[ScottMayo]

The electrical conductivityof Aluminum is basically best case 62% that of Cu. Almost 40% worse.

Right, but for a length of speaker wire, it hardly matters. It's milliohms. I'm not recommending aluminum, it's just that I don't think it can do noticable harm in most cases.

No vendors of Cu/Al alloy magnet wire could be found via internet search.

Not sure how that got started. Magnet wire is either aluminum or copper, and apparently Al has gotten popular because of Cu brittleness concerns. You generally don't want to put Al and Cu in contact, let alone mix them in a wire.

[TheChairGuy]

TweekGeek Mike
I have the Alpha-Core MI-2 10ga. cable....it's the best I've heard so far.  I have it out to be cryo'ed today to see if can improve.

I find the HF extension to be very nice (nipping the Mohawk CAT6 that Mark Hampton of ZCable turned me on to) and the rest to be quite satisfactory.  In fact, it's the only speaker cable that sounded like a real step in the positive direction overall. The rest have been sideways moves ups and downs.


_scotty_
The goddarned thing is I actually understood about 80% of the stuff you just wrote....friggin' impressive for a Business/Marketing major

I had thought, from the deepest recesses of my elementary science classes, that aluminum was a piss poor conductor...not terribly suitable for a good transmission line.

I did just note that Paul Speltz Anti-Cables are made of 12ga continuous cast, oxygen free copper...perhaps this is why the reaction to it has been very positive by many.  It may well be a type of magnet wire that is a little better for our needs as audiophiles.  No doubt, it's available somewhere, 'cause he's too small fry to have it made up special for his needs.  

Well, he done did good sourcing that version, I think.

I'll follow your plethora of links to find something similar (or as good) I hope...thanks.

hmmm Scotty, you wouldn't be a tomb-digger or work at a car wash, would ya'? Methinks not....

[_scotty_]

Actually the power transmission lines over our head are almost exclusively
Al in construction it is 1.6x bigger than the equivalent Cu would but it is still much lighter than copper which is essential in long spans between transmission towers.
Scotty

[Occam]

Cable theory 101,.....
The net practical effect from an audio standpoint of uncompensated inductance is the loss of Dynamics and Bass and High frequency response compared to a cable in which the inductance present has been accounted for by a geometery which by virtue of conductor spacing adds a necessary component of capcitance to the equation. Recall a series inductor is used to keep high frequencies out of a woofer.
.....

Scotty - I don't follow how an 'uncompensated inductance' would lead to a loss of 'Dynamics and Bass', nor do I understand how adding a 'necessay component of capacitance to the equation' would help. Perhaps you could show us that equation, and show us how much inductance would limit bass. I do see how very, very large amounts of inductance could limit hf response, but I'm unsure if the 'uncompensated inductance' in a Speltz Anti-Cable or Tara TFA II would be of sufficient magnitude to do so. Actually, I don't understand this uncompensated/compensating thingamajig at all.   Would you explain?

You'll have to forgive me, as I obviously lack your intuitive understanding of the situation, and have to rely on mundane highschool algebra. Would you please give us a practical example and show us the numbers? Lets assume a 4 Ohm speaker, which would show greater effects from inductance than a higher impedance speaker. How much inductance would lower the frequency response at 20kz by .5db? How much inductance would constrain bass dynamics, and to what extent?

Making twisted pair out of the 12Ga. magnet wire may yield better results than just laying them on the floor, a star quad geometry may be even better still but it will also be very stiff.

In what way woud they be better? What was wrong with them in the first place?


TIA,
Occam

[ctviggen]

This would be a complex calculation.  The site he posted shows a cable system as being a series of lumped inductors in series and capacitors in parallel.  Some people suggest that such inductors and capacitors vary with frequency.  The easiest thing to do would be to take a particular cable and measure its inductance, capacitance, and resistance at certain frequencies.  Then you would have the equivalent of an RLC circuit and could estimate what a filter using those values would do.  I'd probably take me all weekend or even longer to figure out how to get that far.

[ScottMayo]

This would be a complex calculation.  The site he posted shows a cable system as being a series of lumped inductors in series and capacitors in parallel.  Some people suggest that such inductors and capacitors vary with frequency.  The easiest thing to do would be to take a particular cable and measure its inductance, capacitance, and resistance at certain frequencies.  Then you would have the equivalent of an RLC circuit and could estimate what a filter using those values would do.  I'd probably take me all weekend or even longer to figure out how to get that far.

