Speaker Burn In

ScottMayo · « **Reply #20 on:** 26 Aug 2005, 03:32 pm »

Quote from: Dan Driscoll

I believe it takes much longer than 10 minutes to physically break in a driver, particularly larger bass and sub-woofer drivers....

I'm not so sure. Folk have already done measurements and declared that drivers change in the first few seconds and then get stable. I also stick to my belief about crossovers; once the solder hardens, what it is is what it is. I've messed with too many circuits to believe otherwise.

But I do wonder a little about speakers as a whole. Cabinets are generally made of materials that can change under time and vibration. Wood joints are not eternal things. Glue and screws and pegs deform. Damping material settles. Could that be what break in is?

My current speaker enclosures are more or less carved out of a block of MDF, with fewer joins than is typical. It's 350# of very solid structure, and probably wouldn't loosen up in anything short of a nuclear exchange. Maybe this is why the sound the same out of the create as they do today.

But if break-in is a loosening of parts, then what we are saying is that a speaker that is a little less accurate, that's been shaken down and has a little more free resonance in it, sounds better. I could believe that - lots of people like a warmer sound and there is a huge audience of people who swear by tubes because they love the coloration. Maybe it applies to speakers as well.

It would be fascinating to find out of break-in believers are by and large tube fans.

ScottMayo · « **Reply #21 on:** 26 Aug 2005, 04:03 pm »

Quote from: Marbles

Scott, many cable companies do put their cables on a "cooker" prior to sending them out, because they can tell the difference before and after they are cooked.

Well, um.... either that or they know that it makes absolutely not one technical difference in the world, but it makes great ad copy.

Sorry, I don't buy this line for wire at all. I don't believe in cryo treatments, or hitting wires with hammers, or charged dielectrics, or skin effects at 15kHz, or zapping wires with voltage to change them.

I'll believe in *all* these things if someone can show me that it changes the resistance, inductance or capacitance of wire. But - oddly - the manufacturers uniformly refuse to publish those numbers. Of course, some manufacturers do dope wires to change the physical properties. The result is colored sound, and some people love that. At least that isn't pseudoscience.

I've been an engineer for almost 30 years. I've also worked in start-up companies and seen up close how marketing people work. A company that has measureable data that proves their claims will always, always publish. They have everything to win if they do. A company without measureable data... hires a big marketing staff. And makes claims that amount to "we believe in fairies and magic."

As I've said before, the audio business needs that. If people didn't drop $10+/ft on speaker wire, there wouldn't be enough profit in this business to attract the engineers and music lovers who really do create the stuff that works. But that doesn't mean we should be gullible about it. There are reasons to wave a dead chicken over a sick person that have nothing to do with the illness, and witch doctors have known it for centuries. And made their living thereby.

Marbles · « **Reply #22 on:** 26 Aug 2005, 04:10 pm »

Scott,

I have a LOT of respect for you, although we disagree on a few things.

Your stance on not believing it works in the above post is different then your statement that if it worked they would do it. I just simply pointed out that many companies do it.

Carlman · « **Reply #23 on:** 26 Aug 2005, 11:35 pm »

I've been reading this thread, trying to find some conclusive facts, as in, "I have a pair of speakers.... and the sound changed this much after X amount of time... " Or, "I built 2 pairs of identical speakers and here's the measurements of the one I burned in vs. the one I didn't"

Going and finding someone else's study and then picking it apart here seems futile. Even worse is I see people saying what 'should be' and what they've read or heard... Where's the "I DID this and here's what I found" comments?

I'm tired of reading what should or shouldn't be... why not post what you've done, and what you've heard.

Burn-in, cables, etc... don't have to be a religious thing... either you've experimented or you haven't. But I'm tired of hearing the preaching about what should or shouldn't be. Share the results of your testing and let me make up my own mind!

-C

tex-amp · « **Reply #24 on:** 27 Aug 2005, 04:39 pm »

Could it be different for different speakers or driver materials? I've had one designer tell me that within 5 hours any break-in is done. Another insisted that I get 50 hours playing time in before even listening to the speaker.

