[cryoparts]

Thanks to Brian for hosting--very nice store that you have!  And, thanks to all who lugged speakers over, which allowed some very interesting comparisons to be made.

I had a great time.  Nice to see you all again!

Regards,

Lee

[kenk]

Any comments from the "Jam"?

Thanks,

Ken

[lonewolfny42]

Any comments from the "Jam"?

Thanks,

Ken

I'll 2nd. that...any comments ??? How was it sounding at this gathering ??? Thanks....

[Hoots]

I will share my impressions, but first a disclaimer.

I am not an experienced comparetive listener and I sometimes can be slow to identify the key deltas and appreciate the unique qualities of a speaker.

We also didn't go back and forth instead we simply listened to each speaker sequencially.

I used a demo CD with acoustic bass (STING), blues, female vocals and deep hard hitting bass (Paula Cole-"Fire"), acoustic live guitar (Eric Clapton), sax, classical and others.

We started with the FOCUS.  I was most impressed with their soundstage which seemed to be totally disconnected from the speakers--even off axis.  I found the soundstage to be tall and deep with pleasing definition.
The Focus were georgous and well built (walnut vaneer w/gloss finish).  They also were the most expensive.  

VR 1 - These were the least expensive and seemed like a drop in performance missing the soundstage I loved with the FOCUS.  

SALK HT 1 - I was eager to hear these with their ribbon tweeter although I didn't know much about them.  I felt they improved over the VR1's and wished I could compare them closer to the FOCUS which my gut still rated as favorites...the high end might be preferred on the Salks ...I would need more listening to really zero in on my impressions...they sounded impressive enough to merit further listening.  I would love to have them in my room for a day.

REF 1 - I own these so they are a familiar sound and I am a biased listener.   Prior to playing them I was concerned that they might not sound as 3d and smooth sounding as the more expensive speakers but upon listening I was impressed.  I felt they held their own against the more expensive speakers and were my preference over the VR1.  They continue to impress me with their detail and awesome piano birdseye maple finish.  I love them with SOCS which wasn't at the event.

 I was impressed with the Focus, Salk and Onix and felt I would need further listening to really zero-in on my true preferences.  I left salivating over the VR SRs but feel happy with my REF 1's--especially given their price and great looks.  I would really like to hear the tower options from the other brands who all seem to have great reviews.

-----

I thought DK VS1 at ~$1600 used was an impressive amp for those looking for more power than a 40w tube integrated and would like to hear what it could do in my room with some more lush tubes. DK says the stock tubes are more neutral and those wanting more of the lush tube sound should roll some more colorful tubes.

I also would need to consider the contribution of the Cary CD player.
-----

The brief listen I had to the VR SRs was impressive.   They played the deep Paula Cole track with amazing hard hitting, low and highly resolved bass and wonderful vocals.  I would like to certainly spend more with these floor standers.  


I look forward to more jams and getting more listening experience.  We heard some excellent gear and I would assume everyone has their own tastes and priorities.

[cryoparts]

Phil doesn't need the Focus back for a couple of weeks, so if anyone wants them please contact me and I'll arrange to meet you somewhere and hand them off.  I'll be at RMAF, or recovering after, when he needs them shipped back so whomever borrows them will need to take care of the shipping back to him.

Please let me know by this Friday if you want them, or I am going to ship them back on Monday.

Regards,

Lee

[PhilNYC]

Wow...you guys are quiet...!  

[brj]

Busy week!  I still plan to post some comments, but I just haven't had time yet.  I put in 45 hours at work in 4 days so far this week.  I'm supposed to be off today, but we'll see if that lasts...

For the record, of the 6 people that were there, I think only 5 are on AC.  Hoots posted his review and mine is in-work.  That means you just have Brian, Lee and Marvin to go prod!

As a quick teaser, however, I will say that the Focus had a much better showing this time.  It had an amazingly wide soundstage that I didn't hear at the first jam.  (I can't imagine it was the gear, however, so I'm guessing that it was the room.)

More later...

[PhilNYC]

Looking forward to your comments...

Btw - it would be great if you guys listed what music you played during the Jam (as well as any unique beers or other beverages if y'all were so-inclined...)

[brj]

This is a bit delayed, but I wanted to post some of my comments from our jam the weekend before last.  Luckily, I have a few impressions that I jotted down shortly afterward, so I'm not completely making this up!

First, some thanks are in order....

 - Thanks to Brian71 for opening up Advanced Home Theater Systems in Plano to our little party and providing the snacks, as well as the Von Schweikert VR1s.
 - Thanks to PhilNY of SonicSpirits for allowing us to keep the Focus Audio FS688 speakers from the previous jam.
 - Thanks to jsalk of Salk Signature Sound for letting us keep the HT1s from the previous jam.
 - Thanks to Hoots for bringing in his personal pair of Onix Ref 1s.
 - Thanks to marvda1 for stealing his daughter's speaker stands!

