[MattCassidy]

hi All,

I read somewhere that Tara labs cable has a particular synergy with the AKSA products. Can anyone elaborate? I have these for interconnects from CD player to AKSA 100N (with volume pot). I am shortly to get a GK1 in the chain and so will need more. Also what about speaker cable, I must admit to being a bit of a skeptic at first but buggered if I know, everyone seems to think there is something in it, so who am I to argue.

I am also curious about Bi-Wiring, it has been a while since I cracked open the top of the AKSA but since I will be removing the volume pot soon, the lid will be off and if it is worth it I can run anotehr set of speaker outputs while I am there. I recently questioned a very clever fellow in Brisbane and he gave me an explanation of the theory of Bi-Wiring, something about each cable carrying less of the frequency spectrum, and the setup acting as a star earth or soem such thing. Most of it was over my head to be honest.

Kind regards
Matt

[Seano]

I think you'll find the specific reference to Tara Lab cable for the AKSA was for the speakers rather than interconnects.  It was also for product that's no longer available in Oz unless some hifi shop has it lying forgotten in their back shed. And the same may be true in the US too.

Be that as it may, Tara is still good stuff. I too also have a Tara interconnect (just what it connects from and to I can't say because I don't remember - actually I don't really care) but then I've got a few others (QED, Monster) too.

In truth, at the level I play at (I refuse to spend more than $100 on an interconnect) I'm flat out telling the difference between one or the other.

As for speaker cables, I spent about $400 on 16 metres of QED Silver Anniversary biwire a couple of years back. If you buy it from the UK you'll get it for nearly half of the Oz price (try www.hificables.co.uk) even with freight included. Regardless once I'd spent that sort of cash then I'll be damned if I'm going to try anything else. To my ears it sounds just fine!

[AKSA]

Matt,

I'm going out on a limb here;  something I enjoy doing from time to time.  

You can easily go overboard with cables and interconnects.  There is a highly sophisticated marketing pitch out there which has almost convinced people that these are the most important part of the system.

Absolute nonsense.  The active circuitry, source and speakers remain, and always will remain, the most important parts of the system.  How marketing has so effortlessly managed to elevate cables beyond the realm of common sense has always astonished and disappointed me.

Of course, my POV is hotly contested by cable sellers and many DIY people.  That's fine, I can live with it, but essentially the consumer has to make up his own mind.

I would bet that 99% of audiophiles could not tell the difference in a DOUBLE BLIND TEST between a home made and a moderately priced interconnect.  I'm damn sure of this.  I've not been able to tell differences in my one off testing, yet I've always been able to pick up differences with sources, amps and speakers.  Clear as day.

As a caveat, I will say that grossly underengineered cables do sound really bad.  Ignition lead on autos, for example, sounds bad.  I once tried it.  Appalling.  But if it's copper wire with a shield and reasonable quality connectors (ie good thermal and electrical contact) then it's just fine.

As for the Tara Labs, at Occam's suggestion, I bought a set.  It cost me $US150 and another $40 shipping.  Very expensive.  But I have to say in careful tests against my separate 20A auto cable for 80 cents a foot I could not hear a difference, I really couldn't.  But it sure looks the goods.....  

I don't want to start a war of words here, because this is so subjective and only double blind tests in a controlled and expensive environment will tell us one way or the other.  None of us have the time or energy to seriously insult each other as we brandish 50 lb flamethrowers!  I would say that silver coated copper wire of the type used in aerospace is a no-no, because of the non-ohmic layer of the silver amalgam right at the surface, but aside from that notable exception, and assuming pure copper conductors of moderate dimension surrounded by an earth shield, I can't pick a difference.

So, Matt, Jaycar and DS have snazzy looking interconnects at lowish cost, they will fit the need, and for speaker cable, try 20A multistrand auto cable, single wires for each of the two terminations on the speaker, make 'em different colors, I think Burton and Olex have what you are looking for!

Incidentally, separate wires for the two speaker connections is a great idea to reduce capacitance to near vanishing point.  Very good for the AKSA.

In closing I would say that I could be wrong.  Of course;  this has happened before!!    So I'm more than happy to listen to others points of view.  If you are right, I'm wrong, and I've learned something!

Cheers,

Hugh

[MattCassidy]

Very interesting Hugh, what do you suggest for the separate speaker cables for the speaker connections, just split it somewhere near the begining or do it internally and run two sets of outs from the case?

Cheers
Matt

[AKSA]

Matt,

I've never been much of a fan of bi-wiring.  As the quality of the crossover design improves, it has less and less effect.