Steve · « **Reply #25 on:** 27 Aug 2005, 06:43 pm »

"I don't get everything the first time either, practically no one does. So the so called burn in process is really more of the brain absorbing things it didn't the first time around or even the second or third etc etc, around. In reality this is a good thing becasue this allows to revisit some of our favorite music again and again to reabsorb it or find something new."

So you are saying the sound is always different when listening to the same piece over and over, as one is refreshing ones memory and absorbing more info each time the same song is played?

warnerwh · « **Reply #26 on:** 27 Aug 2005, 08:02 pm »

I keep reading about brain activity which makes everything many think they hear void. Would someone explain the brain activity which is being reported on here. I just would like to see measurements of the bioelectrical mechanisms from the start of listening to a speaker to after the speaker in question is what some called burned in. Any charts or graphs would make it easier for me to understand. Thanks

sts9fan · « **Reply #27 on:** 27 Aug 2005, 08:24 pm »

well unfortuatly the brain is the least understood organ in the body. I did see once on scenticfic american a researcher preforming memory experiments where he clearly showed more brain activity in memory areas the first time someone saw a picture then the next few. This allows more detail to be stored the next times. I almost always have this occur when I listen to albums. I will pick up the small details only after a few listens. i find myself absobing the bass line or main guitar riff the first time.

just my .02

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #28 on:** 28 Aug 2005, 12:56 am »

"So you are saying the sound is always different when listening to the same piece over and over, as one is refreshing ones memory and absorbing more info each time the same song is played?"
No the the music is the same and so is the "sound" so to speak. What I find is that I will absorb the obvious stuff first and the more subtle stuff later, and I woudn't be at all surprised if most folks did the same.
d.b.

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #29 on:** 28 Aug 2005, 12:59 am »

"I just would like to see measurements of the bioelectrical mechanisms from the start of listening to a speaker to after the speaker in question is what some called burned in. Any charts or graphs would make it easier for me to understand. Thanks"
Great; Wire yourself up to few machines that you can borrow from your local hospital and let us know what happens; on second thought.............

d.b.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #30 on:** 28 Aug 2005, 01:17 am »

Charts and graphs....hmmm...think I have one....

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bunky · « **Reply #31 on:** 28 Aug 2005, 11:32 am »

i ordered a pair of Epiphony mini monitors from Klaus last week and i got them and hooked them up friday afternoon .these little speakers have a Tang Band 5.25" doped paper midwoofer and a Seas 3/4 "soft dome tweeter and out of the box they sounded like they were somewhat constricted i was not suprised nor alarmed by this because they were new and not broken in yet.i try to use bass heavy recordings to somewhat speed along this process by increasing the driver motion. after twenty hours they have opened up quite a bit. this being confirmed by myself and my ten year old daughter. this is not unusual this is just part of my ritual of breaking in loudspeakers. i have a pair of paradigm studio 100v3s that took a solid 400 +hours for the 3 woofers on each speaker to fully open up.this was not my mind playing tricks on me it was actually tangable as there was greatly increased vibration and motion in the wood floor that the spikes attached to the speakers were coupled to. studies can be manipulated to reflect whatever you want them to and they dont carry much weight with me......thanks William C Waldecker III

sts9fan · « **Reply #32 on:** 28 Aug 2005, 06:48 pm »

So why would you think a speaker with more drivers would take longer to break in? That does not make any sence. I have studio 60v3s and I noticed no change over time. They sound great out of the box.

ScottMayo · « **Reply #33 on:** 28 Aug 2005, 07:25 pm »

Quote from: bunky

i have a pair of paradigm studio 100v3s that took a solid 400 +hours for the 3 woofers on each speaker to fully open up.this was not my mind playing tricks on me it was actually tangable as there was greatly increased vibration and motion in the wood floor that the spikes attached to the speakers were coupled to. ...

