[Dan Banquer]

Some of you may find this article interesting.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/loudspeakers/SpeakerBreakIn.php

d.b.

[PhilNYC]

I disagree with one of the author's initial presumptions:

"2. No single instance of performance deterioration, by a correctly functioning driver, owing to break in, was found."

I find that speakers go from good to bad to good etc all throughout the break-in process.

And the article doesn't address crossover burn-in at all...

[_scotty_]

I found the article pathetically simplistic in its approach.  No distortion measurements  were given, either before or after  "break in" is alleged to have occured.  Only by tracking the change in THD and IMD as well as
complex toneburst distortion products via a series of measurements over time will any meaningful  data be generated.  We are listening to distortion
hopefully decrease over time as the suspension of the driver increases in compliance and linearity.  To suggest that the drivers will be broken in by test
signals which are typically 1watt is ludicrous.  As an example the Titanic MKII
woofers used in my Tetons required several hours of break-in which was accomplished by using a combination of low frequency complex signals and 20hz sine waves at near maximum excursion levels  before accurate measurements of T/S parameters were obtained by Dayton.  
 Maybe a future article will include a  comprehensive series distortion measurements which will actually shed some light on this phenomenon.
Scotty

[Dan Banquer]

Scotty and Phil;
Did either one of you take any before and after measurements?  Scotty; I like your mention of THD measurements; did you take any before and after measurements here?
I remember talking to Bud Fried while he was still alive, and  the only thing he ever did for "break in" was put his hand behind the woofer and stretch them out a bit before inserting them into the cabinet., if I remember correctly. He never mentioned anything about crossover break in.
                       d.b.

[ScottMayo]

Some of you may find this article interesting.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/loudspeakers/SpeakerBreakIn.php

d.b.

When I ask a speaker manufactuer to do a burn in for me, I usually specify 100 hours, varying load. Is this so the speaker will sound better?

Heck no. It's so anything bad that's going to happen to the speaker is going to happen on his floor, not mine. 100 hours continuous play will shake out driver problems, marginal crossover components, and give the enclosure a good shake down. By the time it's over, anything that wants to rip, shift, cook or crack, will have.

By the same token, crossovers don't break in. Coils get to their proper field in under a second when charged; caps in crossovers get to where they need to be even faster. Resistors shouldn't get warm in crossover designs, so thermal considerations aren't supposed to apply at all. "Break in" happens in under a second, and it happens each time you start playing a signal through the crossover. The only changes that happen to a crossover over time are *bad* ones - caps sometimes degrade over time.

And speaker wire and interconnects do not break in, period. If they did, you could do an A/B test on a new cable and a year old one from the same manufacturer and be able to tell them apart. And you can't.

Anyway, there's a very simple way to dispel the "consumer break-in" myth. Let's assume that just running a speaker, cable or amp at some load for some length of time would make it better.

Has anyone noticed that manufacturers of audiophile gear are a little... competitive? These folk are doing constant (and sometimes expensive) R&D to get microscopic improvements in accuracy. (Well, the honest ones are: the rest are in constant R&D to make irrelevant changes that the Marketing folk can write pages of pseudoscience babble about. Though surely I wouldn't be referring to using batteries to charge the /dielectric/ of a speaker cable or anything.)

So you're going to tell me that these folk, desperate for any competitive edge, spending wads of cash in R&D to gain just a handful of audiophile sales, are not going to spend ten cents of electricity on a trivial break-in procedure that makes the product sound better? Get real!

The reality is, the honest ones ship their product having done anything and everything they know how to do, to make it as perfect as it can be, before you get it. If burn in helps, they've done it for you. If turning it upside down and waving a dead chicken over it helped, they'd do that too. Twice, to make sure, just in case their competitors only did it once.

So where's the break in myth coming from? Two places, I believe:

Consumers. Human ears adapt to what they hear. Anyone who wears glasses knows how this works with the eye: you get a new pair of glasses, it's different than your last pair, and your brain starts screaming about the differences. But a week later your vision is undistorted and clear and "broken in". The glasses didn't change, but some brain wiring sure did.

Ears do the same thing. Break in happens, but it happens between your ears.

Manufacturers. If they can get you to hang on to the speakers during "break-in", your brain wiring will adjust and you'll come to like the speakers: that is, your brain will stop screaming about how they sound "wrong" compared to your last set.  And since it's *really* hard to sell the idea that "you should just keep listening - they will grow on you, honestly they will"... the break-in story gets the nod instead.

One caveat: I do believe that huge subwoofers with really big, thick surrounds take longer than 10 seconds to achieve final break in. I bet it's more like minutes.

[PhilNYC]

I'm not going to write a lengthy response, because this topic has been debated to death, and I've spent my fair share writing posts on my thoughts ad naseum in the past.  I'll make a couple of comments, then no more from me on the subject:

As a dealer, I have plenty of opportunities to listen to new vs. used gear of the same make/model.  And because I operate out of my home, with my main listening room as my showroom, I am often in a position where I am changing gear in-out on a daily or weekly basis.  So...no opportunity for my ears to "break in".  And there is no question in my mind that the differences between a brand new speaker and one that has been played 100+ hours sound different.  Wildly different?  No, but enough to be very noticeable not only by me, but by my customers and my family (of whom there are no audiophiles).

