[jcoat007]

I am using a Modwright SWL 9.0 pre-amp.  I have been using a Butler 2250, but just switched in my Odyssey Extreme Monos today for a comparison.  The Extremes seem to be more transparent and more extended on top.  Also I am getting a better sense of layering depth of the soundstage.  

The Butlers have a more "weighty" presentation.  Very full and very musical, but they don't seem to be as transparent.  

I need to let the Extremes settle and get the caps all charged back up, so tomorrow is another day with them.  

What are you Druid owners using with yours?

[miklorsmith]

I've got the same preamp you do.  So far, I've used a stock Clari-T, a dual-monoa Clari-T, and a 45-watt Audio Zone Amp-1 - an integrated gainclone.  First, 6 tripath watts is plenty with the Druids.  Last night, I had the stereo playing in the basement while I was upstairs with the stairwell door open and it was loud upstairs.  It was also very clean.  I've measured an uncompressed 105 db out of the Druids on the stock Clari-T.

The Clari-T is an outstanding amp for the Druids.  Of the two, I like (of course) the dual-mono unit better.  It's just more of everything they do right.

The Audio Zone unit was not as good in the audition I had downstairs.  I actually bought it for the living-room system for some VMPS 626's, and there it sounds articulate and clean.  On the Druids, I was getting some digital treble that isn't there with the Modwright/Clari-T.  And, this is with a Modwright tubed CDP that is NOT digital in signature.  Now, this was a two album demo, and inconclusive.

I e-mailed Srajan about it, since his review did not parallel my experience and he said he didn't get any hash at all.  So. . .

Another great bet, though more expensive, would be the new Audio Zone Patek, recently reviewed.  Also 45-watts, it'd be like a kilowatt on the Druids.  I may have one in my future at some point.

Srajan also had excellent luck with the inexpensive Decware SEP amp.  And, the First Watt amps are sure to be excellent as well.

[ton1313]

I originally had them hooked up to an Odyssey Stratos w/cap upgrade & then switched out to an integra Research RDA-7 HT amp, quite an improvement over the Stratos. I have since upgraded to the Zu definitions  

[RoadTripper]

I am using the modded Clari-T although while the room was being painted I moved the Druids out and used the Bolder modded Panasonic XR45. They sounded really great with the Panny. But part of that is the room. The Panny is in the living room while the Clari-T is in a bedroom.

[Tbadder1]

When I had my Druids I drove them with an Agape Audio Labs 300B inegrated and for solid state Clayton Audio S40.  These are such great speakers they loved both of them.  Druids love power, but are more than at home with 8 watts a side.  Man oh man I miss those Druids, but the MAN has to be paid.  Don't ask.

Ton1313, you got the Definitions.  OOOOOOO...I'm so jealous.

Take care all.

[213Cobra]

I started with an Audion Silver Night 300B amp on my Zu Druids and later, on the suggestion by Sean Casey at Zu to try an 845 amp, moved to a pair of Audion Black Shadow 845 monoblocks. Outstanding and muscular.

Other amps I've used on the system are Acoustic Masterpiece M101, Audion Sterling ETSE KT88 and Audion Silver Night PX25.

I use an Audion Silver Night 1.0 tube preamp with my Black Shadows.

I also have a pair of Definitions on a different system and there use a pair of Audiopax 88 monoblocks fed by a Django Transformer Volume Control "preamp" using the +6db gain option.

Phil

[G.ear]

Phil,

Which model of the Django do you have?  Do you still listen to LPs, and if so, what type of phono stage do you use?  If you don't listen to LPs, do you know if a stand-alone dedicated phono stage has enough gain to work with the Django?  How does it compare to a top flight active tube line stage in terms of transparency, linearity, extension (top and bottom), and dynamics?  Is the volume control stepped or continuous, and if stepped, what size are the volume increments?

Anything you can share of your experience with it would be most appreciated.

Dean

[213Cobra]

Dean,

I've used the Django on both my Druids and Definitions system and settled on it with the Definitions. I may get another one for the Druids system but not sure yet.

The Druids system is powered by Audion Black Shadow amps with have sufficient gain and input sensitivity that they could be driven directly by a line-level source, like a disc player, but I want switching & volume control. When I had the Django in that system, the unity gain setting was fine for driving the amps, and I could use a phono preamp with it. I use, variously, an Audion Premier 0.5 tube phono preamp with a Blackhead II transformer fed by a Denon DL103D cartridge, or a Bel Canto solid state Phono-1 set for MC input without a transformer. Occasionally I found on a low-level LP I preferred switching in the Django's +6db gain option.