After 400 hours of 3 woofers working away through spikes, are you sure what got broken in wasn't your floor? I bet the nails into the subfloor aren't holding quite as tight as they used to...

At any rate, the 100v3's have some reputation as having a resonant enclosure, and I'd be willing to believe that it does undergo some changes some over time. If that works for you, great.

bunky · « **Reply #34 on:** 29 Aug 2005, 11:56 pm »

Quote from: sts9fan

So why would you think a speaker with more drivers would take longer to break in? That does not make any sence. I have studio 60v3s and I noticed no change over time. They sound great out of the box.

it is not what i think it is what i observed. and unless my memory fails me the studio 60 v3s only have one woofer per speaker. how do you reach your conclusion so confidently based on what is a apples vs oranges comparison at best? the paradigm reference studio v3 series is a decent speaker but if i were looking for ways to describe the sound of this loudspeaker line great would seem to be a bit of a stretch!

sts9fan · « **Reply #35 on:** 30 Aug 2005, 12:08 am »

Lets not get testy here. Nobody was attacking anyone.

Personally I do think my Paradigms sound F'n GREAT!! I don't care if they are a markenting machine or if they are too large to be cool. To ME they sound GREAT and thats all that matters. I was not attacking your gear.
Anyway what I was getting at is that if all the drivers are being driven at the same time why would a speaker with one (yes like mine) or 3??

We were not debating if Paradigm sucks or not.

bunky · « **Reply #36 on:** 30 Aug 2005, 12:27 am »

Quote from: ScottMayo

After 400 hours of 3 woofers working away through spikes, are you sure what got broken in wasn't your floor? I bet the nails into the subfloor aren't holding quite as tight as they used to...

At any rate, the 100v3's have some reputation as having a resonant enclosure, and I'd be willing to believe that it does undergo some changes some over time. If that works for you, great.

my subfloor is 1" solid wood tongue and groove planking and none of it came loose including the nails. but i must admit your post had me laughing.

bunky · « **Reply #37 on:** 30 Aug 2005, 12:57 am »

Quote from: sts9fan

Lets not get testy here. Nobody was attacking anyone.

Personally I do think my Paradigms sound F'n GREAT!! I don't care if they are a markenting machine or if they are too large to be cool. To ME they sound GREAT and thats all that matters. I was not attacking your gear.
Anyway what I was getting at is that if all the drivers are being driven at the same time why would a speaker with one (yes like mine) or 3??

We were not debating if Paradigm sucks or not.

i am cool calm and collected. i am not a electrical engineer and i have no explanation for what i observed. when i said the paradigms were a decent speaker i meant it. no attacks were launched against paradigm period. i would not have spent the cash on the 100 v3s if i thought they sucked.on another note :i am willing to part with the100v3s for a decent price if you are interested pm me.

WEEZ · « **Reply #38 on:** 30 Aug 2005, 01:06 am »

..back to the topic...

Yeah, I think speakers have a break-in period. It varies with the 'stiffness' of the surround material; the type of cap in the crossover; and what shielded dielectric there might be in the wiring.

I'm no scientific guru- but I can still hear. And I've heard my speakers change from when they were 'new'- to within the first week, or so. The bass blossomed after a few days and the highs relaxed some.

Was it 'night and day'?- well, no; but it was audible, most definately.

All I can say is- if you hear it- fine. If you don't- fine too.

Is it placeebo? Maybe. In the end, it really only matters if your satisfied.

WEEZ

WEEZ

bunky · « **Reply #39 on:** 30 Aug 2005, 01:09 am »

Quote from: WEEZ

..back to the topic...

Yeah, I think speakers have a break-in period. It varies with the 'stiffness' of the surround material; the type of cap in the crossover; and what shielded dielectric there might be in the wiring.

I'm no scientific guru- but I can still hear. And I've heard my speakers change from when they were 'new'- to within the first week, or so. The bass blossomed after a few days and the highs relaxed some.

Was it 'night and day'?- well, no; but it was audible, most definately.

All ...

i agree!