Well the NuFORCE RM30 system has just been fired up

John Casler · « **on:** 30 Aug 2005, 10:47 pm »

Recieved the NuForce Ref 8b amps yesterday and got the opportunity to fire them up a short time ago.

VERY IMPRESSIVE!!

Dynamic and leading edge transients literally some of the best I have heard, and this coming from a 3 pound package is rather incredible.

I haven't compared it directly to the Son of Ampzilla yet, but even it it is 90-95% of the Son, it is a bargain.

Quick and Dirty impressions are that the Son sounds more tube like/smoother, but this is not from direct comparison.

On my favorite Ref cut, Hugh Masekela's "Stimela", they do an admirable job of resolving the complex dynamics of all the percusion parts as the Dynamics get extremely loud and sharp.

No "crowding" or "mushing". Only clear, crisp, and dry detail and impact.

Low and mid bass, may equal or even slightly outdo the Son, but more comparison at equal SPLs is needed to see.

In any event, at this early juncture they sound very good.

I would suggest one thing though and that is be prepared to buy or make, a power cord for each, since the stock cord is on the light side.

But I can definately see that this amp has potential.

More later

Kevin P · « **Reply #1 on:** 31 Aug 2005, 12:20 am »

John,

I'd be happy to send you a Hypex based 2-channel that we build for comparison.

A lot of people ask me how they compare with the NuForce. Since you don't have an interest in either company you would be a good person to do a comparison.

Would you be interested?

John Casler · « **Reply #2 on:** 31 Aug 2005, 12:36 am »

Quote from: Kevin P

John,

I'd be happy to send you a Hypex based 2-channel that we build for comparison.

A lot of people ask me how they compare with the NuForce. Since you don't have an interest in either company you would be a good person to do a comparison.

Would you be interested?

Hi Kevin,

While I'd be happy to do a "local" comparison for those in LA who might be interested, I have to mention that I am a NuFORCE dealer, but then I'm also a Bryston, Krell, Ampzilla, and CineNova Dealer.

What I mean by a "local" comparison, is that I would invite any locals interested in coming by for a "comparison meeting".

I have to warn you, I am currently running a TriNaural (three amp and speaker) set up.

ScottMayo · « **Reply #3 on:** 31 Aug 2005, 01:09 am »

Quote from: John Casler

I would suggest one thing though and that is be prepared to buy or make, a power cord for each, since the stock cord is on the light side.

I'm willing to bet they can get away with that, without without any compromise of sound. It's a digital amp, probably upwards of 85% efficient. Unlike class A amps, that dissipate more in heat than they provide in usable wattage... when you are being efficient you don't need to suck every ampere out of the power line, so you can make do with much thinner wire.

In general, a high end manufacturer is not going to *underspec* something like a power cord. If it affects the sound, they'd cheerfully spend the extra $.15 for the next size up; and anyway if it's too small it might get warm when used, which is NOT the sort of reputation the manufacturer wants to have. It wouldn't be sensible to shave pennies on a power cord: and if you think the amp designer was prone to lacking sense, you don't want to buy anything he makes. Not given what we spend on amps and they stuff they drive.

jimmyp58 · « **Reply #4 on:** 31 Aug 2005, 03:35 am »

Not to be picky Scott but I do not believe the NuForce amps are digital.

ScottMayo · « **Reply #5 on:** 31 Aug 2005, 04:03 am »

Quote from: jimmyp58

Not to be picky Scott but I do not believe the NuForce amps are digital.

I think they are. What they aren't is class D. They still work on the principle that something is either fully or fully off (that's how switching power supplies work, and that's what these amps are); they just have a different way of getting there.

At least, that's what I gather from http://www.stereotimes.com/amp071505.shtm and some things I've read elsewhere. I think nuforce is avoiding leaning on the world digital because everyone's been disappointed by class D amps in the treble clef, and they don't want to get tarred by that brush.

John Casler · « **Reply #6 on:** 31 Aug 2005, 04:54 am »

NuForce already offers a PC upgrade, but I haven't seen, heard or tried it.

for info look here:

http://www.nuforce.com/products.htm

John Casler · « **Reply #7 on:** 31 Aug 2005, 04:58 am »

Got a chance to listen to the system a bit more after it was on for about 4-5 hours, so all was wrmed up.