I opted to put the Django TVC on my Definitions system where remote control is a convenience but not necessary. Also, the increased resolution of the Definitions over the Druids gave me further appreciation for the stunning transparency, ultra-resolution and fine dynamics of the S&B transformers in the Django. I've owned Audio Research, New York Audio Labs, Futterman, Meridian, vintage Marantz, NEW, McIntosh, Counterpoint and Audion preamps -- and heard nearly everything else considered good in high-end circles -- and have to say that the Django is a revelation. While mine is the Stevens & Billington version, I have heard that the cheaper amorphous transformer version is excellent too, and preferred by some. I may buy one just to find out.

The Definitions system, as you know, is powered by Audiopax 88s. I had to innovate to use the Django in this system. The Audiopax has only two tubes in the gain path and total gain is only 18db. Very low compared to most power amps in which you'd expect 26 -32 db gain. The Django is usable there in the +6db gain position but just barely. Audiopax doesn't give a spec for input sensitivity on the Audiopax but I estimate they need something like 2.5v in to be driven to full power. DVD movie soundtracks are mastered to a lower audio level than Redbook CD standard so I found that I could not get full dynamics from movies on that system, but CDs worked fine at nearly WOT (wide-open thottle). So I had John at Bent Audio package another pair of S&B transformers in his MC transformer cylinders for fixed 6db gain and put those in between the Django output and the Audiopax inputs. Now that gives me a total of 12 db of passive gain for any source before the signal hits the amp and everything is fine. With the 82K input impedence of the Audiopax amps, the load values work and I don't have any frequency anomalies introduced by the extra transformers.

The Audion tube preamp is a line-stage and simple circuit that sounds unintrusive, superbly musical, fluid and intimate, while having the drive to really rock, too. And it has remote switching and volume. Their equipment really should sell in much higher volumes if more people heard it. But as good as it is along with some other tube units I've auditioned in my systems, it still has a tell-tale "powered gain" signature, which you don't notice until you've heard something that doesn't have it. The Django introduces none of the goofy problems associated with passive volume controls -- an audiophile tangent I never really understood as a seduction.  The TVC is clean, fast, and revealing. Very alive and natural. I prefer it to any preamp I've owned or heard, with the possible exception of the Nagra PL-L and PL-P. That the Django is so inexpensive is a poke in the eye to the high-end establishment. Audio Zone and S&B themselves have more expensive units with glitzier cosmetics. The Django is a simple oblong box with a silver grain painted cover and thick black-anodized aluminum faceplate with 2 matte aluminum knobs.

Django has excellent switchgear and connectors, and can be ordered with silver wire. I'll tell you one thing it is -- it's a true entry into high-end sound nearly anyone interested in this hobby can afford. After hearing the Almarro A205 amp last week at the Zu demo in L.A., I imagine a Django + Almarro gain chain. If you bought the amorphous transformer version of the Django assembled, that would be $1690 for the pair at list price. Add a pair of Zu Tones for $1795 and any decent disc player at $500 or less and you'd have a killer, compact, trouble-free, ~107db dynamic range true high-end $4000 system.

How well the Django works with a phono stage depends upon the input sensitivity of your power amp and the gain available from your phono stage. With the Black Shadow amps, my Bel Canto with 60db total gain, or the Audion + Blackhead with 68db total gain are fine. The Trichord Research Dino phono preamp gives you up to 74 db of selectable gain, so you can find good phono stages to close any gain gap that Django exposes in a system using LPs.

Just as Zu speakers for their lack of fatigue characteristics can make you dissatisfied with other speakers you once enjoyed, the Django has the same effect. I was skeptical but very much struck by the effect. Also, the S&B transformers, being magnetic, definitely exhibit serious improvement during break-in. When you first use one, you can hear it improve by the hour and that continues through perhaps 50 or 60 hours of use and then the rate of improvement tapers. But some people that have had Djangos longer than me claim the break-in continues for months. Devotees say you don't want to give up broken in Django or trade someone for a new one.

The Django has a 23-position stepped switch with -52db attenuation from the 20 taps on the S&B xformers. Steps vary from 2db to 6db. On the face of it, I thought I'd find that a little coarse and preferred the idea of 32 or more increments. But it hasn't been a problem for me -- my listening moves the volume control in a narrow arc. It certainly is much better than the 12-step attenuators on the 47 Labs GainCard. Sound is effortless, extended in both directions, neutral and musical. The Django is outstanding at passing through the emotion in a performance and imaging is convincing, fully dimensioned.

A few companies are promising remote control versions of the S&B TVC. One already exists and it lists for something like $9000 while having the same heart as the Django. So convenience will cost in these units. If you don't mind getting out of your chair and 4 inputs is enough, then the Django (and for more money the Audio Zone Pre) is probably the single greatest sonic bargain in all of hifi today -- at least in systems where amplifier input impedence high enough to work with it. You would be expecially impressed by the improvement a Django makes to low-volume listening.

