[DeanSheen]

Whats the latest on non- mass market digital amps?   Please post any good links to manufacturers or discussions.

Last time I looked it appeared that 2.5k was the common price point and I'm still waiting for that figure to drop.  None of the more recent threads in this forum seem to deal with these type amps.

Thanks

DS

[Feisal K]

non-mass market..

CIAudio
H20Audio
nuForce (there's a thread in manufacturer's section here on AC, I think
Jeff Rowland (ICEPower)
Acoustic Reality (ICEPower)
TacT (Equibit)
PSAudio
Halcro
Sonneteer (Tripath)
Flying Mole

Rotel (are they considered mass market?) just released a 100W x7 ICEpower amp.

[Tim S]

To add to that last post, I think you will find a lot below the $2.5k mark. I just picked up a pair of the CIAudio D100's and they are priced at $1600 a pair (so are the Nuforce amps). I believe there are several Icepower ones in that range too. You should be able to find a lot of threads about these amps if you look around.

Tim

[JLM]

Don't forget the mods from Red Wine Audio (see their circle below).

They specialize in battery powered digital amps with offerings of 6 and 30 wpc.  Vinnie (owner/sole employee) is fast, friendly, helpful, and offers many different kinds of modifications.  Clean power is critical to doing digital right, and nothing beats batteries for that.  The high efficiency of digital circuits makes real world battery power a viable option.  Batteries also provide lots of reserve power.  

The Clari-T is a 6 wpc modded/battery integrated amp version of the Sonic Impact and starts at $500.  It weights 3 pounds and fits in the hand.  The background with my Clari-T (and battery powered DAC) is total blackness.  With 89 dB/w/m single driver speakers my Clari-T does much better than it has a right to and makes SETs sound anemic.  The Clari-T has amazing bass grip/extension, is highly dynamic, and duh, has great resolution (clarity).  It has bested three SETs, two push pull tube amps, a cheap digital receiver, a chip amp, and an older Rotel in every regard except imaging versus tubes and real world output from the 25 wpc and bigger amps.  

The Red Wine Audio modded Teac TL700P is a battery powered 30 wpc power amp and starts at $550.  The Teac in comparision is a monster amp next to the Clari-T.  Bass output is incredible, and again these watts are huge up against solid or hollow state amps.  As above the bass grip, dynamics, and resolution are all there.  I can't see trading battery purity for additional wattage with my 89 dB/w/m speakers in a 2,000 cu. ft. room.

[Tubo]

I want to echo JLM's post and answer the original question: "digital" (i.e. pulse width modulation) amps provide audiophile sound at dirt cheap prices. I own a Red Wine Teac ($550), and it has replaced my tube amp in my main system. I also have an unmodded (other than a walwart) Sonic Impact ($30) and it powers my television speakers.

[DS-21]

Given that the "mass market" ones are so good - I'm listening to my new Panny XR55 right now, which replaced over $3000 (when new) of Marantz and Adcom separates without skipping a beat - why worry about the expensive ones unless you're running extremely low impedance speakers?

[JLM]

DS-21,

One of the alternatives I auditioned extensively at home last fall was a 100 wpc JVC digital receiver.  Build quality was very low.  As advertized it bloomed around the 300 hour mark and offered the bass control of solid state and the midrange warmth of tubes.  Content value low, but sound quality per dollar was high.

But even with 89 dB/w/m speakers my puny 6 wpc Clari-T is in another league entirely.  Much more dynamics, bass punch, and resolution with build quality miles ahead and modding options available.

The Red Wine Audio modded Teac would easily out muscle the JVC.

As I understand the Panny and JVC are comparable (same league).

[DS-21]

DS-21,

One of the alternatives I auditioned extensively at home last fall was a 100 wpc JVC digital receiver.  Build quality was very low.  <snip>
As I understand the Panny and JVC are comparable (same league)

I would disagree with that. I had a current generation of each in my system, and the Panny looks/feels like a higher quality piece, and runs considerably cooler. I liked the JVC's ergonomics better, but I was afraid that it would not survive a year of use because it got so hot. It literally melted a DVD case left on top of it for an hour....

I'll grant you, they're both somewhat tacky mass market products by appearance. Neither one is a McIntosh or Meridian piece, and it doesn't FEEL like it. I can certainly understand why someone would prefer something that looks nicer, has superior ergonomics, or better tactile feeling. However, a "high end" digital amp will not provide better SOUND over one of the cheapies, no matter what the Stockholm Syndromed mod brigade wants people to think. (Unless the mod is one with obvious, MEASURABLE effects, e.g. changing caps on the Sonic Impact deal to extend the bass response.)

Likewise, a cheap digital amp WILL NOT provide better sound than a typical high-quality tube or transistor amp with flat FR, low distortion, and equal ability to drive the loads required. What it will do, IME, is provide the SAME capability at a vastly lower cost. Given that I've proven to my satisfaction via double-blind subjective listening tests that I can't tell an Adcom from a Classe from a Krell on well set up speakers with high resolving power (Martin-Logan reQuests), the XR55 is right up in that league as long as the other end of the speaker wire connects to a relatively benign impedance load.