Doing the actual calculations might, but I think the point is that an order of magnitude calculation would show that for just about everyone on planet Earth, the effect is too small to be heard. (I still think it's possible that for just the right combination of amp, speaker and ear, a cable can make a difference. I also believe that there's a nonzero probability of finding a pink and green penguin somewhere on planet Earth, so take it for what it is worth.)

This leads directly to the "do you believe in cables, fairy godmothers, santa claus or honest congressmen" debate, and having just been through it over a fuse, I'm guessing this won't go any better. If we can't even agree on a way to test to see if anything has changed in a system, it's hard to argue about what wire does.  

This isn't to say that esoteric cables can't change a system's sound. I remember a review of expensive cables (in terms of their properties, it wasn't a listening test) that shows that they were all pretty much identical - except one that had wildly, unexpectedly high inductance and resistance. They plugged that one in, and yes it altered the sound. So a cable can make a difference if you pay enough to the right manufacturer; that is, it's possible to buy a fixed tone control that resembles a wire.

[Steve]

So you finally offer an article.  Here is the source.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=6fd32089bfa4a352915fd825abcc8af0&f=11

Top Two "sticky" strings. Link is provided from there.

[Occam]

ctviggen (Bob),

I'm certainly not making the argument that cables with equivalent  parameters cannot sound subjectively different, but I do have a keen sense of when someone is blowing smoke up my arse (nor does assuming that they're also blowing smoke up their own arse, change anything). Anyone with any applied analytic background knows to do a first order approximantion first. And as in capacitors, viral coefficiets can be strong influences, in the radio frequency ranges, but this is not overly germane in the audio range.
My goodness, is it that difficult to do a square root calculation required to calculate a pole frequency and Q for a series inductance and shunt capacitance? Isn't it a given that a star-quad with equivalent twists and same materiels has about half the inductance and 1.5x the capacitance as a twisted pair? This is not rocket science. If you go to audioholics.com (heaven forgive me!) its not too difficult to pull some cap and inductance measures vs. frequency. And its also obvious that the analysis applied to the Spetz anti-cables and Tara TFA is the same as one would apply to zip-cord.

And it shouldn't be necessary to say any of this, if one simply realizes (as a rough first order appoximation) that 2 x squat is still squat. (Scott said this far more eloquently   )

Mellifluous horseshit is still.... horseshit;
or maybe Cable Theory for Poets.

[_scotty_]

First I apologize for using the words "cable theory 101" and the implication
that any scientific theory exists that explains what is heard when listening to a stereo system. The post has been edited.  No criticism of the sonic merits of either of the Speltz Anti-Cable or Tara TFA II is intended.   My suggestion that one might try making a twisted pair out of 12Ga.
magnet wire was not intended to imply that there is anything wrong with the sound of the untwisted  pair but I would hope that a more constant impedance per foot and the added capacitance would generate an observable change. This difference might be preferable to some listeners and not to others.  It is a relatively simple experiment.  
I regret that I cannot reduce the mathematical  variables governing the electrical performance of a cable to a simple theory that will predict the outcome when the cables are used in a system and a subjective value judgement is arrived at by the listener.  
I regret  that I cannot  defend my position with a "mathematical proof", as you requested, that a more constant impedance per foot or added capacitance per foot will be sonically preferable to the lack thereof.           I have no intuitive grasp of why a cable with given RCL parameters and characteristic impedance may sound the way it does.  
All I have to fall back on is my experience gained through empirically
testing DIY cable designs. My experience has taught me that most of the time a constant impedance per foot is desirable  and varying the capacitance per foot if possible until the best results from a listening standpoint are achieved is one way reaching the goal of a good sounding
cable.  YMMV
A question for ScottMayo. What is the rate of twist on your 8Ga. cables
and why did you decide on this  wire gauge with its particular mix of stranding, silverplated copper and teflon insulation.
Question for Occam. What cabling are you using and why it rather than
something else. Also what experiences have lead you to listen the particular mix of cabling and associated equipement that you currently
enjoy.
scotty

[TheChairGuy]

So, I received the 12ga. cryo'ed magnet wire from CryoParts a couple weeks back and have listened to them dutifully for that period. I have to say that larger gauge is NOT the direction to go with magnet wire....it magnifies most of it's shortcomings ('bladdy' presentation was described to me by another AC'er here).  It's certainly allright, it's better than THHN 6ga, but smaller gauge magnet wire seems to present better detail retrieval.

I don't know if Paul Speltz's much loved Anti-Cables are different (I think the website mentions oxygen free) quality or construction than these 12ga tested (looks to be the same red color)...but the 13ga 'Bubbawire' in my estimation, is superior.

I have no idea of the impact that cryo made on this wire...as the previous magnet wire was 13ga, vs. the 12ga that these are.

