[Johng316]

Hi guys,

I've just bought a new car (my very first brand new car), and the stock system is so brite it's almost unlistenable.  My speakers at home have ruined me for low-end gear, I suppose.

Still, I'm a value shopper, and I'm looking for new speakers.  Thought maybe you guys could help me find a good bang/buck option that would also sound good.

My car takes 6.5 inch and currently has tweets in the A pillars (Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution).  The car is a bit loud.  I prefer warm to Bright, and I am much more interested in sound quality than SPL.  I don't plan to install a sub at this point in time.

I listened to MB Quart (highly regarded), but I found these to be way too bright.

I listened to JL Audio, and I found their midrange to be missing.

I liked the Boston Acoustics Pro-Series separates.  Nice mid-range, highs not too fatiguing.

I also liked the Boston Z6 speakers even better, but at $1000 MSRP very tough to swallow.  Very nice imaging though.

I listened to the Diamond Hex S600's and really liked these.

Any other suggestions that would fit my listening prefs?

What kind of amp do I need to get?

Any recommendations on head units?

I could probably go $150 on an amp (willing to buy used), and $300 on a head unit.  Budget for speakers is probably $300-$600.

Thanks!

John G

[ZooDog]

You might want to try CDT Audio.  They use a silk dome tweeter that is reportedly much less bright than the tweeters typically found in car component systems.  Have you listened to Focals?  I have a brand new set of Focal Polykevlar 165K2's that I would be willing to sell you for $200.00 + shipping.  They would not fit in the doors of my WRX so I can't use them.  I've never heard them myself so you would have to research that.

As far as an amp goes 50wpc should do fine.  I bought an ARC from ampman.com and it has done me well so far.  For a head unit check out Nakamichi.  They are available cheap from cbrstereo.com.

How is the Lancer?  I'm dying to drive one!

[Tyson]

I am by NO means a car audio guy, but when I was shopping for a system for my wife's car, I found the JL Audio speakers to sound good in the less expensive price ranges.

[ZooDog]

I forgot to add in my previous post that I actually have JL XR series components in my car.  I have really not listened to them that much since I put them in about a month ago because I have not had to do much driving, but I am liking them so far.  I still have a lot of tuning and tinkering to do with the whole system but it's been way too cold.  One thing you need to keep in mind is that speakers are going to sound totally different on the sound wall in the store than they will in your car.  I actually didn't like the JL's when I heard them in the store, but they were one of the only brands that would fit in my doors.  The salesman told me they would sound much better in the car and they did.

[DTH]

I'm curious to hear about the Evo driving experience as well. I am thinking about a new car and that one is on my short list. We bought my wife a WRX wagon about a year ago though, and I am not sure that another small cube/big boost awd compact will scratch my itch for variety. Unfortunately it is nearly impossible to get a test drive in one of those here. I have not even seen one yet.  

Regarding your car audio question, I have Infinity Kappas in my Jeep. They seem pretty bright to me, but the Jeep is not the best listening environment, it is quite loud and I mostly tune to talk radio while driving.

[nathanm]

Johng: Surely the amp must have a tone control, right?  Is that cranked up perhaps?

Bright speakers might come in pretty handy if the noise floor is high, as it is in my car.  Lots of grunge the sound has to penetrate which isn't an issue at home.

[Brad]

CDT, Dynaudio
There are also some nice compression horn-type speakers out there.

Also, I would recommend putting the tweeter down where the midrange is.   It makes for a better soundstage and a more coherent sound.
CDT has a 'Braxial' speaker that does this for you.

John - I've got a couple of car amps I'm not using (one has a tube buffer stage) that I'd let go really cheap.   PM me if you would like more details.
Both are new in the box.    

When you're looking for a head unit, try to find a CD player that doesn't have a single-bit D/A converter.   All of the single-bit car Cd units I've heard definitely sound "digital" and not musical.  


-Brad in Houston

[Chops]

Hi guys,


I listened to MB Quart (highly regarded), but I found these to be way too bright.


John G

MB Quart built their reputation souly on their tweeter design and the rich, natural sound they produce. And they achieve that by having tweeters that are capable of playing down to around 2400 - 2800Hz with a wide off-axis response. That's why their speakers are in almost all of the winning compition vehicles. They are one of the best, if not THE best out there for car audio. And I'm going to tell you why you should go back and give them another listen....

MB Quarts are known to be very bright right out of the box IF you leave the tweeter attenuation set at the factory default which is 0dB. Now the reason they are so bright at 0dB is because their component sets are designed to be able to have an extra midbass driver wired into the two-way crossover and then into that midbass's own crossover. And we all know that when you add one speaker to another identical speaker, their acoustic output doubles. For this reason, the tweeter has to be loud enough for it when you add that other midbass. But most poeple, me included, only run them with the one midbass per channel so they have to adjust the tweeter attenuation.