We listened to all four sets of monitors in the following progression: FS688, VR1, HT1, Ref1.  My sessions in the sweet spot used a demo disk put together by someone else, but that I've heard many times and come to enjoy.  It contains everything from a Roger Waters track to a classical guitar track to a song sung in Norwegian or a similar language - and quite a few things in between.  (And no, I didn't play the Heart track even once! )

The "grain of salt" caveats - I wasn't familiar with the (partially treated) room or the upstream gear.  I thought everything sounded quite good, but it was still an unfamiliar setup that I experienced for a single afternoon.  Like Hoots, I'm still developing my comparative listening skills.  For example, while I've heard hot tweeters and overly prominant bass plenty of times, I don't claim to be able pick out "dips or humps" in a crossover after a few minutes with great ease (but I'm still working on it).  On the plus side, I played trumpet and piano for years (and still do occasionally), so I have a very good idea of how those and other instruments should sound.  Nonetheless, I will never claim to have a "golden ear", I will never be a professional reviewer, and my comments should probably be taken for entertainment value only.  Frankly, I have a hard time forcing myself to critically listen in the first place, instead of just enjoying the music.

As for personal preferences that affect what I listen for, I usually favor classical and jazz, especially instrumental pieces.  Certainly, I listen to many other types of music - including the occasional "single female vocal" - but I enjoy the complex layering that you tend to get in classical and jazz.  As a result, soundstage, imaging, dynamics and tonality are very important to me.  I want to be able to hear the different things going on in a complex work without straining.  As a result, I probably lean more toward the "analytical" side of the audio spectrum rather than the "lush" side.

One last comment - I tend to prefer floorstanding speakers, so I haven't auditioned too many monitors to date.

Focus FS688
As I said in my earlier post, this speaker faired much better this time around to my ears.  Since the gear used last time was quite good, I can only chalk up the differences to room effects.  This time around, the FS688s had an incredibly wide soundstage that I just don't remember from last time.  It extended well outside of the speakers, with the Roger Water's track putting some sounds slightly beyond 90 degrees from center. Soundstage depth was good too, although I don't specifically remember height.  Imaging was very good, although not quite as pinpoint as I've heard with some speakers.  Bass was tight and solid down to the limits of the cabinet, and seemed well integrated with the tweeter.  I don't consider myself a "bass nut", but I would probably want a sub with this and almost all other monitor speakers.  I don't remember having any specific thoughts regarding dynamics, so I guess I should have taken notes...  The fit and finish were gorgeous!

Von Schweikert VR1
These are good speakers, and a great value, but I felt that the Onix Ref 1 was an even better speaker for similar money.

Salk HT1
I didn't spend as much time in the sweet spot with these, as I've heard them before and wanted to let others hear them instead.  I also have a pair of the HT3 floorstanders on order, so I obviously liked the very similar HT1s - and maybe I'm already biased as a result.  That said, I've decided that I really tend to prefer ribbon tweeters.  I haven't heard that many different ribbons, but so far I've liked the speed and clarity of those that I've auditioned, including the Aurum Cantus G2 in the HT1.  Cymbals and triangles have a very "right" sound to them coming from this speaker, and imaging is great.  The HT1 was definitely the bass champion of the group as well, which you would probably expect since it has the largest cabinet of the bunch.  I was impressed by the speed, impact and weight of the lower frequencies.  Lower octaves on a piano sounded really good to me.  However, some of that bass presence is due to the larger size of the HT1 - these aren't small monitors, and that might be an issue for some people.  Oddly enough, I don't recall any specific thoughts regarding soundstage, so I guess I need another audition after all...

Onix Reference 1
These were very impressive speakers at their price point.  I don't think they exceeded the more expensive speakers in any one area, but they came quite close in many, and at a fraction of the cost.  Soundstaging approached that of the Focus, which was quite surprising.  Apparently, AV123 has occasionally offered this speaker for significantly less than $1000 new, which I find rather amazing considering both the sound and the high quality fit and finish of the cabinet....


A last comment - the Von Schweikert VR4 Srs were really impressive speakers that I want to hear more of. We only had a few minutes with them at the end, but they had wonderfully tight bass and great dynamics. Of course, they also list for $8000, so I'd definitely want them to be something special!

That's (more than) enough for me.  Now we can all heckle Marvin, Lee and Brian for their thoughts!

[PhilNYC]

Great to see some comments here!