Phil

[G.ear]

Phil,

Thanks for the thorough and informative feedback on the Django.  I have tried passive preamps in the past and found they didn't work in my previous systems--just not enough gain, so dynamics and bass reproduction were weak.  Of course, they weren't TVCs, and impedance matching was probably an issue as was the long interconnect run to the power amps of the Beveridges.  

As I've been researching SETs and SEPs, I've noted that they vary a great deal in terms of their sensitivity and/or gain, but there are quite a few that have sensitivities that are less than 1 volt, and seemingly anything less than 1 volt should work fine with the Django.  The limitations WRT the number of inputs and outputs could be a problem in some systems, but in one where you aren't needing two outputs to bi-amp, it sound like the best of all worlds.  I can certainly live with 3 inputs.  I can only imagine how pure the sound could be with Django driving a battery powered power amp driving the Definitions.  

You mentioned the 82K ohm input impedance of the Audiopax 88 as being a load value that works, and that raised a question for me as to what load values might not work?  What is the output impedance of the Django, and does it vary significantly with the volume setting?

The only offputting thing you mention is the 2 to 6 db increments on the stepped volume control.  I presently own an older CAT preamp that is quite similar in its gradations, and I often times find that one position is slightly too low in volume while the next click up is slightly too high.  Do you know if the amphorous transformer version has any finer gradations?  I'm also curious why the Django improves low-volume listening.  Is it just an impedance thing?

Dean

[213Cobra]

Dean,

This link leads to S&Bs technical brief on the TX102 transformers in the Django. It answers some of your questions in detail:

http://www.stevens-billington.co.uk/page102.htm

If you're using the +6db gain option, you should have a power amp with input impedance at 40Kohm or more. Without, you can go down to 10 or 20Kohm.

In low level listening the TX102 preserves dynamics, detail and drive because it isn't throwing away signal like a resistive passive control would. It trades voltage and current up and down it's taps, so the current drive of the signal remains at low levels. For me, the volume increments have been acceptable in the rotational range of most common use.

I agree on the battery amp suggestion. A Django + Red Wine Audio Lotus could be really interesting.

Phil

[G.ear]

Phil,

I went to the website you suggested.  Afraid some of it is a bit over my head, but I certainly got the main idea.  The input impedances at low volume levels is very high, so the signal transfer is very efficient.  The trick seems to be component matching, not that its terribly critical, but still...

Christ, if I get the Definitions, I'm going to end up changing everything else in the system.  Battery powered amps, maybe battery powered DACs--hell, why not a battery powered phono stage as well?  You could conceivably remove all A/C associated distortions just by switching to Zu speakers and doing some careful component matching.

Have you heard any of the tripath amps?  As soon as someone says "digital" to me, they tend to lose me, but I'm trying to keep an open mind.  Srajan has reviewed both the Clari-T and the Patek, and I am quite certain that he is choosing the Patek as his reference amp; and as you know, the Patek is A/C powered.  It's tough making decisions when you can't hear the stuff side by side.  

Anyway, I once again appreciate the info on the Django, and I am definitely going to pursue components that would be compatible with it.  A downside to the Patek is that the input impedance is only 22K ohms, so it may not be a great choice with the Django.

Dean

[213Cobra]

Dean,

I haven't heard the Clari-T designs yet. Among new generation of chip amps, the only one I've heard with approriate equipment to evaluate is the 47 Labs Gaincard, and it is very good indeed, if pricey. What Red Wine is doing with the Tripath circuit looks smart and I am very interested in learning how the Lotus sounds. Between their DAC and the Lotus you have the option of battery power from the output of the disc player to the speaker, with just the unpowered Django in between. One thing I noticed on the Red Wine web site is that you can order the Lotus in various gain specs. They have a 27 db gain option so that should allow you to use the Django without the +6db gain tap switched in, which makes a low input impedance acceptable. I used 7/7w 300B amps on my Druids and Definitions the first few weeks I had them, so have a good idea how well single digits drive them. When I heard the little Almarro with 4.8/4.8 watts pushing Defs and Druids in a 32' x 24' hotel room I became more convinced that a 6/6 w Tripath amp with less graceful clipping characteristics would still do nicely with Zu speakers in an average home.

Battery power is a real plus. In the mid-70s, there were 2 ultra low distortion solid state preamps introduced that seriously advanced the quality of transistor preamplification at the time -- John Curl's Levinson JC-2 and Dave Hadaway's DB Systems DB1a. Both had ultra accurate RIAA, healthy output, lowest noise to that time and measured THD at, in DB System's case, .00006% if I remember correctly.

