Capacitors for speakers

rbrb · « **on:** 22 Jul 2005, 05:53 am »

I'm attempting to update my speakers crossovers and want to replace the stock Bennic caps with the best I can buy. Does anyone have an opinion on which are reputed to be the best? Solen, DynamiCap, Hovland etc??

In electronics Blackgate seem to be excepted as the best sounding. Is there a cap designed for speakers that has the same reputation.

I seen a photo of a network from a Dynaudio speaker and it used Solen.

jeffreybehr · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 Jul 2005, 02:29 pm »

The best-sounding caps money can buy are Chris VenHaus's TFTFs (teflon film & tin foil), http://www.v-cap.com/ . However, they're VERY expensive, so I suggest a combination, from smallest to largest values, of the VH TFTFs, then maybe the Mundorf M-Cap Supreme Silver/Oil (at Madisound, http://www.madisound.com/mundorfcaps.html ), and then for the base cap if the value is larger than you want to buy in the M-Cap SOs, the Rel AudioCap or MultiCap metalized 'propylenes, from Michael Percy, http://www.percyaudio.com/Catalog.pdf.

Another great-sounding cap is the TRT DynamiCap, from Percy. These would be a great choice if you can buy the correct value without combining (expensive) caps.

On cap quality, you might read the comments of Mike Elliott, of Counterpoint and AltaVista fame, here http://www.altavistaaudio.com/caps.html .

I'll be partially recapping a pair of Eminent Technology 8s soon, 'partially' because I'll soon be actively biamping it. The 2 caps and one inductor that will be staying will this time be higher quality than I usually use. I guess I've decided I can afford some V-Cap teflons.

I expect you'll get a lot of advice on this. You just have to make a choice, and probably it won't be easy.

BTW, replacing the resistors will help too. The Mills noninductive wirewounds are quite good sounding and affordable, and consider the AlphaCore copper-foil inductors, too, both from Percy.

Good luck. I've recapped perhaps-dozens of speakers and every one sounded better after.

Which speaker(s)?

rbrb · « **Reply #2 on:** 23 Jul 2005, 01:51 am »

Which speakers? Don't laugh their Sony SSX70ED's. They are available in Europe and sold in Canada for one year. Unbelievable cabinet. Each 36" tower weighs 61 lbs. They sound surprisingly good. Most people can't believe they are Sony's when they here them.

I have thought about selling them a few times but everytime I hear them I change I mind. Modding them with the best quality parts I can find seems like the best route to go. After I finish the crossovers I'll consider replacing the drivers. Not sure I need to though. The cabinets are definately keepers.

The specs and photos are here under Marketing Specifications
http://esupport.sony.com/perl/model-documents.pl?mdl=SSX70ED&LOC=3

Thanks for the help, it points me in the right direction.

Bingenito · « **Reply #3 on:** 23 Jul 2005, 02:21 am »

I think Sonicaps will give you the most bang for the buck. Might also want to consider the following:

* Swap out the resistors for Mills since that is only a few bucks.
* Rewire the speakers with the VH Audio 12 gauge wire.

All of these components are priced right and will not cost more then the speakers

markC · « **Reply #4 on:** 23 Jul 2005, 01:29 pm »

I agree with Bingenito. Sonicaps are great value for the money. I've re-capped my speaks with them and am quite pleased with the results. As for changinging the drivers, that would probably be a disaster. The cabinet size, port diameter and length and the x-over design are all modeled around the drivers.

rbrb · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 Jul 2005, 08:20 pm »

Quote from: markC

I agree with Bingenito. Sonicaps are great value for the money. I've re-capped my speaks with them and am quite pleased with the results. As for changinging the drivers, that would probably be a disaster. The cabinet size, port diameter and length and the x-over design are all modeled around the drivers.

Point taken. The drivers seem of a high quaility anyway, kevlar cones, cast baskets, large motor structure.

jeffreybehr · « **Reply #6 on:** 24 Jul 2005, 06:09 pm »

"Which speakers? Don't laugh their (SIC) Sony SSX70ED's. "

I'm not laughing; I'm glad you love your speakers. Lots of us are NOT in that enviable position.

To add to the good info above...I'd say the priority of crossover-parts replacement is caps first, then resistors, then inductors. Also, altho I'm no GEA and do not claim to be able to hear the differences between, say, 2 similar-quality caps, I've found that the quality of parts in your system components is definitely cumulative in their affect on sound quality. Considering that the audio signal is traveling thru what may be a dozen caps from beginning to end, I'm surprised our systems sound as good as they do. Don't scrimp on parts quality in your crossover.

ohenry · « **Reply #7 on:** 24 Jul 2005, 08:32 pm »

Quote from: rbrb

Which speakers? Don't laugh their Sony SSX70ED's...