Personally, I'm absolutely delighted that I'm doing all of my processing and driving every speaker but my subwoofer off of a component that costs less than I generally pay for a shirt (or a single one of the dual concentric drive units used in my DIY mains) yet sounds as good as or better than anything out there. How it looks is secondary to me, as I don't have to look at it and I'm using a universal remote.

[miklorsmith]

Yeah, double-blind tests have shown all kinds of things to be inaudible which I find easily audible, though never through a double-blind test.

I've got a DAC right now that I'm spending time with.  I'm comparing it to my other CDP.  I recently listened to the CDP on the first half of the CD, then the DAC for the second half.  The DAC sounded much more natural, though I was just listening for fun and not concentrating.

Then, with the same CD, I sat down and played one track from the same CD several times, concentrating intently.  I tried a heavily modded Modwright CDP, a 15-year-old Technics player, and the DAC (Red Wine Audio Monica-2).  The differences became much more difficult to discern.

What does this mean?  I'll not draw conclusions, but I have grave doubts about testing.  The idea of it is great, but whether it's stress on the listener, short aural memory, or some other phenomenon, the end result collides directly with my direct experience.

I don't want to get into a pros/cons of testing, but it seems like once a test is done, the air is presumed cleared.  And, if the position is that amps all sound the same, I'd opine it far from clear.  Of course, I also have a Clari-T amp and find it to be excellent.  This must make me biased.

[DeanSheen]

Thaks for all the suggestions.  Value is a very good thing, I simply remain sceptical about the mass market amps.  I have a Panny at home and am  not thrilled with it and it's going to my dads. Also, no offense to the mod guys, but I dont want to put X amount of dollars into these cheap units nor do I have the ability to do it myself.

Last time I looked the amps on my list were:

H20
Bel Canto Evo
Acoustic Reality
PS Audio

After looking around a bit if I were buying today it would have to be the NuForce.  I like the form, the reviews are great, and I am in love with the high damping factor aspect of digitals.  

I appreciate the updates.

Best

DS

[JLM]

Professional reviews are a "necessary evil" IME.  One of the things they provide me is an idea of how stable a piece of equipment is.  What I mean by "stable" is a product that is not rushed into production, with loose connections, bad tubes, or still in beta testing.  Incredibly the manufacturer usually knows that the product is going to a reviewer.  Some continually improvements is apt to happen with new technologies.  NuForce, CIAudio, and Flying Mole have all been caught in this instability to varying degrees with reviewers.

I'm continually amazed that big box products seem to hold up to reviewers better than much of the esoteric stuff we find at AC.  Does the size of the shop or our expectations have anything to do with it?


DS-21,

Glad you like the Panny.  I can believe it holds up to Krell, etc., but you still might be surprised compared to better digital.  Personally I prefer the understated/simple look and function of my gear to keep the signal/etc. is pure as possible and let form follow function.

[GrahamnDodder]

This should help:



Tripath Blasts the Audio Industry With Advancement in Integration, Performance and Cost
Tuesday September 6, 3:00 am ET

Architecture Breakthrough Sets a New Standard in Performance and Cost of Digital Amplifiers

SAN JOSE, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept. 6, 2005--Tripath Technology Inc. (Nasdaq:TRPH - News), creators of Class-T ® digital audio amplifiers and Digital Power Processing (DPP®), today announced the availability of a new architecture platform for digital amplifiers which is expected to extend Tripath's leadership position in the digital amplifier market, keeping Tripath ahead of its competition.

Code-named Trivici, this architecture is the culmination of more than five years of multi-disciplinary research and development effort aimed at bringing previously unachievable levels of integration to power amplifiers.

Modern audio amplifiers can be broken into four distinct blocks: a digital processor, a mixed signal processor, a power driver and an output power stage. The first is the digital processor that interprets incoming digital information from a source such as a CD or MP3 decoder. The information is then fed to the second block, the mixed signal processor. This block converts the signal into an analog signal and conditions it for amplification. The third block, called a power driver, further conditions the signal for power amplification. The final block, called the output stage, provides the power amplification necessary to drive a speaker with the signal.

For many years integrating these blocks into a single chip has been described as the "holy grail" for companies that produce power ICs. Prior to our architecture breakthrough, there were two significant impediments to its realization. The first is the underlying manufacturing IC processes used to realize each of the above mentioned blocks were fundamentally different. Second, the technical difficulties caused by electrical noise inherent in the power section interacting with the precision circuitry in the analog block. Until now, this integration appeared to be impossible.

Tripath's patented Class-T architecture is uniquely designed to be less susceptible to noise. Furthermore, the use of sophisticated design and process technology techniques in the power stage allow for an integration of the power with the mixed signal processor. The process technology used is more widely available than those which are used in Tripath's current products. This is expected to yield economies of scale that translate into lower manufacturing costs in the future.