The idea that the notion of break-in makes it easier to sell speakers and other gear cannot be further from the truth for me.  I've tried demoing gear that has not been broken in, and the shortcomings are very obvious.  Have that customer come back a week later, and they find the demo much more pleasing.  This means that I need to spend the time and effort to make sure all new demo gear I get is driven ample time for things to settle in.  

In many instances, if a customer orders a piece of gear, and there is an inventory delay for new units, I will loan the customer my demo unit until the new unit arrives.  This gives a prime opportunity to hear new vs. used gear, and 100% of the time it has shown audible differences.  On two occasions, I've had customers request that I bring the demo unit back after a month to compare and see if his new speakers have broken in, and lo and behold, the speakers sound much more alike.  I've done this for speakers, amps/preamps, digital sources, and cables.  And with the exception of power cords, it's pretty much been consistent.

So...no, I have not taken measurements (I do not have the equipment or experience to do so).  But my life as a dealer would be a heck of a lot easier if I didn't have to deal with break-in.  Speakers and amps are the worst (speakers for their mechanical break-in, amps for the huge number of power caps), although my DAC took a good 300 hours before it sounded good.  Guys from the NY Audio Rave can testify to the changes they've heard at my place with regards to these things.

Whoops...didn't mean to write so much.  But the good news is that's all you'll hear from me on this subject...

[lonewolfny42]

PhilNYC :

Guys from the NY Audio Rave can testify to the changes they've heard at my place with regards to these things.

[/list:u]

I wanna testify !!![/list:u]
Phil is correct...on at least two different ocassions, at Phil's and Daniel's, the speakers did exhibit changes for the better as they "broke-in". I heard it.... [/list:u]

[warnerwh]

I'd have to swear break in on speakers is very real.  On a few occasions now the tone becomes more relaxed.  This has been with speakers I know are worked at the factory. Just went through this again the other day.  When you have two different sets of speakers with the same drivers, one pair new and the other one used and the new pair sounds like the used ones used to then what is it if it isn't some sort of break in?  How can this be?  

I'm from the objectivist camp although I seriously doubt physicists know all there is to know as they'd like to claim.  I wouldn't know any better but my father had a degree in physics and he felt strongly about it.

The people at Audioholics are trying to make their bones with research that refutes many audiophile beliefs, especially with wire.  I do find it interesting on how these same people can say an amp sounds better than another one or that it sounded better through the xlr inputs when the amp wasn't even balanced. If this same person can't hear speakers change over the first 50hrs or so then how can he hear an amps differences between the rca and xlr inputs(Parasound in this case).

[ScottMayo]

So...no, I have not taken measurements (I do not have the equipment or experience to do so). But my life as a dealer would be a heck of a lot easier if I didn't have to deal with break-in.

Then order them broken in! I can't believe that a reputable speaker manufacturer would toss away so simple an improvement as running the speaker before shipping, especially if asked by one of their own dealers. I can understand if it's a midfi manufacturer who mass produces the gear in Asia, but if you're talking about high end gear there's no excuse for selling stuff that's not ready to rock on delivery.

Can you imagine getting a pair of glasses and being told you should run a flashlight through them for a week before using them?

I suddenly appreciate VMPS. They precook the speakers they ship, by default, and they didn't even blink when I asked for some extra run-in on mine. And the speakers have been rock solid performers, no drift in behaviour, from day one of my ownership. Ditto my Bryston amps (also precooked, as part of the quality control), come to think of it.

Heck, I've installed mid-fi gear in parts of my house (if Audiosource inwalls count as mid-fi - that might be a stretch) and the sound has remained just the same as it when installed.  (Which is a pity; it's not exactly wonderful.) And I really doubt they got an extensive precook...

[PhilNYC]

Then order them broken in! I can't believe that a reputable speaker manufacturer would toss away so simple an improvement as running the speaker before shipping, especially if asked by one of their own dealers. I can understand if it's a midfi manufacturer who mass produces the gear in Asia, but if you're talking about high end gear there's no excuse for selling stuff that's not ready to rock on delivery.
..

That doesn't solve anything.  Either way, there is a delay between the time I order the speaker and the time it is ready to demo.

My post and my point was not to complain that manufacturers do not provide support to dealers...in fact, the #1 criteria I have for working with a company (after sound quality) is that the company is easy/good to work with.  (The only instance I have had problems is when I asked Blue Circle to run something an extra 100 hours before shipping to a customer was that Gilbert threatened to use a Barbara Streisand recording for the break-in process   ).  My post and my point was to assert my experiences with break in, and that some of the reasons some people think it is simply a myth (eg. it is somehow greed on the part of manufacturers and dealers) goes contrary to my experiences.

