[TheChairGuy]

Oh, sorry hershey...I don't know if coating/dielectric matters on magnet wire.  I think part of the allure is that it is enamel, and very thin so there is less absorption and less smearing as a result.

Mine is red fyi...don't know if the gauges are color coded that way (like, is all 13ga red color?) or if it's just manufacturer preference.

[beatdownvictim]

Hello, I am a cheapskate, and i dont know what the heck to do, I haven't any access locally to 13 gauge magnet wire, soooooooooooo here's what's going through my mind.

I'm thinking about making multi stranded Magnet wire (2 strands of 30 gauge twisted, that are yet again with a single strand of 26 gauge, AND possibly yet another strand of 20 gauge) Is this a horribly crappy way of grenading my gear?  I made 4 of these wires, one for each + and - in the speaker terminal (2 wires coming out of each speaker into the amplifier) would it work better if i twisted these wires? [i cant braid ].   So i guess, would multi strands of magnet wire work well.  

Also, how should i terminate it? run it bare or not?

Other people on AA have been talking about how low efficiency speakers need more strands of magnet wire to be optimal.  Thoughts and opinions?

Thanks for hearing me out!

Thanks all

[_scotty_]

beatdownvictim, search out a electric motor repair shop in your area.
They should be willing to to sell you the magnet wire you want. Here are two sources of 14ga magnet wire on the web which could be doubled up for lower resistance.
http://www.gatewayelex.com/Magnet_Wire.htm
http://www.oselectronics.com/ose_p46.htm
Good luck with your project. Scotty

[jeffreybehr]

beatdownvictim, your 4-pairs cable will be only about 19.8g., rather high in resistance.  If you're driving only a tweeter I suppose it'd be OK.  You obviously believe in what Audioquest calls the spread-spectrum concept, as do I, so your idea of using pairs of different gages is good.  BUT...if you're driving MR and/or bass, I'd build something significantly bigger.

For instance, pairs of 22-, 20-, and 18g. would be 15g..  Add a 16g. pair to that and the cable turns into c. 12.5g., and maybe that's what I'd do for a full-range cable.

It all ought to be twisted--spiraled--together to reduce inductance.

These calculations are based on an AWG chart I got from the 'net somewhere and copied into an Excel speadsheet; e-mail me at jeffreybehr(at)cox(dot)net and I'll e-mail you--and anyone else who wants one--a copy.  Calculating the result of paralleling resistances (wires in this case) I do here-- http://www.1728.com/resistrs.htm .

[beatdownvictim]

Dudes/Dudettes, I've completed my wires, 2- 30 gauges, 1- 26 gauge, 1- 20 gauge, and 1- 16 gauge.

The 30 gauge wires, i twisted together, then twisted that 30 gauge pair onto the 26 gauge, after that, i took the 20 gauge, twisted the 30-30-26 around the 20, then twisted the 30-30-26-20 to the 16 gauge wire.  Uh, mang, i did something right, it sounds absolutely splendid!  I really enjoy these wires, i'll probably be making some more.  Thanks for the encouragement guys.  Way easier to do than the cat 5 variants and they sound so much better! it's disgusting!

[TheChairGuy]

beatdownvictim,

The gauges you mention, these were all magnet wire?

Where did you end up finding all those various gauges? In one place?

Thx.

[beatdownvictim]

TCG, they're all magnet wire, and i found the 30/26 in the RS package, while i found the 16 and 20 gauges at a local store.  I'm quite happy with the sound of the wires, next up, cryo'ed 12 gauge magnet wire!  i'll probably try different combinations of gauges with what i have, and i'll report to you guys my findings.

[TheChairGuy]

beatdownvictim and anybody else that cares...

Lee over at www.Cryo-Parts.com has 12ga cryo'ed magnet wire and as I was buying something else from him I took 20-odd feet of it for $0.50 foot.

I just clipped the 5.5' lengths and scraped the ends now...and have inserted their perky little ends in to their respective places in the JVC and Maggies.

It's a little different red (more of a true red) vs. the 13ga more burgundy red...so maybe all the wire gauges are color coded after all.  Whatever....maybe I'm the only one that cares about that stuff.  

I found the 13ga needed break-in time (just overnite or maybe it was only a few hours) to dial in the fullness.  So, I'll let it cook a fortnight and see.

Yep, $11 of 12ga cryo'ed magnet wire - the same gauge as the Paul Speltz Anti-Cables (in a jacket/dialectric that looks to be about the same color)

[ScottMayo]

It's a little different red (more of a true red) vs. the 13ga more burgundy red...so maybe all the wire gauges are color coded after all.  Whatever....maybe  ...