Mapleshade reportedly uses several smaller gauges of magnet wire, twisted, in their Helix design...perhaps that's the direction to go.  Pierre is an interesting guy....

[ScottMayo]

A question for ScottMayo. What is the rate of twist on your 8Ga. cables
and why did you decide on this wire gauge with its particular mix of stranding, silverplated copper and teflon insulation.

I have about 3 full twists in about 12' of run - as a result of how I laid the wire, not because deliberate design. Twists are useful for rejecting interference, but that's of no concern in my room.

8ga was the thickest I felt I could manage easily in the binding posts I use, and I picked stranded because silver coated stranded is easier to find than solid, and a lot more manageable. I'd have been ok with solid copper; electrons don't seem to care too much. I chose silver plate because silver tarnish is less of a problem, electrically, than copper oxide, so I won't have to fuss with cleaning the ends as often, and I had no regard whatsoever for the type of insulation because in speaker wire, I've never once known it to matter, and no one's ever shown me any test data that made me think otherwise.

It's a milspec wire and I already knew it was happy to handle frequencies in the Ghz range and voltage in the kV range, with tough insulation and the ability to stay stable in temprature extremes that I should never reach in my soundroom. It's puppy proof, too. Good enough for radar transmitters means good enough for me, was my motto.  

It was admittedly too expensive (over 3$ a foot for 2 conductors!), but it answered my desire for silver coating, and the insulation was a pretty shade of red, and I figured I could afford one piece of audio jewelry.  

[truant]

I just purchased Paul Speltz's Anti-Cables last week for $80 and that included the banana plug upgrade costing an additional $40. 4 ft of very thin beautiful red wire that sounds like nothing I've ever had in my system. I've used Harmonic Technology, TMC, Audioquest and Bolder cables and none of these have come close to the transparency, detail and dynamics of the Anti-Cables. Last night listening to cds with my girlfriend it was difficult to carry on any kind of conversation the music was so present in the room. I was going to give her my TMCs for free but now that she's heard and seen the Anti-Cables I don't think that is going to fly. I'll have to sell them to someone who has not tried the Anti-Cables. Obviously highly recommended at any price.

[beatdownvictim]

hmm, *caution to all, i don't know wtf i'm talking about, so here's some conjecture for you all to help me think about*

There's some sites that were posted that sold Flat magnet wire, so this got me thinking.  Since a lot of people were praising copper foil as an excellent speaker cable, couldn't one just take some flat magnet wire, encase it in teflon tape, and use it as a "foil" type speaker cable?  Hell, i have education about this stuff, but hell, if copper magnet wire is better than plain jane copper, but plain jane copper is better than magnet, then wouldn't foil magnet copper be better?

For all those that read that and wanted to kick me for writing something that's not understandable, here's what i meant to say

If:  Stranded regular copper < Solid core magnet copper wire
and Solid core magnet copper wire < regular copper foil
wouldn't regular copper foil < Flat copper magnet wire?

Flat Copper magnet wire > Regular copper foil > solid core magnet copper wire > Standed regular copper  <--- even more concise

Regards,

your bdv

[Nick B]

truant     since anticables only makes s/c's, what do you use for i/c's? i have used jps i/c's and s/c's the last 5-6 years. don't really like to mix brands

[_scotty_]

beatdownvictim,the magnet wire, flat or round is already insulated.
All you have to do is strip the insulation and terminate the flat wire with a spade or other connector or your choice.
Scotty

[beatdownvictim]

beatdownvictim,the magnet wire, flat or round is already insulated.
All you have to do is strip the insulation and terminate the flat wire with a spade or other connector or your choice.
Scotty

in my moment of temporary stupidity, i failed to realize this.  Kind regards,

Carson (the drunk audiophile)

[hershey 22]

truant     since anticables only makes s/c's, what do you use for i/c's? i have used jps i/c's and s/c's the last 5-6 years. don't really like to mix brands

Nick,

Paul is now making interconnects and has been for several months.  You can call Judy for pricing but I think they start at about $100.  Thinking about some myself.  

[Nick B]

Thanks Hershey       Paul needs to update his website

[truant]

Nick B,
  I currently have VH Audio Pulsars in my system. The entry level versions. They've been through a couple of changes in speaker cables and I'm thinking that it may be time to move on to something else. The anticables are easily the most revealing speaker cables I've used. I've been meaning to inquire whether Paul & Judy were going to make interconnects...glad to hear that that may be the case. I also have two LAT power cables running to my monoblocks and an Element Red Storm to my cdp which will eventually be upgraded to an LAT as well.