Well, I owned a DB Systems and a friend owned a JC-2. We rigged up a gang of motorcycle batteries in series with drop resistors to power the preamps, and used the stock power supplies to trickle charge them. This was 1975. Hadaway, precise at measuring his circuit's performance, thought I was daff, citing how tightly regulated his power supply was. But the effect wasn't subtle. Running that preamp on stored DC put it in Audio Research SP3a1 territory without the noise. Everyone who heard it at the time was floored by the difference, and that was on speakers typical of the best resolution of the day, not what can be transduced today.

Not that money is cheap, but the Django isn't much of a risk and the RW Lotus is just over a G. You don't have to spring for their battery powered DAC to test the concept. But my guess is based on our exchanges so far and your music preferences you would appreciate more power. Perhaps the Lotus can be bridged or strapped to be used as monoblocks.

Not battery powered but very well regarded and much cheaper than heavyweight tube amps are the Channel Islands D100 and D200 monoblocks. CI is using tried and true robustness in the power supply in a chip amp, and that is very promising too.

I'm not expecting these amps to make me want to give up my tube amps, but I will devote a little cash to some experimentation, if for no other reason than to stay on top of what's evolving as a product of a different generation trying a new path.

Phil

[G.ear]

Phil,

I'm not expecting these amps to make me want to give up my tube amps, but I will devote a little cash to some experimentation, if for no other reason than to stay on top of what's evolving as a product of a different generation trying a new path.

I think that's a great idea.  In fact, I think you should do that right away so you can tell me whether or not you'd give up your tube amp for it .

I couldn't agree with you more regarding battery power and what it does for transparency and musicality.  The Lotus would certainly be compatible with the Django, and I'm not so sure I would really feel the need for more power with the Definitions.  Remember, I am coming from Beveridges, so the Definitions will play way loud with 6 watts compared to what I'm used to.  The reason I like amps with a little more headroom is that when you do play them loudly, you are not playing at the limits of the amp, and typically that means you are still operating the amp in it's more linear regions and at much lower levels of distortion.

I appreciate what you're saying about the Channel Islands gear, but hey, if I'm not going battery powered, I'm buying a tube amp.  Ten watts of SET or SEP power is equivalent to about 30 watts SS, IMHO.  

Seriously, though, if you do try a tripath, I would love to know your impressions of it.

Dean

[G.ear]

Phil,

As it relates to battery powered amps, have you ever checked out Altmann's stuff @ http://www.mother-of-tone.com/?  Purely from a sonics standpoint, I would have to wonder if this might not be superior to the Red Wine designs.  I suspect, however, that few would be willing to live with the cosmetics and physical arrangement of the battery and cables.

Dean

[213Cobra]

Dean,

The Mother of Tone amps are news to me. Thanks for that link! Altmann is clearly one of the New Utilitarians. I have no idea how it would compare to the Red Wine Lotus, but frankly it looks like you could bolt those Altmann amps on the back of Druids or Definitions and have a free-space powered speaker.

Phil

[Russell Dawkins]

Phil,
have you checked out this thread?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=21082&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Russell

[G.ear]

Perhaps this is old hat to many here, but this is one I hadn't seen before:  David Berning produces an amp called the Siegfried that is a 10 watt SET OTL.  It uses either the Svetlana 811 or 300 B, you pick.  Might just be the perfect amp for the Druids/Definitions.  Info available at http://www.davidberning.com/siegfried.htm.  Check it out.

[213Cobra]

I haven't heard the Berning Siegfried but know about it. The link you reference doesn't work -- it takes me to a design company. A 300B OTL is an interesting variation on the OTL theme. Most OTLs do not make perform at their best into the Definition's relatively low 6ohms. Of course a triple stack of Defs wired in series would put them in an OTL's sweet operating spot!!

With the high efficiency of the Definitions, you wouldn't have to be concerned about the low OTL output at low impedance, but the sound quality generally deteriorates as well, becoming more "hifi" the further you get from optimal impedance for the amp. It will be interesting to see from the circuit and the output rating if the Siegfried is somehow designed to be an exception.

Phil

[G.ear]

You're right, the link doesn't work.  The web address was a straight copy from the page I was on, so I don't know what goes.  Try this instead  http://www.davidberning.com/ and then click on products or on the Siegfried.

This is a very unique way to do an OTL.

[Russell Dawkins]

Phil said

Of course a triple stack of Defs wired in series would put them in an OTL's sweet operating spot!!

Or it would seem to be relatively simple to re-wire a pair with the FR drivers in series, giving 24 ohms, and padding the tweeter as necessary, but only with gain control on the subs!

submitted only somewhat in jest...
Russell