"We pioneered the use of digital amplifiers in the consumer audio market place about ten years ago," said Dr. Adya S. Tripathi, Chairman, President and CEO of Tripath. He added, "We have since continued to invest in research and development efforts to advance our technology. The Trivici breakthrough is evidence of our commitment to continued innovation. Ultimately the consumer will benefit from this innovation by getting superior quality audio performance at more affordable price points."

Tripath expects to introduce products based on this platform during the March quarter of 2006. The first device in the Trivici based family is aimed at the burgeoning flat panel display market. This market has historically valued Class-T amplifier performance. The technology will allow flat panel display manufacturers to continue their adoption and deployment of Class-T based amplifiers across their product offerings, while addressing their need for lower cost devices.

In addition, Tripath expects to launch a full line of products covering power levels ranging from less than 10W up to 50W or more. These products are expected to start sampling in the first half of calendar 2006 and are targeted to meet the requirements of a broad range of applications in consumer electronics in addition to flat panel display televisions, such as home theatres, mini systems and docking stations, portable electronics and communications applications. Tripath intends to extend the innovative Trivici platform to be an enabler for many new opportunities over a wide range of products such as industrial automation, computing and communication applications. Trivici is expected to open completely new markets for the application of Class-T technology.

About Tripath Technology

Based in San Jose, Calif., Tripath Technology Inc. is a fabless semiconductor company that focuses on providing highly efficient power amplification to the digital media consumer electronics and communications markets. Tripath owns the patented technology called Digital Power Processing (DPP®), which leverages modern advances in digital signal processing and power processing. Tripath markets audio amplifiers with DPP® under the brand name Class-T®. Tripath's current customers include, but are not limited to, companies such as Alcatel, Alpine, Hitachi, JVC, Sanyo, Sharp, Sony and Toshiba. For more information on Tripath please visit Tripath's web site at www.tripath.com.

Safe Harbor Statement

Certain statements in this release concerning Tripath's leadership position in the digital amplifier market, the prospective benefits of the Trivici architecture, when and if Tripath will launch new products and the benefits there from contain forward-looking statements that involve a number of risks and uncertainties. Actual results could differ materially. The risks and uncertainties include many factors, such as silicon wafer pricing and the availability of foundry and assembly capacity and raw materials, availability and pricing of competing products and technologies that would affect sales and pricing of our products. We may experience fluctuations in the manufacturing yields of our third-party semiconductor foundries and other problems or delays in the fabrication, assembly, testing or delivery of our products. We may not be able to specify, develop or acquire, complete, introduce, market and transition to volume production new products and technologies in a timely manner. Further information regarding these and other risks and uncertainties is included in the Company's United States Securities and Exchange Commission filings, particularly our Quarterly Report on Form 10-Q for the quarter ended June 30, 2005 filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission on August 9, 2005.

Contact:
     Tripath Technology Inc.
     Jeffrey L. Garon, 408-750-6801




Source: Tripath Technology Inc.

[DeanSheen]

Thanks for all your help guys.  This is the list I have.  I am getting a pair of Nuforce 8's in next week to demo.  Has anyone heard the Red Dragon Audio units?  


Acoustic Reality Ear 501 monos: $1700  300w
Red Dragon stereo: $1800 600w
Nuforce monos: $1600(100w) $2400(345w)

Best

DS

[JohnR]

This should help:

Tripath Blasts the Audio Industry With Advancement in Integration, Performance and Cost

Could you please edit your post to replace the large amount of copied text with a link, as per the http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/faq.php#8">Posting Guidelines.

Thanks

[art]

Gee, how did we get left off of the list? Maybe I should get that guy from Audiogon who does such a good job shilling for H2O to help out. [joke]

The least expensive model that we make is $500 mono. Most expensive is $2800 stereo.

Pat

[DeanSheen]

Gee, how did we get left off of the list? Maybe I should get that guy from Audiogon who does such a good job shilling for H2O to help out. [joke]

The least expensive model that we make is $500 mono. Most expensive is $2800 stereo.

Pat

Heh, yeah.  I have been researching for the past several days and last night I Google H20, every stinking result nearly is M*man guys name.  I ended up looking for results without his name to read.

Talked to you guys last night via. email.  Would really like to hear that amp.  How about getting an auditon set or two in circulation?  Would love to have a Red Dragon next to the NuForces.........but I guess I'll read about it after the RMA fest.

Best

~DS

[DeanSheen]

Gee, how did we get left off of the list? Maybe I should get that guy from Audiogon who does such a good job shilling for H2O to help out. [joke]

The least expensive model that we make is $500 mono. Most expensive is $2800 stereo.

Pat

Heh, yeah.  I have been researching for the past several days and last night I Google H20, every stinking result nearly is M*man guys name.  I ended up looking for results without his name to read.

Talked to you guys last night via. email.  Would really like to hear that amp.  How about getting an auditon set or two in circulation?  Would love to have a Red Dragon next to the NuForces.........but I guess I'll read about it after the RMA fest.

Best

~DS