to buy or Not To buy,that is the question?

ABEX · « **on:** 10 Apr 2003, 03:03 am »

I am in the process of getting Modified NEAR M50's and I will have the ability to use Vertical amping.Lately I have been confronted with the problem of what would be the most cost effective solution .

I was told that these new amps would be coming to market and they might fit the bill.They have enough power and are inexpensive.I could buy a set now and if they sound good then I could just get another 2 sets.The thing is I can get a set for $400 now

,but if I wait I would have to pay $600 for them.

I asked questions about the signature of the amps because I am wary of getting anything that would be Dry or veiling of vocal info,something that I cannot live with.All feedback has been positive.I have a modified B&K ST-202 which has no vieling that I like,but I will want to Vertical amp these new speakers and use monoblocks of the same Manf..

One of the things the nOrh site is that they might have a similar signature to Mike Barnes Berning amps which are no slouches when it comes to good amplification.

Would you take the chance of getting these amps now to save $200.At the following page at the bottom there is a pic of the new LeAmpII's and info relating to the design(it's not the ACA 2b ,but the pic above it).

http://www.norh.com/news.html

TIA,ABEX

Thump553 · « **Reply #1 on:** 11 Apr 2003, 06:45 pm »

What feedback is there on these? Seem very interesting but a brand new product. Buy now and you get the risk/rewards of an early adopter.

I'm guessing they are not manufactured by IRD, like the first Le Amp was, because there is no mention of them there.

Hantra · « **Reply #2 on:** 11 Apr 2003, 06:54 pm »

Quote

Would you take the chance of getting these amps now to save $200.

Me? No. I almost took the plunge, and bought the LeAmps when they first became available. Purely based on hype I was going to buy them b/c they weren't that much. I decided to go a different route, but a friend of mine did get them early. After listening to them, I was very disappointed. I suppose my expectations were way too high b/c of the hype.

But at the same time, I liked my Arcam receiver better than the LeAmps. I am not the only one who thinks so.

Good luck whatever you decide to do though. . .

B

Bwanagreg · « **Reply #3 on:** 11 Apr 2003, 07:32 pm »

I'll second Hanrta's opinion. I was an early adopter of the original Le Amps. I can't complain too much because of the price, but I don't like them (they sit in my closet as spares). I would say that dry and veiled is a good characterization of their sound, not the tube-like sound promised by the original hype. They are not harsh, but I don't like much else about their sound. They even made my sweet sounding old Missions seem dry.

Just my opinion. You should know that I am primarily a tube guy, so consider that bias (pun?

). The Le Amp II might be a different animal, but who knows until they hear one?

ABEX · « **Reply #4 on:** 11 Apr 2003, 08:38 pm »

Well if I got amps that were Dry,Veiled and Dark it would be a real setback!

My B&K is a real nice amp

,but I want to Vertical amps.The only reason why I would get an amp like that is for Bass Drivers and thats only if they could do them right.If I wanted amps as you have described I would be touting to everyone how good Adcoms are.Adcoms do do Bass good,but besides that I would not buy them.

For Bass another good muscle amp would be Muse.'

Odessy is suppose to be the signature I am use to being forward Bias'd to run more in ClassA.

If these new LeAmps are in the Berning league then I would want to hear them.If not then I'll look elsewhere.

The original LeAmps I read the reviews and they did not sound to glowing,but they can if tweeked correctly I think.

Thanks for the opinions and I will wait for the feedback from those who have heard them.

Funny ,but MB stated there is no veiling.Maybe they are a different creature than the originals.If not I will look elsewhere!

Thanks!

Hantra · « **Reply #5 on:** 11 Apr 2003, 08:56 pm »

Quote

The original LeAmps I read the reviews and they did not sound to glowing,but they can if tweeked correctly I think.

You can tweak a Ford Pinto to do a 7 second quarter mile. BUT. . . At the end of the day, it's still a Pinto. . .

ABEX · « **Reply #6 on:** 11 Apr 2003, 09:03 pm »

Is it the output resistors that make the difference when Forward Biasing the amps to run more in CLassA operation.That is what I was told and am wondering weather that is correct.

The thing which I think is important is taking the signature of veiling out of the amp.I go listening to amps today and I only need 1 minute to start hearing vocals that sound like they are being masked before I say I have heard enough.

My B&K is Forward biasd and the Odyssey(?) amps are forward biasd also which I assume is the reason people like them so much.Rotels have this signatire also.Atleast the reciever I heard recently has it.Anthem and HK which is the darkest amp I have ever heard.Adcom has it.Mark Levs and Krells don't.

What are your thoughts?