Maybe you guys could list the gear that was being used to drive the speakers?

Also, would be good to get a list of music that you played.

And...any pictures???

[brj]

Maybe you guys could list the gear that was being used to drive the speakers?

I don't know the exact models, but we used a DK Design integrated amp (Mk II?), with a Cary CD player.

Also, would be good to get a list of music that you played.

As I said, I don't know all of the tracks I played, because I didn't create my demo disk.  One song that I played through consistently and can name was Roger Waters' "Late Home Tonight, Part I".  Another track that I played through consistantly I can't identify for the life of me, despite many Google searches...

Hoots listed some of his tracks earlier in the thread.  Marvin played some tracks as well, but not on all speakers.  I don't remember what he played.

And...any pictures???

Hoots posted links to pictures back on page 2, about 4 posts up from the bottom.  He thankfully left our ugly mugs out of them and focused on the far more attractive gear!

[PhilNYC]

Thanks Brj...it's been such a long time, I forgot about the pics!  You guys should post them in-line in the thread...!

[marvda1]

Since you twist my arm, here goes.

First off thanks to Brian71 and the folks at Advanced Home Theater in Plano for the equipment, site and snacks.
Thanks to Brj. For lugging the Salks over, Lee for bring the Focus, and Hoots for the Onix Ref 1’s, and my daughter for unknowingly loaning her stands (24 in.).

When I arrived the Von Schweikert Vr-2’s were playing at a low volume being driven by the Dk vs.-1 integrated and a Cary cd player and Nordost cables.  The sound even at low levels was fantastic.  I need to get back over there to listen to the Vr-2’s and Sr’s.

Focus Fs-688 were first to be auditioned and my thoughts were that the overall balance was very smooth with great sound staging and pinpoint imaging. The only minor point of complaint was that I would prefer a little bit more bass extension.  Loved that burled walnut.


Von Schweikert Vr-1 next in line were the least expensive of the bunch and the ones that I thought maybe didn’t belong.  The highs were a little too hot for me and the presentation  was way too forward.  I was in another room and wanted to push the performer back into the room with the speakers.  I think these are the type of speakers that would grab the beginner and say take me home but after long term listening and going over to your buddies house who has the more balanced speakers would start you on the upgrade path.


Salk Ht-1  third in line had the prerequisite soundstage and great imaging and so far the best bass of the lot.  I know Brj. Has fallen in love with ribbon tweeters but to my ear there is something missing that is hard to put my finger on.  There is a slight leanness to the upper mids/lower highs that to me makes the speaker sound as if there is a hole or more to the point there is a warmth missing.  I don’t know if this implementation in the salks or how I perceive ribbons.  They are very fast and delicate sounding in the
upper region.

Hoots has a pair of Onix Reference 3’s that use a conventional dome tweeter and a ribbon as the super tweeter.  I’ll have to give them a listen and see if it’s  my taste for domes vs. ribbons  or manufacturer implementation.  Before I pass final judgment I have to listen to more speakers with ribbons.

One question, the large hybrid stats have problems integrating panels with bass drivers so what about smaller speakers using ribbon tweeters and conventional drivers?



Onix Reference One  lastly.  I reserved any comments on these as I recently took advantage of the package deal at AV123 that included the Ref. 1 and a Melody 38 watt tube integrated amp(sp-3) for $999.  The regular prices being $1200 for rosewood Ref. 1 and $999 for the Sp-3 (Ref 1’s in gloss birdseye maple and gloss black are $1500).  Sorry for the sales pitch, I’ll let the others describe these as I might come across as biased.  But there is one thing I noticed when we were listening to the Onix, there was a lot of toe tapping going on.  Like the folks that believe in p-r-a-t I guess I will come up with the toe/tap factor.
I sort of smiled to myself as I realized how I stole these speakers.

This is draining but fun, I’ll get back later with some of the demo songs I used.  I only listened to them on the Focus as I wanted  get a handle on their sound as compared to the Onix.

Marvin

[brj]

Nice comments, Marvin - go put some ice on that twisted arm!

I know Brj Has fallen in love with ribbon tweeters but to my ear there is something missing that is hard to put my finger on. There is a slight leanness to the upper mids/lower highs that to me makes the speaker sound as if there is a hole or more to the point there is a warmth missing. I don’t know if this implementation in the salks or how I perceive ribbons. They are very fast and delicate sounding in the
upper region.

I'd certainly wouldn't state my view so absolutely.  I've noticed a trend in my preferences - I haven't fallen blindly "in love" with a general technology concept.  That said, don't let my tendancy to like ribbons slow you down in any way, Marvin!  You like what you like, and that's it - which is why there are so many speaker companies out there for people to choose from.