However, if you decide to bi-wire, the runs can start at amp, two wires connected to each binding post, then back to the four separate posts on the speaker.

Cheers,

Hugh

[Carlman]

I found the Tara labs speaker cable to sound better than anything I tried on the AKSA 100wN.  It just seemed to control the drivers better, and got the pace, separation, and all the other goodies better than any other cable I tried.  

I also tried some silver coated (EGAD!) speaker cable with good results as well. (GASP!)  Yes, it CAN sound good.  Other cables sounded better, though.  But it wasn't terrible.  The only cable I thought detrimented the sound of the AKSA was Canare 4S11 cable.  It's often touted as good stuff and many people like it but it made for a veiled, mediocre sound I couldn't live with.

As for IC's, I like Audience Conductor.  I've had these cables longer than anything else I've tried and to me, they just sound 'right'.  I'm quite happy with them.  I wouldn't mind making some cat5 IC's, though.  On the AKSA 100wN, I found the cat5 cable better than CCC copper and some other boutique copper I tried... and cat5 is very cheap... even free sometimes if you're in the right place at the right time..  (I work in IT)

So, that's my 2 cents... I can't believe you didn't have better results with the Tara cable, Hugh... It was as clear as could be to me... and Occam... and we're 700 miles apart... to each his own...

-Carl

[AKSA]

But Carl,

You didn't have my el cheapo 20A auto hook up wire to compare it to!!

With two separate runs per speaker, it had VERY low capacitance, and took some beating.  Notice that the Tara Labs cable has the same arrangement - separated conductors, not figure 8 joined, as most are.

Cheers,

Hugh

[Carlman]

True... Just when I thought I'd tried every el cheapo DIY wire I could... Hugh comes up with yet another....

I have found that lamp cord, extension cord, solid house wire, basic 'speaker cable' sold off the spool at hardware stores... aren't very good for my purposes.  Is 20A auto wire the same as THNN wire?  If so, that stuff makes great power cords also.

-C

[AKSA]

Carl,

The killer with speaker cables is capacitance.  For a global NFB amp you need to get it right down.  Most of the differences in cabling can probably be attributed to how much C there is in the run;  and a long run, 15' or more, can be very problematic.

If you separate the wires, keep them apart at least an inch, then almost any wire would do the job well, as long as there was sufficiently low resistance with nice thick cross section.

Don't know about THNN, don't have it Downunder.  What's it like?

Cheers,

Hugh

[Carlman]

I went to get a description for you off the web.... but learned that THHN refers to the insulation only.  It's stranded copper with a PVC jacket.... it comes in a variety of guages and colors, it's mainly for electrical machinery.  I think the copper is of good quality.  A lot of people into DIY antenna's use it... In fact, I found this link fairly interesting:
http://www.qth.com/ka9fox/thhn_wire_sum.txt

The best descriptions are in the last 3/4th's of that page.

However, it's probably not much like auto wire... I think the auto wire has smaller strands... (and likely more 'skin effect'   )  Everyone has to have their limits on cable jibberish.

-C

[rez]

Hugh,
So other than the Tara Labs speaker cable,  that seems to be rapidly becoming unobtainium, what other budget friendly cables meet your low capacitance requirements?
thanks
Roman

[andyr]

Matt,

I'm going out on a limb here;  something I enjoy doing from time to time.  

Incidentally, separate wires for the two speaker connections is a great idea to reduce capacitance to near vanishing point. Very good for the AKSA. ...

Hi Hugh,

Yes, separating the wires is a good thing from the AKSA's POV but I suggest it is NOT a good thing for the speaker cable's POV!  

If we take the POV of what makes the ultimate speaker cable (and JUST speaker cable ... I'm not talkin bout ICs here!) it is:
* zero L
* zero R
* no smearing .. from either dielectric or too-thick solid-core or strand-jumping etc etc.

Unfortunately, such an "ideal" cable will probably have too much C for the AKSA to cope with.

Hence you construct/buy a cable which has a low-enough C for an AKSA but also the minimum L and R you can.  High L inhibits the current running along the cable - degrading the sound ... and spreading the '+' & '-' wires apart so there is zero C will increase L significantly.

Regards,

Andy

[rabbitz]

Speaker cables... pfft. Been there done that and tried heaps from Monster Z series to QED Silver Anniversary (which I couldn't get it to co-exist with my stuff.. lost the bass) and ended up with el cheapo Supra Rondo from Jaycar which worked better than all of them. Simple no fuss cable with a slight twist and tinned, yep el cheapo tinned OFC.... from the oldest speaker cable manufacturer.