Those don't look anything like the Sony's I've seen.

Pretty cool find...

Ferdi · « **Reply #8 on:** 30 Jul 2005, 01:14 pm »

Hi rbrb, on reading your question, I remembered the following from a fellow dutchman:

http://home.hetnet.nl/~geenius/

If you go to cap test from the front page there are some ideas.

Groeten,

Ferdi

Danberg · « **Reply #9 on:** 31 Jul 2005, 01:37 am »

Never attempted to mod any of my equipment, but working on my existing speakers seems like it would be interesting & fun.

Being new at this, I'll start with the capacitors, as it appears it will allow me to hear the most obvious results of my effort..

However, reading bits & pieces over the years about capacitors, I recall seeing that the values stated on them do not necessarily accurately represent their value.

Keeping this in mind, do I need to purchase a capacitor meter to find out the exact value of the capicitors I am taking out of my crosover? Also, use that same meter to determine the capacitance of the new cap I am putting in?

If a meter is necessary, any ideas on where to purchase? aproximate cost?

rbrb · « **Reply #10 on:** 1 Aug 2005, 08:47 pm »

Thanks everyone for the comments and help. This really gives me some good info to make a informed decision on the route to take.

ohenry and jefferybehr I purchased the speakers when I was employed by Sony and got a amazing deal on them. I'll just say that the the $800 (CDN) retail price for each speaker that they sold for at the time they were a real bargain. Having worked in the retail electronic industry I had access to many brands and there was not much that compared at the price. The price I paid made them even more attractive. When we first heard rumors about them we were told that they were going to be sold at a loss with very limited distribution. A gift for the Sony faithfull.

It's quite exciting to now take them to the next level. I have six of them for a 6.1 system. Once I get my front L/R pair completed I will mod the other four.

rbrb · « **Reply #11 on:** 1 Aug 2005, 09:49 pm »

Looking at my crossovers the resistors are also from Bennic. They are cement type wirewound. The photos that I've seen of the Mills are of a different type of construction. Will they work?? Forgive my ignorance on the subject.

JoshK · « **Reply #12 on:** 1 Aug 2005, 10:51 pm »

Quote from: jeffreybehr

The best-sounding caps money can buy are Chris VenHaus's TFTFs (teflon film & tin foil), http://www.v-cap.com/ . However, they're VERY expensive, so I suggest a combination, from smallest to largest values, of the VH TFTFs, then maybe the Mundorf M-Cap Supreme Silver/Oil (at Madisound, http://www.madisound.com/mundorfcaps.html ), and then for the base cap if the value is larger than you want to buy in the M-Cap SOs, the Rel AudioCap or MultiCap metalized 'propylenes, from Michael Percy, http://www.percyaud ...

In what application have you compared all of these?

JoshK · « **Reply #13 on:** 1 Aug 2005, 10:53 pm »

Quote from: rbrb

Looking at my crossovers the resistors are also from Bennic. They are cement type wirewound. The photos that I've seen of the Mills are of a different type of construction. Will they work?? Forgive my ignorance on the subject.

From all that I have read from those I trust, I wouldn't worry too much about the resistors in your speaks. Many swear they can hear the difference but all have failed in blind A/B to prove it. Capacitors OTOH are a little more apparent, so I would put more of the $$ into upgrading those and do the resistors last if at all.

brj · « **Reply #14 on:** 1 Aug 2005, 11:06 pm »

Quote from: JoshK

From all that I have read from those I trust, I wouldn't worry too much about the resistors in your speaks. Many swear they can hear the difference but all have failed in blind A/B to prove it. Capacitors OTOH are a little more apparent, so I would put more of the $$ into upgrading those and do the resistors last if at all.