I'll also add that my tendancy to enjoy ribbon tweeters has spanned multiple speakers and vendors.  Vendors that leap to mind are Salk, VPMS, GR Research, RAW, etc..  Obviously, these implementations vary widely, but I've enjoyed the top end on each.  Who knows, maybe I've just been lucky with the ribbon-tweeter speakers I've heard so far.  In addition, I still haven't heard some of the other well known ribbon drivers, such as LCY or Raven, much less all of the models available.  I haven't been picking speakers to audition based on this design choice - I've simply noticed the trend after the fact.

There are many, many dome tweeter speakers that I've enjoyed, and many more on my future audition list.  Some of these include the SP Tech Continuums, Zu Druids and Definitions, Daedelus DA-1s, etc.   How's that for a list of speakers that exhibit massively different design concepts?

One other general trend that I've noticed... the more revealing a tweeter, the more likely it will sound bright or harsh.  The requirement for better upstream gear and better recording quality becomes even stricter.  In addition to system and recording voicing issues, you also have speaker voicing issues.  A speaker designer chooses how to voice a given model.  Jim Salk voices the HT series speakers to have as flat a frequency response as possible.  He realizes, however, that people may want more or less high end response, and thus offers a tweeter attenuation switch as an option.  I've known other speaker manufacturers to do the same thing.

So many options, so few dollars...

One question, the large hybrid stats have problems integrating panels with bass drivers so what about smaller speakers using ribbon tweeters and conventional drivers?

I don't think this is an issue, but my following explanation is based primarily on reading rather than first hand experience.  More research might be warranted.

The historical issues with electrostat panels integrating poorly with cone woofers had much to do with the panel size needed to extend low enough in the frequency spectrum to integrate at all.  To get low frequencies out of a panel, it has to be quite large.  To match the high SPLs possible with a cone woofer, the panel usually had to withstand large, fast excursions.  From what I've read and heard, these two features are hard to implement well in a manner that provides sufficent panel life.  You would have the same difficulties with really long ribbons.

The ribbon used in most ribbon tweeters are quite short and don't have massive excursions (to my knowledge).  They are operating in the frequency range where the concept naturally works very well.  The challenge for a speaker using ribbon tweetes is to find drivers for the mid-range and woofer that can keep up with a ribbon's speed.  Basically, you've moved the design challenge to a different portion of the speaker.  This is where you start to see the vendors I named above start to diverge in their philosophy.

[marvda1]

Brj Wrote:

"One other general trend that I've noticed... the more revealing a tweeter, the more likely it will sound bright or harsh. The requirement for better upstream gear and better recording quality becomes even stricter."

This brings up another question?  The more revealing a tweeter brings out the brightness or harshness of the source/upstream equipment or is it inherent in the tweeter to be bright or harsh?

marvin

[Hoots]

Here are some of the tracks from the AV123 sample cd:

Sting - live "Don't stand so close to me"  (acoustic bass)
Paula Cole - "Tiger"  (female vocals with a hard deep bass line)
Eric Clapton - ... in Heaven (live acoustic guitar & male vocals)
some sax solo
Instrumental from Carmen (violins)
 
The electronics were DK VS1 (150w ss integrated with tube line stage)
Cary CD player

Pics:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=66 ...

I would like to hear the VR SRs some more!

I also want to try a tube pre with my REF 3's.

[brj]

One other general trend that I've noticed... the more revealing a tweeter, the more likely it will sound bright or harsh. The requirement for better upstream gear and better recording quality becomes even stricter.

This brings up another question?  The more revealing a tweeter brings out the brightness or harshness of the source/upstream equipment or is it inherent in the tweeter to be bright or harsh?

Yes!

I think your question pertains to all drivers, not just tweeters.  I have no doubt that there are drivers that are inherently harsh, but there are many other drivers that are not harsh themselves, but are simply accurate enough and detailed enough that they reveal any harshness in the recording or elsewhere else in the system.  Determining which of the two situations pertains to any given system may not be straightforward.  If that wasn't enough to cause a headache, you also have room effects to contend with, not to mention the quality of a person's hearing.  If you are talking about the treble end of the frequency spectrum, what may be sound harsh to a 20 year old may not sound harsh to a 50 year old.

Every speaker is going to be some designer determined balance of detail, imaging, soundstage, dynamics, PRAT and innumerable other acoustic characteristics.  It is up to the consumer to choose the balance they prefer, with the difficult part involving how you match the designer determined characteristics of each component into a single system.  Many very enjoyable albums may not be recorded well, and if you couple that with a different set of personal system preferences, you may choose to have your system stop short of attempting to resolve that last bit of detail.  To each their own, and more power to them!