[brj]

Has anyone ever played with the "Symphony" from Olive?  I was reading through the specs, and I'm really impressed with everything you get for $899!

This is a full blown Linux based audio PC with a PowerPC processor, remote control, no fans, linear power supply, quiet 80 GB hard drive, 4 port ethernet switch, 802.11g wireless Ethernet, digital coax and optical output, 2 USB 1.1/2 ports.  It supports every common format (WAV, MP3, PCM, Ogg, FLAC, WMA, AAC, etc.), and to top it all off, if you send them all of your CDs, they'll preload the unit for free!

$899 isn't chump change, and is more expensive than something like the Squeezebox 2, but you get a lot for the money.  Frankly, I don't think I could buy that much of a computer in an alumimum case for that small a price.  To take it a step further, you can add several Sonotas in other rooms, and they will pull music off of the Symphony.

So, does anyone one have any firsthand experience with this unit?

[ScottMayo]

Has anyone ever played with the "Symphony" from Olive?

It claims it's an audio device, but they aren't publishing audio specs? Hm. I'd look for some discussion of noise, and also some discussion of how it handles multichannel sources.

[brj]

It claims it's an audio device, but they aren't publishing audio specs? Hm. I'd look for some discussion of noise

Are you talking about sources of mechanical noise from the unit itself?  It is fanless, so the only source left is the hard drive, which appears to be mounted in a manner to reduce noise when in use.  If you are talking about the quality of output signal (as in S/N ratios), I'm assuming that it sends out bit-perfect output over the digital coax or optical outputs, or perhaps even the USB port.  I don't know this for a fact, however, and thus my questions.

and also some discussion of how it handles multichannel sources.

I confess that this didn't occur to me, as I own no SACDs or DVD-As.  However, I suspect that multi-channel audio isn't within its scope, as evidenced by the fact that the CD drive is a CD/RW and not a DVD varient.

[Rob Babcock]

There's no legal way to digitize SACDs or DVD-As, so I doubt MC is one the menu, except perhaps the DD/DTS variety.

[ScottMayo]

If you are talking about the quality of output signal (as in S/N ratios), I'm assuming that it sends out bit-perfect output over the digital coax or optical outputs, or perhaps even the USB port. I don't know this for a fact, however, and thus my questions.

I assumed it had an audio output. If it's $900 for a fanless computer that doesn't output analog audio, you might want to look at Hush Technologies. They might be cheaper.

[brj]

If you are talking about the quality of output signal (as in S/N ratios), I'm assuming that it sends out bit-perfect output over the digital coax or optical outputs, or perhaps even the USB port. I don't know this for a fact, however, and thus my questions.

I assumed it had an audio output. If it's $900 for a fanless computer that doesn't output analog audio, you might want to look at Hush Technologies. They might be cheaper.

Ok, I sense a difference in desired features between us!

Since I am only interested in 2 channel audio, I want digital outputs in order to get bit-perfect data streams.  I have no desire or need for analog outputs.  My multi-channel experiences will be limited to movies, in which case I can rely on my DVD player as a source.

I've looked at Hush before, and they have some great products, but every configuration I've ever looked at was considerably more expensive than $899.  Part of that may be the Windows cost (not a plus for me) and part of it my selection of a higher end configuration.

(For reference, I think the Mac Mini would be a great option as well if Apple ever added a digital audio output.  I think it has a fan, however, and I've heard that the hard drive isn't always quiet, so there are still a few concerns.  That said, the open source nature - both hardware and software - of the Symphony greatly appeals to me.)

[JoshK]

Very interesting option.  It looks like they did the hard work for you already with configuration and build of a slim pc.  I like the one touch record and archive feature, that is a slick point.  I plan to use automation software to reach this end but it is nice that it is already done and preloading your CDs is a nice touch, although that isn't too many at FLAC on a 80GB HD.  