I have to say, even at low volume, there was a nice sweetness to the sound.

I also ran "my" noise check, which simply involves having the system on the CD/DAC input with no music and cranking the volume to 100% full, while listening to all the drivers.

No hum, no hiss, no noise was present.

My kind of amp.

trekker · « **Reply #8 on:** 31 Aug 2005, 05:13 am »

I like your noise test

Looking forward to seeing how well the amp performs after you have more time on them.

Arnold

rustydoglim · « **Reply #9 on:** 31 Aug 2005, 08:34 am »

Please check out October issue of AVGuide. It has an article about NuForce and various switching amplifier's technology. We did our best to be neutral and present facts

http://www.avguide.com/index.jsp

With regards to power cord on Ref 8/8b, here's what we have to admit:
1. The power cord that we included with Ref 8/8b is a generic computer type power cord. We couldn't find a good power cord that is within our cost constrain.
2. We EXPECT audiophiles to replace it with their own favorite power cord so why bother to include a half decent power cord?

BUT this has all changed recently when we found a shielded power cord for Ref 9 that is pretty good. Obviously the "free" Ref 9 power cord is not in the same league as Stealth or other very well made fully shielded power cords. At Ref 8's bargain basement price (relative to its performance), we can't include this power cord. But we're still debating about this decision

ctviggen · « **Reply #10 on:** 31 Aug 2005, 11:02 am »

Actually, my Jeff Rowland #10, which retailed for $7,500, came with a pretty darn generic power cord. I've since tried two different power cords on it (with no difference that I could tell).

Kevin P · « **Reply #11 on:** 31 Aug 2005, 02:55 pm »

Quote from: John Casler

Hi Kevin,

While I'd be happy to do a "local" comparison for those in LA who might be interested, I have to mention that I am a NuFORCE dealer, but then I'm also a Bryston, Krell, Ampzilla, and CineNova Dealer.

What I mean by a "local" comparison, is that I would invite any locals interested in coming by for a "comparison meeting".

I have to warn you, I am currently running a TriNaural (three amp and speaker) set up.

Oh... I should have looked further before making the offer.

I apologize and I wouldn't want to cause any trouble with a vendor for you.

ScottMayo · « **Reply #12 on:** 31 Aug 2005, 03:14 pm »

Quote from: nuforce-jason

With regards to power cord on Ref 8/8b, here's what we have to admit:
1. The power cord that we included with Ref 8/8b is a generic computer type power cord. We couldn't find a good power cord that is within our cost constrain.

Um. Your amp is 80% efficient. Unless I miss my guess, it doesn't put out more than 400W into 4 ohms, or, say, 40V at 10A. Probably less. So it's probably drawing well under 5A from a 120V source? That's a glorously low number. It ought to perform perfectly well with lengths of coat hanger wire as a power cord.

Do you have evidence that more expensive power cords improve the sound? That would be an fascinating (and maybe worrisome) finding. I could maybe believe it for someone's class A, 1000w, I-only-dream-of-40%-efficiency, give-me-three-phase-power-or-give-me-clipping, mega-waffle-toaster-amp, but if *any* amp should be immune to power-cord-itis, yours should be. Can you explain why it isn't?

rustydoglim · « **Reply #13 on:** 31 Aug 2005, 09:13 pm »

It not the size of the power cord wire but the shielding from noise.
Our audiophile guy and many other people can tell the different (even in a blind test) but so far we can only attribute that to shielding. We have not done any scientific and quantitative stufy

. That's not our area of expertise and no time to look into it.

Jon L · « **Reply #14 on:** 31 Aug 2005, 10:18 pm »

Quote from: Kevin P

Quote from: John Casler
Hi Kevin,

While I'd be happy to do a "local" comparison for those in LA who might be interested, I have to mention that I am a NuFORCE dealer, but then I'm also a Bryston, Krell, Ampzilla, and CineNova Dealer.

What I mean by a "local" comparison, is that I would invite any locals interested in coming by for a "comparison meeting".

I have to warn you, I am currently running a TriNaural (three amp and speaker) set up.

Oh... I should have looked further before ...