Once I installed mine just recently(PSD-216 & DKC-169), and listened to a variety of music, I ended up setting the tweeter attenuation to -4.5dB.

A couple more things about MB Quarts, they need at least 2 - 3 weeks of breakin before they really open up and they really need some good, clean power. I would say no less than 60 watts per channel.

I would go back to that dealer and ask them to adjust the tweeter attenuation for you and see how they sound then. Remember, they might have to adjust it a few times before it sounds right to you, and the Quarts might even have to break in more depending on how new they are.

Anyway, I just thought I would give you my 2 cents since I have been listening to MB Quarts for quite a few years now. I really hope you give them a second chance!  

[Andrew Lamb]

Eek, my ears hurt just thinking about MB Quart tweeters.

I really disagree, and find them way to agressive, even when attenuated to 6 dB even.

Focal makes a very good set of components in their PolyKevlar line, and an even better set in their Utopia line. These tweeters are a little more laid back than MB Quarts, but can get fatigueing after a while.

CDT has been mentioned, which are a very nice set last I heard.
Also I haven't heard a Diamond set, but I hear the older style (Eton drivers) were much nicer than the newer ones.

Personally I use Rainbow Pro components. These tweeters are very smooth, but perhaps too quiet for some peoples tastes. I like them, and the midrange is very warm, still detailed, and great midbass without being too overpowering.

Seas makes a Lotus set that can be had for about $600 I believe, but I'll have to see where you can find those, I don't know off hand.

Also Alpine is coming out with a new set using all Scan Speak drivers, supposed to be a killer set, but probably a little out of budget.

If you can DIY at all, or just want to shell out $20 and get Madisound to design some crossovers, then you can look into making your own set.
I would recommend the Peerless CSX series (CSX 165 C) with the funny looking square tweeter (53 NDT). Mount the crossovers in your glove compartment or under a seat, and put the tweeter as close to your mid in the door as possible.

[Johng316]

Thanks to everyone for your replies!  Please keep them coming.

Zoodog:  Pity you are all the way up there in Boston, or I would let you take my Evo out once it's broken in.  I can tell you that the Evo is all eveyrone says it is.  Very quick acceleration, and the best handling I've ever experienced... period.  Compared to the WRX, it's a bit "edgier."  More responsive in both acceleration and handling, but the WRX can certainly be modded to give you what the EVO's got.

I might be very interested in the Focals!  I'm assuming this is the component set and not just the midrange driver?  Also, I'm assuming that these are designed for use with a sub?  I wasn't planning on installing a sub.  I've heard some good things about Focals, though, so I'd like to hear more about how they sound.  I'll try to have a listen, as I just discovered someone around here who sells 'em.  Did they not fit because of depth?  What kind of mounting depth do they require?

Tyson:  Thanks for the lead.  I'll look for the JL brand and give them a listen.

DTH:  See my comments above on the EVO.  I would highly recommend it, but if you already have a WRX (assuming it's a stick), maybe you should just put a few thousand into modding the WRX and buy a more practical 2nd car?  I will say that the EVO gets attention wherever I go.  Grocery stores, gas stations, etc, anytime this car is parked, a crowd of 20-year-olds seems to flock around to ask questions about the car.  It's very well known to this demographic.  That's very fun.
I heard the Infinities at Circuit City, and they sounded good.  I liked the Diamond Hex's better, tho.

Nathanm:  Initially, this was the case.  I have also discovered that the "mitsubishi mix" the dealer gave me (a compilation of all the music in mitsubishi commercials) is a horrible recording; practically unlistenable.  My other CDs sound much better, but I'm still looking to improve.

Brad:  I have heard of CDT and am considering them also.  If I go this way, it looks like I'll be doing the install myself since I can't find a dealer.  Doing the install myself doesn't look too tough though.  Thanks for the lead on the head unit as well.

I'd be very interested in discussing the car amps you have.  PM the details my way if you would.

Chops:  Thanks for the info on MB Quart.  This brand certainly has a loyal following.  It's tough shopping for car speakers because it's true that they do sound different in the car than in the store.  This sucks, because it makes auditioning almost meaningless.     I'll go back and listen again.  My first impression was more "Klipsch" than "Dynaudio."  

All:  Several suggestions to mount the tweeter with the midrange for proper imaging.  Interesting.  Why do so many manufacturers mount tweeters in the A-pillar then?  In home audio, we are always trying to raise the tweets to ear level... why the exception in car audio?  I'm not challenging you by any means... just trying to learn.