Does anyone know whether it will pull off external HDs? It would be a great front end if you could remove the HD and pull off a server.  I'm assuming the removing the HD would be difficult though.

[zybar]

Very interesting option.  It looks like they did the hard work for you already with configuration and build of a slim pc.  I like the one touch record and archive feature, that is a slick point.  I plan to use automation software to reach this end but it is nice that it is already done and preloading your CDs is a nice touch, although that isn't too many at FLAC on a 80GB HD.  

Does anyone know whether it will pull off external HDs? It would be a great front end if you could remove the HD and pull off a server.  I'm assuming the removing the HD would be difficult though.

80GB is just not an acceptable size for an application like this (especially at its almost $1k price point).  

Even using lossless compression, there is a small number of cd's that can be stored on such a small drive.  Seeing how cheap storage is today, I am not sure why the vendor doesn't offer larger capacity.

To me, that is a showstopper.

George

[Bingenito]

As far as the harddrive goes it does not appear that there is space within the chassis for additional drives so you would have to tag a few USB 2.0 drive bays onto it for expansion.

If you do that I would just use a laptop with outboard drives. As George mentioned storage is so cheap you could label drives by Genre and sling them around the room like jewel cases... Well almost
 

[ScottMayo]

80GB is just not an acceptable size for an application like this (especially at its almost $1k price point).  

Even using lossless compression, there is a small number of cd's that can be stored on such a small drive.  Seeing how cheap storage is today, I am not sure why the vendor doesn't offer larger capacity.

To me, that is a showstopper.

George

They are using a notebook disk, almost certainly, and a slow/small one at that, because that's the only way you can keep a disk quiet and cool. Disks click and whirrr. Over computer fan noise you don't notice, but in a fanless system, you will. Was that a quiet drum tap or a loud disk seek? Grrrr.

I spent a whole lot of time looking at quiet PCs - and ended up not building one because the tech isn't there yet. What I dream of is a system that can run games - this takes major processing power and even more major video power - play audiophile music, and run at 0db. I'd go to 10db for a real world compromise. I figured a good gamer pc with output to a projector and a good multichannel sound system (mine qualifies) would be about As Nerdish Cool As It Gets. (Can you tell I want to write video games when I grow up?)

It still can't be done reliability for under $10,000. To run fanless, you have to choke back the processing power of the PC - fast means hot, hot means dead without cooling. But games need speed, so that option is gone. Liquid cooling has pump noise. Thermocouple cooling doesn't work yet. Even if you solve the heat problem, power supplies can whine, disks rattle, and soundproofing to mask all, causes heat buildup. Huge enclosures to house your PC and seal in all the noise exist, but the cost is obscene.

The sad fact is, all the technologies we have that absorb noise, also hold heat. OC 703 is great for absorbing the kinds of noise a computer makes, but wad an enclosure with it and you get to learn about what techs used to call HCF processing mode. (Halt and Catch Fire.)

The best advice I got was to build a fast, fanless system that allows the CPU/video to cook to death, on the grounds that those will still last at least 2-3 years, and who keeps a CPU longer than that anyway? But that means a new motherboard every few years, so a new OS install... ugh. The next best plan was to keep the PC itself in a separate room, and run the video, keyboard and mouse in on long cables. Long video cables through soundproof walls was a painful prospect. I abandoned the project.

Someday, though...


Here are some folks that talk about using fans in a quiet system. Not silent, but possibly more practical if you want real PC (something that's not just an audio box) - http://www.7volts.com/quiet.htm

[zybar]

Scott,

Your post is exactly why something like the SB2 is the future.

Stick the loud and clunky pc in another room or the basement and have the totally silent SB2 (or equivalent) in your listening room.

Cheap and effective!!  Always love the combo!!

George

[JoshK]

Actually Scott, any sort of slim client doing a boot off of a remote server would be up to task and the Roku Photobridge has be hacked for just this.  You could of course build your own diskless slim client and if the guts of the processing were done on the server then the slim client wouldn't need much CPU power.