[Felipe]

Hi,


In order not the deviate too much from the topic, could i suggest a small guide to build the Tara Labs cable ? I am sure many ppl are interested.


Carl,

Can you provide the AWG of the cable (18 ??) and the number of twists per foot of you Tara cables ?
I am assuming that they are the round solid version ? Not stranded ?

Hugh,

Your 20A auto wire is stranded and has wich AWG ?
Does it have fancy outer jacket or plain PVC ?
Do you use only 2 wires per speaker, and no twist what so ever ?



Thank you

Felipe

[stvnharr]

One wades into cable discussions like this, wondering why!

I've had a fair number of fancy cables in my systems thru the years, and listened to a fair number of others in other systems.  I listened to a lot of Tara Labs speaker cables several years ago.  The most expensive ones sounded the best.  They had separate runs for + and -.  The less expensive ones sounded less.  But if there is no comparative listening, well, they all sounded just great.

If you can build an amp, you ought to be able to build your own cables!!
Ready made cables are known for their tremendous amount of markup, no matter the cost of the cable, expensive or cheap, no matter the brand!!!!!!

If you want to use automotive wire for the wire, well, it'll work.  You won't really know how well it works until you do some comparative listening with other cables.  It does NOT have to be double blind, just comparative and on same system with same music, same volume, etc.
If you don't understand bi-wire, don't bother.  It's twice the amount of wire, read cost, and any benefit is subject to a lot of discussion, often heated.

Just remember this.   The Aksa amp is a high quality audio amplifier.  The audio tranmission wires/cables that transport the audio signal to and from the amplifier deserve to be of the same high quality, and NOT just some el cheapo piece of wire that will work!

[AKSA]

Hi Steven,

Wow, what can I say!!  Thank you would perhaps be a good start!

Felipe,

Looks to be multiple strands, likely 26AWG, probably about 60-70 of them, pure copper.  Coating is high temp PVC.

Hope this is helpful,

Cheers,

Hugh

[rez]

I've been lurking around audiocircle for some time and one thing I have been very favourably impressed by is the number of folks here who appear to have been around the block a time or two and who have a healthy perspective on excessive hyperbole and slick adspeak.  In particular, I find the ability of many posters to present their ideas and experiences in a reasoned and non-defensive manner commendable and I am learning a lot.  If only I had more time... .  At a minimum, the various points of view suggest many possibilities for exploration - and, best of all, provide avenues of pursuing a hobby on a realistic budget.

[AKSA]

Hi Rooman,

Thank you for your post.  I'm sorry I did not earlier answer your question about budget wires;  but I'm confident you have something useful now.

As for hype, it must never be forgotten that since a sale takes place on both an emotional and an intellectual plane, some hype is necessary to foster the natural romance of the former and get the seller to first base.  But lying is definitely out, and human ingenuity knows no bounds, so there is always a cheaper way........

Cheers,

Hugh

[rez]

Hi Hugh,
Thanks for that... one of the things I have learned in life is the truth of the old saw  "...learn from the mistakes of others because you won't live long enough to make them all yourself" and various corollaries "...stand on the shoulders of giants and you'll see a lot further".  I also very much appreciated the reference to human ingenuity - I know that my best work has come when I've worked on a problem with total focus and a contemplative (dare I say spiritual) manner - remarkable the solutions one comes up with.  OTOH I've also done some pretty good work when I've been up to my ass in alligators and long since forgotten that the original point of the exercise was to empty the swamp....  

So, having a forum like this really brings a lot of good stuff to the "table" - and I find that after some careful reading, even though there are a myriad of POVs,  one starts to find certain areas of agreement and potential solutions that suit ones skills, budget, etc.

good on ya', down undah and all that  (':D')
Roman

[stvnharr]

Budget DIY wire suggestion:
Vampire CCC wire single strand 25 ga. urethane coated from Michael Percy.  It's like about $5 for 100 feet.  
Braid the wire 2+ and 2-, cover with techflex, connect to rca of choice.  If you don't go overboard on the rca's, total cost of around $25 per IC.

For speaker wire, use say 8+ and 8-, cover with techflex, connect to spades or bananas.  Cost is a bit more than IC's, but not too awful much.

This is what I use.  I sold my mega-buck Cardas top of the line, re. very very expensive, and Coincident, less expensive but still a bit.

IC's are not hard to make.  Speaker wires can be.

This is just one idea, there are of course many others.  BUT, this has a far better cost/performance ratio than any ready made cable, or automotive wire.