Potter II disk 5 times straight, 3 one night, 2 the next day.  It has since played the disk flawlessly twice, and loaded it and begun to play it another few times with no problem.  So maybe there was some dust or something.  Other than that, mine has performed without problems whatsoever.  And the company does seem fairly upstanding, if unresponsive in the short term due to minimal staffing or something

They charge a 10% ($20) restock fee if you ar enot happy with the thing..  Seems like a no-brainer for me, but hey, different priorities.  I'd keep the thing if it took 3-4 tries and five minutes every time I loaded a disk, as long as it played thru OK.  Picture is that good.

I will be watching a good 15 hours of movies this weekend (family out of town) so we'll see how that shakes out and I'll report back any issues or not.

Still think any of you with FP are nuts to pass it up at this price though.

Brandon B

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consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!
« Reply #17 on: 8 May 2003, 09:28 pm »
Rob, there are some guys running 10m cables with no sparklies (in other words working perfectly).  So it might be worth the try.

BB

Brandon B

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consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!
« Reply #18 on: 9 May 2003, 02:15 pm »
The guy from Vinc (makers of the Bravo D1) is rounding up a supplier and is going to start offering DVI cables in a few days.

On the dependability front - player took 2 tries to play the following disks last night - Spirit and Final Fantasy.

Played SW Ep II  and Ep I fine.  Seems to only be some disks it does this on.  Once they were playing, there were no problems.

I'll be trying a half dozen disks over the weekend.

BB

GCS

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consumer DVD deck with DVI output available NOW!
« Reply #19 on: 9 May 2003, 04:07 pm »
Mine is on order as well.

Can't wait to get it and hook it up to my HT1000!!

Greg