[ScottMayo]

Actually Scott, any sort of slim client doing a boot off of a remote server would be up to task and the Roku Photobridge has be hacked for just this.  You could of course build your own diskless slim client and if the guts of the processing were done on the server then the slim client wouldn't need much CPU power.

Erm - the eventual goal is to be able to play and develop computer games in the music room, because that's where the good 5.1 channel sound and projector will be. Games don't run on diskless thin clients. Heck, the kind of games I want to build don't yet run anywhere, even  on extremely fast overclocked video and multiprocessor CPU boards, but in a decade I figure we'll get there.

For just audio, I agree there are some good options out there and I'm looking at a Roku, a few months down the road. It takes very little compute power to sling digital audio streams around, which is why you can buy a silent, $300 box to do it. The disk server, as you say, lives elsewhere. A terabyte of disk plus a server to serve it is now below $1,000... good times are coming.

[gitarretyp]

They are using a notebook disk, almost certainly, and a slow/small one at that, because that's the only way you can keep a disk quiet and cool. Disks click and whirrr. Over computer fan noise you don't notice, but in a fanless system, you will. Was that a quiet drum tap or a loud disk seek? Grrrr.

I spent a whole lot of time looking at quiet PCs - and ended up not building one because the tech isn't there yet. What I dream of is a system that can run games - this takes major processing power and even mor ...

Have you looked at Zalman's fanless cases? They just released a new one, TNN 300, that looks like it performs pretty well Review. It's a full system for 1000 pounds and uses passive heatpipe cooling. A warning, the site is in the process of being slashdotted, so the response may be a bit slow.

[brj]

Have you looked at Zalman's fanless cases? They just released a new one, TNN 300, that looks like it performs pretty well Review. It's a full system for 1000 pounds and uses passive heatpipe cooling. A warning, the site is in the process of being slashdotted, so the response may be a bit slow.

 I've had that page loading for much of the morning since I first noticed the Slashdot article myself!  I've seen a few of the pages, and it looks like an impressive system, but for installation in my living room, I'd prefer to avoid a tower case.  For my office desk, however...

Of course, 1000 pounds is almost 1800USD, and while you gain many more configuration options, you also lose the built in software integration, so there are a few additional trade-offs.  I want one nonetheless!

[ScottMayo]

Have you looked at Zalman's fanless cases? They just released a new one, TNN 300, that looks like it performs pretty well Review. It's a full system for 1000 pounds and uses passive heatpipe cooling. A warning, the site is in the process of being slashdotted, so the response may be a bit slow.

Pretty box. Unfortunately, you're limited in the CPUs you can put in it - basically, nothing really fast. Diitto on the video card. That's the tradeoff. I think the Roku solution is a better path for audio needs, but this is a tempting box for good-enough gaming in the living room. Pity about the price, but heatpipe costs...

[EchiDna]

Scott, simple answer yes it can be done, but you eed to think a bit further out of the box - and either use a network, or put the box inside a cabinet somewhere or behind the wall, inside a cavity space etc... do you need to be able to see the computer for it to be working? not really as you can use a wireless access point to control it via PDA (this is what I do) and use a bluetooth keyboard and mouse for those gaming sessions...

I've got an admittedly simple system doing exactly as you suggest, and inclusive of the projector and hardware was WAY under US$10k - I play driving games with my logitech momo force steering wheel, arcade games with an X-arcade dual joystick controller - all on a 120 inch projection screen with surround sound. It's extremely immersive and far easier to get going than I thought was possible.

For pure audio and video, everything is on a remote server and the local HDD spins down after 5 minutes of no activity, making the system essentially silent from my listening position (about 12-15 feet fom the system itself)

You can do it! give it a go!!

[ScottMayo]

I've got an admittedly simple system doing exactly as you suggest, and inclusive of the projector and hardware was WAY under US$10k.