[sts9fan]

Break in can be described in one word: PLACEBO

You walked away and came back expecting a MINOR change.  Your brain gave it to you. As for the raves its a even more common accurance which happens in groups called suggestion. The fact of the matter is you may think you have the most golden ear around but you are still human and susceptible to the placebo effect. If you say you are not then you really are delusional. Your customers and family are even more susceptible to this because they have no scientific background or understanding. They except what you tell them about break-in. This makes them even more likly to "hear" a difference. That is why  the comment about a layman noticing the difference is even more moot then a pro hearing it. I am not trolling here but EVERYBODY is affected by placebo. Electronics do not break in. Speakers may take a minute to loosen up.

[Dan Banquer]

Scot Mayo has brought up some interesting points. Any reputable mamufactirer will burn in their product for 100 hours as a "shake down" for any marginal parts or marginal assembly. I do similar things for my own products becasue I don't like having to do warranty repairs!
But the audiophile phenomena of burn in is another matter so I will ask all of you to follow what I am about to say.
As an ex formally trained musician I can tell you that anyone with this training goes through a great deal of ear training. This is a way of learning for your brain to absorb more of what you listen to the first time and be able to either write  the music down on paper that you just heard of play it back on your instrument. This is a very involved learning process and it is really a life long process.
The audiophile claim of burn in is really a similar process. Your brain does not absorb everything the first time around. One should not feel bad or inferior about this because very few of us have the talent or retention of Mozart who at the tender age of seven could go to a concert and then come home to write the entire thing down on paper with only a few mistakes!
I don't get everything the first time either, practically no one does. So the so called burn in process is really more of the brain absorbing things it didn't the first time around or even the second or third etc etc, around. In reality this is a good thing becasue this allows to revisit some of our favorite music again and again to reabsorb it or find something new.
Recently I purchased the CD Overtime from the Dave Holland Big Band. This has some complex arranging and composition plus some very good solo work. After listening to this CD about six times I finally got most of what I was able to absorb. I still go back from time to time to listen again.
That's not break in folks, that's the human response to good music.
          d.b.

[sts9fan]

This is why even on a decade old rig the fifth time you listen to a album you hear a lot more little aspects of the music.

[woodsyi]

That doesn't solve anything.  Either way, there is a delay between the time I order the speaker and the time it is ready to demo.

My post and my point was not to complain that manufacturers do not provide support to dealers...in fact, the #1 criteria I have for working with a company (after sound quality) is that the company is easy/good to work with.  (The only instance I have had problems is when I asked Blue Circle to run something an extra 100 hours before shipping to a customer was that Gilbert thre ...

BUY USED!  Already broken in! Unless broken down!

[ScottMayo]

That doesn't solve anything.  Either way, there is a delay between the time I order the speaker and the time it is ready to demo.

If the manufacturer builds a few units in advace of sales, those prebuilt units can be burnt in before you order them. They are sitting there anyway; they might as well be getting ready for use.

If the manufactuer builds when the order is received - what I'm more used to - then frankly adding 2 days of burn-in to a week lag time isn't generally the end of the world, and the manufacturer can simply dedicate a very small room to all the gear he's burning in. Which is more than either a dealer or a customer can usually do. ("Dear, I need to keep this speaker cranking in the living room for the next 3 days straight, you won't mind, will you?")

Well, as you say, you've heard a difference in some speakers and that's more than I can claim. But I think it behooves the manufacturer to take care of that issue.

I also believe most won't. They keep the upgrade/resale market alive by kowing that people who buy speakers used are thinking "hey, it's already broken in." That's less disturbing than "Hey, the speaker was sold as good sounding as it was ever going to get, and now it's *used*. Why should I buy it?" And that thinking wouldn't support upgrade sales.

[Dan Driscoll]

I believe it takes much longer than 10 minutes to physically break in a driver, particularly larger bass and sub-woofer drivers. A perfect example fr comparison is a new pair of shoes, just flexing the in your hand a few times or walking a few steps is not enough. To completely break them in, it takes much more time and use, probably thousands of step. A loudpeaker driver, particularly the surround, is no different.

Whether or not the difference between 100 steps (or 10 minutes) of break in time and 5,000 steps (or 100 hours) can be felt (or is audible) is another debate. I suspect it varies from one wearer or listener to another. I can definitely feel the difference between shoes with 100 step on them and later, when they have 5000 steps.

[sts9fan]

drivers are not shoes and the differences are much more subtle

[Marbles]

So you're going to tell me that these folk, desperate for any competitive edge, spending wads of cash in R&D to gain just a handful of audiophile sales, are not going to spend ten cents of electricity on a trivial break-in procedure that makes the product sound better? Get real!  ...

Scott, many cable companies do put their cables on a "cooker" prior to sending them out, because they can tell the difference before and after they are cooked.

[Dan Banquer]

"Scott, many cable companies do put their cables on a "cooker" prior to sending them out, because they can tell the difference before and after they are cooked."
I'll believe there is a difference after cable cooking when someone shows me the data for a before and after. Since I haven't seen any of this I'm going to assume that there really is none.
              d.b.

[Marbles]

Dan,

I won't try to convince you or anyone else, just pointing out to Scott his mistatement.

If you beleive in break in, great, if you don't, it won't impact my life any....