Any similar comments for inductors?

jeffreybehr · « **Reply #15 on:** 1 Aug 2005, 11:52 pm »

To Josh and brj:
1. I haven't directly compared ALL these caps in anything. I've done many-dozens of cap replacements over 25 years, and the opinions I posted are based on my own observations and, in the case of the VH TFTFs, on reading lots of opinions of those who have heard them.
2. I continue to learn and my opinions continue to evolve. For instance, I thought for a while that the NorthCreek Harmony 0.22- and 1/625 caps were really good stand-alone and bypass caps for the money...IOW, great values. I now have found that they're softer, less detailed, than I originally thought, and I'll no longer be recommending them.
3. The TRT DynamiCaps continue to earn VERY-positive comments by those I know who use them; I still believe they're 5-star caps, about as good as money can buy.
4. My own experiences and comments by others continue to support my opinions that the SCR 'propylenes (Solens and Axons) are very good values and especially useful in high-voltage powersupplies while being a little edgy in coupling situations, and that the various film caps by Reliable continue to be at least good (3 stars) and better than that in the MultiCap versions. That said, the metallized caps are still a little soft but never harsh sounding.
5. I repeat my ealier comment--that of the 3 'passive' components in crossovers, caps are most audible and chokes least audible. Brj, I would replace the the sand resistors with Mills noninductive wirewounds from Percy. I wouldn't replace chokes unless you've spent the time and money to replace all the caps with 5-star versions. As long as you're still in the 'value' mode, that is, using less-than-5-star-quality caps--and almost all of us are in most of our projects--and as long as these chokes ARE NOT iron-core and in the midrange or treble, I wouldn't replace them. If a choke is iron-core and in the midrange or tweeter part of the circuit, I would indeed replace it, and if it's in series with the signal, I'd use the Solo/Alpha-Core copper-foil versions from Percy. If that iron-core parallels a driver, I'd use NorthCreek's.

I'm reredoing the crossover in my Eminent Technology LFT-12. Its crossover has 2 series networks including a 3.3- and a 51uF cap. The 1st time I used various film caps, most of which I already had, and one big Solen that I bought. This time I'm using an M-Cap Supreme Silver/Oil for the 3.3 and a 50/100 Rel. metallized AudioCap, both bypassed with 0.068/600 VH TFTFs. I'll be recapping the continuing parts of a pair of ET8s soon with M-Cap Supreme and VH TFTF caps (and a pair of 1.3mH, 12g., Solo-brand, copper-foil inductors, too). I do indeed put my money where my opinions point.

JoshK · « **Reply #16 on:** 2 Aug 2005, 12:52 am »

I don't profess to have great knowledge in comparing caps, I have tried some, but only in a few situations. I think this is one of those things that room can dwarf, so I am hesitant to make suggestions without knowing or hearing the system.

I think when designing a xo from the ground up, caps matter most, inductors second and resistors last. This is mostly due to the reactive nature of the components, in order to acheive what one wants in terms of slope, etc. However, inductors may very well be rarely inaudible all else being equal. Larger gauge inductors have lower DCR though.

I have seen info on how skin affect of ribbon inductors only affects freq's so high up that both scientifically and empirically it is an inaudible affect. So all the Goertz inductor fans take note.

I hate the idea of shelling out mega bucks for caps. Thus I have done some reading from those I trust, who are both scientific in nature but test empirically their results. I have no data on the TRTs, however I have mixed results with the Audiocap Thetas. Many think they are crud. I have heard, myself, a few of the SonicCap IIs and Auricaps. I would only offer my empirical results where I have tried them A/B in the same application as I find application dwarves brand.

For instance, I would not use film & foil caps in an AC PSU. Film & Foil is not self healing so it would be a mistake to use them in this application. We have found that Auricaps work nicely in this application. I have yet to try my beloved SoniCaps in this application, which I find to be more neutral than many audiophile taughted brands.

mgalusha · « **Reply #17 on:** 2 Aug 2005, 02:37 pm »

I'm with Josh, the application seems to drive which cap works best. I too have spent absurd amounts of money on various high end caps and in the end the only sure fire way to know what is best in a particular situation is to try various combinations.

Auricaps for example, seem to work better when they are biased with a fair amount of DC, such as a coupling cap in a power amp.

I am also very fond of a Jensen pure copper foil in oil bypassed with a Sonicap Platinum teflon film/foil. This is an exceptional combination when used for the output caps in a tube line stage.

I haven't toyed with cap replacement in speakers much. I did replace some 10uF electrolytics with some polyprop film/foils some years ago and that was a significant improvement but I suspect most any good film cap would have been an improvement over the 'lytics.

I haven't tried the V-Caps yet but given the teflon film construction I suspect they are similar to the Sonicap platinums. But of course I could be dead wrong and this is simply speculation.

I have used the Reliable TFT's and in the appliction I used them for they seemed to be amazingly transparent. I'm not a big fan of the Reliable multicaps, I've tried them in several projects and have not been satisfied with the results. I'm sure in some applications they are fine but I haven't had good luck with them.

It all (IMO) comes back to empirical testing. Since this hobby is so subjective even the best measuring caps may not sound *right* in a particular circuit.