I really do not care wether the LeAmp is still the LeAmp.What I do care about is wether I can obtain the desired traits in the amp I am looking for either throuh it being stock or modified.

If my B&K sounds close to a Krell by being tweeked with no veiling of Vocals,liquid midrange and tight bass for a fraction of what I would be paying for a krell or Mark Lev then I'll take 3 sets for Vertical amping.That is what I am getting at and what I am looking for.

Rocket · « **Reply #7 on:** 12 Apr 2003, 01:51 am »

hello abex,

can you explain one thing to me, what is vertical amping? i haven't heard of this term before.

looks like you have received some good advice about the leamps, try before you buy as hifi is such a personal choice. many ppl i have corresponded with at audiocircle/hd have the leamps and are very happy with them. probably not everyones cup of tea tho.

i know that i keep plugging the aksa but have you considered this amp? is there anyone local to you who has one for you to demo? you can implement them as monoblocks. recently i've been demoing the amplifier here in perth and everyone has been really impressed with the amplifier, they have the bel canto amps and pass labs.

anyway good luck with your choice.

regards

rod

Carlman · « **Reply #8 on:** 12 Apr 2003, 02:22 am »

I had a B&K ST-140 that I loved for about 4 years. Great amp. I have a friend that has an ST-202, a somewhat better amp than the ST-140.

I now have the AKSA. It does everything the ST-140 did well and then fills in all the inadequacies... and then some. There's simply more life, more drive, more everything. I would say if you have a highly modified ST-202 it wouldn't be worth the effort of moving into anything else. That amp sounds so good I can't think of much that would beat it... (maybe a McCormack or Threshold SA1... but, I don't know, never heard them together.)

I'm not sure what a lot of your terminology means so, I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for from reading this post. But, if you want tube like smoothness with the authority of SS, I'd highly recommend an AKSA. From your other posts about music, I think the AKSA would provide the kind of drive you would like with rock... and is also very capable of capturing the mood and intimacy of a live performance.

Just my 2¢

-Carl

ABEX · « **Reply #9 on:** 12 Apr 2003, 02:23 am »

I have been trying to explain Vertical Amping on 3 BB's now and this will be the 4th I think.I will try .I should write a thesis about it.LOL
===================================
3 types of Amping
Horizontal
Vertical
Bi-Amping

Horizontal--2way speakers
Is sharing the amps between both channels
You have 2 amps to share to drive the Tweeters and Woofers
1 amp to the Mid\Tweeters for both Channels
1 amp to drive the Woofers for Both Channels

Horizontal for 3ways
You could have the tweeters,Mids and woofers being driven by 1 amp in both channels for sets of drivers it would still mean you are Horizontaly driving the speakers,but most speakers only come with 2 sets of binding post and do not allow to adjust levels so you are either have Horizontaly or Bi-amping capability.

Vertical Amping
Is usually done with an outboard XO which has many advantages ehich I will get to.Heres how it is setup.
For 3-ways speaker systems you'd need 3 sets of Monoblocks.
1 amp for each driver therefore you have 1 amp for each individual driver.They are looped between the driver to the outboard XO the XO is hooked into the L\R Inputs of the preamp.
1-amp L. Ch. Tweeter Driver
1-amp R. Ch. Tweeter Driver
1-amp L. Ch. Midrange Driver
1-amp R. Ch. Midrange Driver
1-amp L. Ch. Woofer Driver
1-amp R. Ch. Woofer Driver

Hench you have dedicated amps for each driver.The Benefits of this are as follows:
Less Crosstalk
Less Distortion
More Efficientcy for amps to drive the speakers
Ability to adjust output levels of the Drivers which allows for better speaker to room interaction.

Bi-Amping has no value other than more power.

I hope that explains it!

Here are examples of Crossovers
http://www.marchandelec.com/
http://www.bryston.ca/crossel.html

If I am wrong please clarify the mistakes!

ABEX · « **Reply #10 on:** 12 Apr 2003, 02:34 am »

Just to follow that up .It usually takes an ACTIVE OUTBOARD XO to get Vertical amping.Some speaker manfs. do have internal ACTIVE XO's I think.

Active Crossovers are prefered because you can adjust levels and you would have to have the capability to adjust levels using different amps.

Kishore · « **Reply #11 on:** 12 Apr 2003, 07:58 am »

Quote from: ABEX

One of the things the nOrh site is that they might have a similar signature to Mike Barnes Berning amps which are no slouches when it comes to good amplification. <snip>

http://www.norh.com/news.html
TIA,ABEX

I think you meant Barnes' BEDINI Amp not Berning.