Keep in mind that a lot of magnet wire is aluminum, not copper. That might be what the color code indicates. Aluminum is a great choice for electromagnets, because electromagnets can produce heat and copper tends to get brittle when repeatedly heated, while alunimun hangs tough. Aluminum has a higher resistance than copper, so add an extra gauge's worth if wire for speakers.

Also keep in mind that magnet wire is ideal for generating a nice dense magnetic field - that's what it is for. Bends and turns in the wire are apt to look like a coil to the amp, ie., add inductance. True of any wire, just more pronounced here.

In effect, using a wire with extra resistance and inductance is sort of like doing a (very minor) mod on your speaker crossover. Except every time you move the wires, the mod changes a little.  

[TheChairGuy]

Hey Scott,

Thanks for the interesting technical (and highly digestible ) tidbits.....I had no idea that magnet wire was partly aluminum.  I suppose that means, among other parameters, greater conductivity isn't the only thing to focus in on (given that so many seem pleased with the Anti-Cables these days).

I think 12ga is as large as magnet wire gets....so I think it's now optimized insofar as availability goes.

[ScottMayo]

Hey Scott,

Thanks for the interesting technical (and highly digestible ) tidbits.....I had no idea that magnet wire was partly aluminum.  I suppose that means, among other parameters, greater conductivity isn't the only thing to focus in on (given that so many seem pleased with the Anti-Cables these days).

The difference between copper's conduction and aluminium isn't much, and I suspect it would take a very sensitive amp/speaker paring to be able to hear it at all.

Inductance is a more interesting point. Inductance in series with a speaker limits bass, and passes (but might change the waveform of) high frequencies. A tiny bit isn't bad - it cancels the natural parallel capactance of wire. In fact if I remember, the last release of Bryston amps contain a minimial inductor (a single loop of wire!) in the output path, to help cancel speaker cable effect. (This surely qualifies as the world's most nit-picky electrical tweak.) Too much, though, is bad. And randomly kinked wire forms a random inductor.

I use "bad" loosely. A dark system could benefit from a little inductance in the right place, and an amp that's being pushed too close to the edge might appreciate a little extra resistance in the speaker wire. A speaker that isn't doing low frequency work isn't going to react to inductance either way.  Given how small these effects are likely to be and how complex it is to apply them to any particular amp and speaker, I always recommend people get the flattest, most neutral stuff they can find at a sane price - it's one less circus to go through when changing gear.

Silver plated milspec, 8 ga. Not too pricey, made to handle an absurdly wide range of frequencies under any conditions at extreme voltages, corrosion proof, sturdy and toddler and puppy resistant. Bare the ends, screw it in tight (retighten it the next day - copper compresses) and never fret again.  

[Steve]

Yes, it is pretty interesting, like Scott indicates.

One can tune the sound somewhat by the reactance and guage of the wire (for typical speakers). (There are technical reasons.)

I have found there seems to be an optimum guage, depending on the system. The larger the overall guage, the fuller the lower mid/upper bass becomes until it actually gets muddy sounding. Too thin and the sound can become lean.

I tune my system so the upper bass isn't muddy, the sound is clean in the mids and lower. This won't necessarily cure the highs of harshness, if there is some present.

[TheChairGuy]

Silver plated milspec, 8 ga. Not too pricey, made to handle an absurdly wide range of frequencies under any conditions at extreme voltages, corrosion proof, sturdy and toddler and puppy resistant. Bare the ends, screw it in tight (retighten it the next day - copper compresses) and never fret again.

Heck, I'll give that a shot, too, if it's cheap.  If I forget to put my 'Depends' on, I leak a little  

Do you remember where you got it and is anymore left for moi  

[JoshK]

I agree with Scott & Steve and also believe things like cables are rarely very portable.  Meaning, just because someone writes up a review that cable A is better than cable B, doesn't mean it will be for you or even will likely be the same for you.  It is a highly dependent variable.  

Cable manufacturers by design have to go for the greatest common denominator, but are you like the GSD?

[JoshK]

Silver plated milspec, 8 ga. Not too pricey, made to handle an absurdly wide range of frequencies under any conditions at extreme voltages, corrosion proof, sturdy and toddler and puppy resistant. Bare the ends, screw it in tight (retighten it the next day - copper compresses) and never fret again.

Heck, I'll give that a shot, too, if it's cheap.  If I forget to put my 'Depends' on, I leak a little  

Do you remember where you got it and is anymore left for moi  

Apex Jr sells silver plated copper in various gauges.  Try it in a star quad (twisted 4 wires) config.