I have plenty of room to mount a good amp and/or crossovers beneath front seats.

Thanks again for the help... keep it coming!

John G

[Andrew Lamb]

All: Several suggestions to mount the tweeter with the midrange for proper imaging. Interesting. Why do so many manufacturers mount tweeters in the A-pillar then? In home audio, we are always trying to raise the tweets to ear level... why the exception in car audio?

There is no exception in the car environment as far as the placement of the drivers is concerned for best sound, however, the pathlength differences definately are exceptional in the not so good sort of way. Unless you've modified your Evo to sit the driver directly in the middle, then you can agree that the left A-pillar is a lot closer to you then the right A-pillar. A lot of manufacturers place the speakers there because hey, they sell cars, not audio... well, yes audio, but it's usually Bose.

Also you can get very good results from mounting your tweeters in the A-pillars, but this is usually quite a bit of custom work to get the imaging right. Also you get a lot of weird phase relationships with the mid, unless you mount that up there too... perfect, um, almost.

Easier to do is place it all close together in the door. That way yo uhave pretty close to a single point source, and more equal pathlengths so it doesn't sound like you're always sitting left from stage.

Or if you're like most people who actually concentrate on the road while driving (boring!) then you could probably get away with mids in stock door locations, tweets in stock A-pillar locations, and you won't find it too frustrating to listen to.

[ZooDog]

John,

The Focals I have are a full component set with tweeters, 6.5" woofers, and crossovers.  There is a attenuator in the crossovers that allows you to lower the tweeter level if you find it to bright.

[Johng316]

Andrew:  Thanks for the info.  It clarifies things a lot for me.  Thanks!

Zoodog:  I might be interested in the Focals.  I'll want to get down to a shop and have a listen first.  Also, they look very deep.  Is there any way to determine how much mounting depth my doorpanels can handle without pulling the doorpanels?  Is there an internet reference somewhere about what will fit?

Thanks for answering all my newbie car audio questions, guys.

John G

[ZooDog]

Hi John,

If you go to www.crutchfield.com you should be able to look up the Lancer and see what size speakers will fit in the stock locations.  You can also check the forums at caraudioforum.com or elitecaraudio.com and see what info you can find there.  Unfortunately, a lot of Japanese cars have shallow doors but you may luck out.  I wish I could have fit them in my car.

Oh yeah, the mounting depth for the Focals is 3".

[JoshK]

I was a car audio dude long before a home audio dude.  I learned many thing from car audio, although I didn't have the vocab then but I just instinctially knew from being a mediocre musician what to listen for.  

I like Boston back then and always thought MB Quart to be overhyped.  Broken in or not, tweaked, attenuated or not.  JL audio was for subs only IMO.  Polk was crap!  Hmmm....who else was big back then?  A/D/S...too expensive but very nice in many regards while still leaving something missing.  

Then my system got ripped off for the third time in three different states and my dealer (or any nearby) didn't have bostons to replace the ones I lost so I got were called then California Audio Lab speakers (they had to change their name for obvious to audiophile reasons to something I can't remember) and these were even better than bostons.  

These were among the best speakers I had ever heard.  They had the mids and highs of that I loved about Bostons (tonal neutrality is what I had loved) but had much better mid bass.  They were a coax speak none the less and they were even better than any components I had had.  My best friend in high school was a car audio dealer and a many time champion amateur competitor (50 watt class) who got me into it so I had heard a lot.  

HTH,

[Chops]

I like Boston back then and always thought MB Quart to be overhyped.  Broken in or not, tweaked, attenuated or not.  JL audio was for subs only IMO.  Polk was crap!  Hmmm....who else was big back then?  A/D/S...too expensive but very nice in many regards while still leaving something missing.  

HTH,

Well, all I've got to say is that I'll stick with MB Quart and JL Audio. If set up properly, not just thrown in a car, they sound excellent.

If MB Quarts are so tinnie and shrilly sounding, then why are they in almost all of the winning Sound Quality competition vehicles over the past 10 years? .......Because they were installed and set up properly!

Obviously, some people here can't figure that out!  

[Andrew Lamb]

If MB Quarts are so tinnie and shrilly sounding, then why are they in almost all of the winning Sound Quality competition vehicles over the past 10 years?

Um, because they weren't.
Go re check that stat and you'll find that Focal is in more winning vehicles than anything else.

MB Quart might be up around the 2% mark. That is usually because their mids have a great sound to them. Almost everyone I know with MBQ mids is running a much different tweeter.

And relax guy, jeeez, it's like a personal issue with you... you aren't the CEO of this company are you? Just accept the fact that not everyone is going to agree with you all the time.