Hey, Kevin, I don't think either John or NuForce would mind a little friendly comparison/competition. There's plenty of us here in So Cal who are eager to listen to NuForce and Hypex, so why don't you send the amp anyway? I really doubt John being a NuForce dealer will be a problem; besides, there will be plenty of us unbiased audiophiles to give our opinion.

John Casler · « **Reply #15 on:** 31 Aug 2005, 11:16 pm »

Quote from: Jon L

Hey, Kevin, I don't think either John or NuForce would mind a little friendly comparison/competition. There's plenty of us here in So Cal who are eager to listen to NuForce and Hypex, so why don't you send the amp anyway? I really doubt John being a NuForce dealer will be a problem; besides, there will be plenty of us unbiased audiophiles to give our opinion.

Hi Kevin,

Jon is correct, and I would doubt that any amp would be better in "all" categories than all others, so it might be fun to try and do a comparo, looking for specific qualities and traits, such as dynamics, resolution and detail, soundstage and imaging, and bass, on a predetermined group of reference cuts.

As I mentioned my current "Darling AMP" is the Son of AMPzilla, but it is not affordable to many and the if your, or Jason's amp equals or bests it in some (or all) categories, its good to have options.

And as long as everyone involved realizes that these comparisons are only valid for a specific set of components in a specific system/room, it is fun to do.

John Casler · « **Reply #16 on:** 1 Sep 2005, 12:39 am »

Quote from: nuforce-jason

Please check out October issue of AVGuide. It has an article about NuForce and various switching amplifier's technology. We did our best to be neutral and present facts
http://www.avguide.com/index.jsp

...

Hi Jason,

I have a question about the amps in general.

I prefer to leave all my equipment powered up, and do not power up and down, for every listening session.

Do you see any problem with allowing the NuFORCE to sit at idle powered up 24/7?

rustydoglim · « **Reply #17 on:** 1 Sep 2005, 03:00 am »

No, it consumes 6W at idling so it is ok to leave it on all the time.

nuforce-casey · « **Reply #18 on:** 1 Sep 2005, 04:57 am »

Quote from: nuforce-jason

No, it consumes 6W at idling so it is ok to leave it on all the time.

Most electronics sound better when left on all the time, however, NuForce amp, after broken in, will settle into the 'good sounding' situation within 30 minutes, so it's not going to gain or loose much by leaving it on or turning it off. My hypothesis is that there are no huge capacitors that can take hours to charge up and stabilize with traditional linear supply.

drtweak · « **Reply #19 on:** 14 Sep 2005, 03:30 am »

Hi Guys,

I haven't been here in a while, but with the apparent interest in the NuForce amps I though I would offer some comments on my impressions of the Reference 9s vs the Ref 8s on the RM30s.

My first thought when I installed the Reference 9s was that they sounded a little smoother and more relaxed than the Reference 8s. The production version of the Reference 9s had much better controlled bass than the Reference 9 prototypes and deeper, more punchy bass than the Reference 8s. Plus, the Reference 9s appeared to be able to play the RM30s comfortably at a higher average level than the Reference 8s.

Like the Ref 8s the Ref 9s are very musically satisfying amps. The particular pair of Reference 8s that I had internally wired with QED wire sounded a little more crisp and incisive/focused than the stock production Reference 9s, but the smoothness and relaxed nature of the Ref 9s had its own charms.

I found the Stealth AC cords to work very well with the Ref 9s, used in combination with SignalCable's Silver Resolution interconnects and speaker cables. Substituting SignalCables Silver Resolution AC cords for the stealth cords provided drop-dead gorgeous, layered vocals and clear extended highs. The bass may have been a little more defined with the Stealth cords, but I thought the midrange and highs sounded a bit more natural with the SignalCable SR cords.

One thing is clear, taking the time to optimize your cables for these amps can pay off big time. My experience has been that cable choices are even more ciritcal with digitally based amps than they are for their analog counterparts.

I'd enjoy hearing other's comments on their experience with NuForce amps compared to other amplifiers if anyone has made some comparisons.

In closing, I'd just like to ask, "John, Brian, when can I get the amazing new VMPS speaker upgrade???"

Best regards,
Frank A.