[TheChairGuy]

Cable manufacturers by design have to go for the greatest common denominator, but are you like the GSD?

Allright Josh, I was pretty okay in Math in an age just before fax machines...what's a 'GSD'?  

[JoshK]

GCD sorry....

[ScottMayo]

Silver plated milspec, 8 ga. Not too pricey, made to handle an absurdly wide range of frequencies under any conditions at extreme voltages, corrosion proof, sturdy and toddler and puppy resistant. Bare the ends, screw it in tight (retighten it the next day - copper compresses) and never fret again.

Heck, I'll give that a shot, too, if it's cheap. ... Do you remember where you got it and is anymore left for moi  

I give it out for free with some speaker sales. I won't be naming my suppliers, but as a hint, Goggle " mil spec teflon ee silver hookup copper " without the quotes and start picking out vendors. I like the EE type because the insulation is thicker and very tough, and I don't believe that's a drawback in short runs of speaker cable. The ET variation would work just as well and has a much thinner dielectic.

It's a stiff wire at 8ga. Realistically, 12ga will do for most purposes and that's not as stiff. I like the stiffness; I know it's not going to get tied in knots by overly inquisitive cats.

It's not dirt cheap. But a set will last a lifetime and won't be sensitive to amp and speaker changes, and if you decide to run 1 kV of gigahertz range radar signals over it, it will happily handle that, too. Note that most of the resellers of this stuff mock audiophiles, who "think they can hear a difference with this wire". If the seller gets nosy (and some will), just tell them "You can't discuss the project." They are very used to that, since they mostly sell to the military.

[cryotweaks]

I've been playing around with copper foil inductors, and have had some interesting results making speaker cables out of the 14 awg variety (still working on a 12 awg version).

A single .47 mh inductor will give you enough to make at least a 5 foot pair of cables.  I made a 5 foot pair and have plenty left over.

You can get Alphacore inductors from GR Research, get some 2" wide adhesive backed teflon tape (for the 14 awg cable) from mcmaster.com (search "teflon tape")

It takes a little effort to make these, but they sound darn good.  Not the last word in HF extension, but midrange layering and soundstage are excellent!

[_scotty_]

Post edited to remove implied BS.The following statements reflect my own personal experiences with cable design and have no mathematical proof as their basis. My knowledge of the sonic impact of the following statments was gained through direct experimental testing and represents empirical knowledge only. Believe this at your own risk YMMV.  My own Cable theory 101, the presence of inductance in a conductor resists the change of state of  current flowing in a conductor. An audio signal is Mostly
AC in nature with a DC component.  Cables for an audio application appear to perform best when RCL components are balanced to minimise the impact of uncompensated capacitance and inductance parameters. A pair of magnet wires laying on the floor with near random geometry in respect to the spacing between the conductors has no compensation for the  inductance present in the wires.  
The net practical effect from an audio standpoint of uncompensated inductance is the loss of Dynamics and Bass and High frequency response compared to a cable in which
the inductance present has been accounted for by a geometery which by virtue of conductor spacing adds a necessary component of capcitance
to the design.  Recall a series inductor is used to keep high frequencies
out of a woofer.  In the Bryston amp the inductance of the single loop of wire adds a high frequency pole to the output stage and may help with stability and overshoot with some loudspeakers and speakerwire combinations.  My apologies for any appearance of BS.  I know what I have heard.

Making twisted pair out of the 12Ga. magnet wire may yield better results than just laying them on the floor, a star quad geometry may be even better still  but it will also be very stiff. YMMV

The electrical conductivityof Aluminum is basically best case 62% that of Cu. Almost 40% worse.
 See foot note 1

No vendors of Cu/Al alloy magnet wire could be found via internet search.
A listing of the conductivity of various copper alloys including those with Al
shows a conductivity of only 10 to 20% that of pure copper sugesting that
a Cu/Al alloy wire would be a poor choice on a conductivity basis to use in an electrical transmission application.
See foot note 2

Source for up to 8Ga magnet wire, if you want to build big solid core cable.
http://www.planetengineers.com/default.asp?cat=Wire%2C+Magnet

Source for ribbon copper magnet wire and Al magnet wire
http://www.hmwire.com/

Discussion of RCL factors and their impact on signals in wire,a good basic explanation. http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/129012.html

Foot notes
1  http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article116.htm
2 http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article79.htm
Sidebars:  Aluminum foil magnet wire aerospace applcations.
http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article118.htm
Dielectricity and Capacitance
http://www.borderlands.com/archives/arch/capacit.htm
Distributed Parameters in transmission lines
http://cnx.rice.edu/content/m11373/latest/
Scotty