The $10k quote was for a custom enclosure that would give 70db of sound reduction for a single computer, while providing cooling. That's the price of a box, nothing else. It wasn't an idea I followed up on. Commercial products usually run about 30db down for $1,000 - I wanted something over ten times quieter; not surprisingly it runs to about 10 times as much.

Putting a computer in another room is fine for audio, because you can serve wave files over a network. The problem starts when you want 1024x768, 24 bit color, 100Hz refresh over a 35' cable which has to go through a soundproof wall. It can be done for under $10k, but it's messy and it's not something I'm going to try at the moment. I just got this room together and I don't want to take it apart.

But in another few years, solid state disks should get cheap enough to play with, and heat pipes should drop in price as everyone gets on the quiet PC bandwagon. Eventually I expect it's going to be possible to build a totally silent PC of arbitrary speed, that dumps heat into a bucket of ice water or a really big wall mounted radiator, without fans or pumps. That's what I'm waiting for. If the "quiet PC" progress of the last 5 years is any indication, good things are in store for the patient...

[EchiDna]

Where do you live Scott that is THAT quiet in terms of ambient noise floor? I can only dream of such a thing in my 14th floor condominium! A mere whisper is already in the order of 40-50 db, so IMHO a cabinet cutting sound by 30db ought to meet your requirements, especially if you can put it in the room just next to your listening area...

My HTPC is inside a glassware cabinet in the corner of our dining room (adjoining the listening area) and I can't hear it for love nor money from a few metres away. I'm running DVD files over the network all the time - it works to my requirements... even a 3-5 year old laptop can do all of this for you with a USB sound output - if you have one from work or whatever, rip an album or two with EAC, install foobar2k as a player and export the sound via ASIO drivers to your HIFI gear - this way you can still get to try 95% of the capabilities for no investment at all  

[ScottMayo]

Where do you live Scott that is THAT quiet in terms of ambient noise floor? I can only dream of such a thing in my 14th floor condominium!

I live in a relatively rural town with some amount of woods around. More to the point, my soundroom is largely underground, with doublewall, staggered stud, multiple sheetrock layers construction and a spring loaded ceiling and quite a lot of rockwool insulation and other absorption. If it's quiet outside (the windows that local code forced me to install are the weakest point), and I keep the air conditioning off, the loudest ambient noise source in the room is the hum from the subwoofer's internal amp. It's the only thing between me and silence, and I expect to replace the sub at some point. At the listening position, I estimate it's well under 15db. In that room, it's still enough to be irritating.  (In fairness, with music playing I can't pick it out, and and I can't convince myself that it *really* affects the music any.)

It wasn't easy to get to this point, though:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=19543&highlight=

A mere whisper is already in the order of 40-50 db, so IMHO a cabinet cutting sound by 30db ought to meet your requirements, especially if you can put it in the room just next to your listening area...

Whenever anyone uses "whisper" as a standard for acceptable noise, another audiophile's russian vaccum tube somewhere dies.    Ever been at a chamber music concert where someone nearby was whispering to a friend? You had to control your urge to kill, didn't you...

With an ambient floor noise below 20db (I don't have a sound meter accurate in this range so I can't yet quote the actual number), it is amazing how much more detail I can pick out of music. In good recordings, stuff happens right down to the limit of audiability. When I planned the sound room, my goal was only that my music not shake the rest of the house and the kid's playstation wouldn't interfere with my music - but what I got was a wonderful new window on the music itself. You can hear the touch of fingers on strings, you can pick out how quickly Norah Jones inhales. You can *picture* her inhaling. (Hm, better stop with that - my wife reads here sometimes).

Anyway, this is why I don't want to cut holes in my walls for cable runs at this point. Everytime time you take a drill to a 3-layer soundproof wall, another audiophile's six 9's pure copper speaker cable gets another tiny spot of oxidation. *noddle*