I think LeAmp2 will be a great value for money-but comparing it to Berning

..I'd luv to see it compared to Ampzillas first

Cheers,
Kishore

ABEX · « **Reply #12 on:** 12 Apr 2003, 08:05 am »

Well if you look at nOrh's news he (MB)mentions Bernings in the article.One thing that intrigues me is the amps ability to double it's output with each halveing of Impedance.That is truely a remarkable feat for an amp going for that little.

I would not venture to say it's a Berning ,but I am wondering how good it actually is.I am just not going to buy them if they have a Dark Recessed signature and I am looking for feedback to see just what they do sound like.

The Transistors are good so how bad can it sound is the question.If they are good enough I will buy 3 sets of them.

Thx,ABEX

Kishore · « **Reply #13 on:** 12 Apr 2003, 08:19 am »

Typically doubling ouput with half impedence aint gonna happen- I have read too many claims by many Amp manufacturers and when you do real testing (or measurements in reviews) the doubling/halving is not achieved within specs ( incl THD

)...unless power reserves are well within specs (Ampzilla2000 & couple of hi-end Krell Amps comes to my mind)

Maybe the enlightened gurus can respond

Cheers,
Kishore

ABEX · « **Reply #14 on:** 12 Apr 2003, 08:23 am »

Well Kishore then Mike Barnes is blowing smpke up my ass because that is what he is claiming!

ABEX · « **Reply #15 on:** 12 Apr 2003, 08:23 am »

ABEX · « **Reply #16 on:** 12 Apr 2003, 08:33 am »

Here are the specs he put down in a thread at his BB:I seem to remember him stating or his news stating doubling at each Halving.
===============================

"The signal path has been kept as short as possible and beefy transformers rated at 750 V/A each assure stability of the power supplies.
Our unit was spec'd out and provided rather impressive measurements. Harmonic distortion is 0.00332% at 20Hz, 0.00288% at 200Hz, 0.00343% at 2kHz and 0.00570% at 20kHz. Intermodulation distortion is 0.00374%; noise was measured at -110dB from 20Hz to 20kHz. Power at clipping measured 582 watts per channel, though the component is rated at 500 watts/ch into 8 ohms and 800 watts/ch into 4 ohms. The input impedance is 15k ohms balanced and 50k ohms unbalanced. Input sensitivity is 2 volts balanced and 1 volt unbalanced (100w/8 ohms). All in all, this amplifier is an excellent piece of work by anyone?s standards. "

The person posting here has said it is impossible to get 800 watts out of a 800 V/A transformer. We show math that you can. He says we are wrong. Above is a review showing that a Bryston amp with 750 V/A power supply gets 500 watts into 8 ohms and 800 watts into 4 ohms.

ABEX · « **Reply #17 on:** 12 Apr 2003, 08:43 am »

It is stated at nOrh's News Page:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We have tested Le Amp II at 200 watts RMS into 8 ohms with .05% THD, 400 watts RMS into 4 ohms and 800 watts into 2 ohms. We are now claiming that Le Amp II is a 180 wpc amplifier. The actual rating will depend on the operating temperature once we have our custom heatsinks finished.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Another thing that is not as special that he mentions it to be is this.
"Le Amp II uses no negative feedback. We use a DC Servo circuit so there are no capacitors in the signal path and no DC offset.?

My modified B&K ST-202 also uses a DC SERVO circuit and is forward bias'd to run more in Cl.A operation making it cleaner than alot of amps.Which in turn gets veiling out of the presentation.

So if these things are true of the LeAmpII it is what I am looking for,but I want validation of the signature of the amp before I buy.

Rocket · « **Reply #18 on:** 12 Apr 2003, 10:29 am »

hello abex,

does norh have a return policy? the best thing to do is to purchase the amp and listen to it for yourself, if you didn't want to pay the return shipping you could always sell it.

i was having a similiar predicament late last year, i wanted an aksa 55 but my speakers were low impedance and i had to buy the 100 (cost more money). anyway i took a leap of faith and it worked out for me.

may'be you'll have to do this as well. i've enjoyed taking risks in the last 12 months as i also bought the perpetual technologies dac which worked out well.

anyway good luck with your decision.

regards

rod

CE · « **Reply #19 on:** 12 Apr 2003, 11:05 am »

checkout some top quality AVA www.avahifi.com sonic bliss, reliable, does everything as claimed. Been using AVA stuff for years..i bi-amp my Legacy FOCUS speakers...using 2 AVA/Hafler DH500. Bi-amp is a BIG BIG improvement in deep bass and much cleaner highs. It's about 1200W RMS (2 amps total) into 4 ohm Legacies. www.legacy-audio.com