[Aman]

Hi guys!

I am planning on purchasing my first real pair of speakers and am having a tough time deciding between Omega Loudspeakers and Ohm Acoustics.

I use a VERY nice-sounding vintage amplifier which I prefer to all others I have, and I would like to use the speakers on this amp. It only does 15 watts per channel into 8 ohms, however. On the other hand, I may upgrade to a bigger and better amp later on - maybe even tubes.

I like a lot of different music - I listen to everything from acoustic guitar duets to jazz to progressive rock to orchestral classics. I suppose it should be able to handle simple and semi-complicated recordings.

I listen to only vinyl, and like my sound characteristics to be mainly consisting of clarity and realism. Bass should be there but only so it's noticable - certainly not overdone. Highs -- well, I just don't want them to be shrill. Imaging/Air and Soundstaging are nice bonus extras.

If anybody could help this fella' with absolutely no idea what he's doing, I'd be VERY appreciative. Thanks in advance to all that are willing to help!

PS: I am trying to spend between 500-600 dollars on the speakers (not including stands). I have the ability to trade in my old Ohm speakers for 25% off the newer Ohm models .. but if the sound isn't for me, I'd definitely go for the Omegas, even if I'd be getting more for my money. Plus, the concern of my amp's ability to drive the speakers is a big one.

Thanks again!
-Andrew

[Brad]

I thought the Ohm's had a fairly complex crossover.

Your vintage amp will probably be a LOT happier driving the crossover-free, more efficient Omegas

Which amp is it?   I have a Scott 222-c that sounds terrific - rated about the same power.

[Aman]

It's a Pioneer SX-450 amplifier. Actually, it is technically a receiver.

Thank you for responding!
-Andrew

[Bwanagreg]

Disclaimer: I own Omegas and have never heard Ohms - although I've heard good things about them and have always been curious about them.

I suspect either speaker would be less than perfectly matched to your receiver. The Ohms may be underpowered (I'll defer to others on that one), but the Omegas strongly prefer either tubes or (even better in my opinion) low powered digital amps.

Does your receiver have preamp outputs? If so, you are looking at only spending $400 for a fantastic sounding digital amp (or a very listenable entry level Tripath amp for <$100!!!) that will be a perfect match with the Omegas. Once you hear a battery powered tripath with a high efficiency single driver speaker it tends to be addictive, and the combination matches well your description (clarity and realism).

[Brad]

or a nice vintage tube amp for about the same money (that will include a nice tube phono stage)

But the battery-powered digital would be a great match too - some really good synergy between the digital and the Omega's.

I also think your Pioneer would be a pretty good match for the Omegas - vintage SS gear tends to be a little mellower.   If you like the sound you're getting now - I think it will only improve with the Omega's.

Unless you're in a hurry, you might wait for Louis to come out with the hemp version of the Super 3's - should happen pretty soon now.  It will play wider in range, is supposed to have better tone, and is more efficient.

[Bemopti123]

Which Ohms are you specifically referring to?

From an old Blue Circle,  Soundstage review, the reviewer was explaining the power that the amp had when driving the Ohms, which explains their lack of sensitivity.  

Ohm speakers do things well such as imaging and bass, but in order to get them, they need current and power.  

Omega speakers are different.  From the times I heard them, I felt that they were decent for what they were, but do have an issue with peakiness around the midrange, something very prevalent in the Fostex fullrange drivers used.  The same drivers also have peakiness when backhorn loaded, and the issue is also present in the breflex design that I heard.

I would point out at the Minuets, with double drivers to be an interesting match, while the drivers being used seem to be black, polypylene material to avoid the issue I was referring to.  Another choice, if Omega would be to get the Super 3 with the F120A Alnico driver, which makes the speaker jump in price.  Nevertheless, I can attest that the Fostex Alnico fullrange drivers do not have the peakiness in the midrange that their paper and different magneted cousins suffer from.

Paul

[Aman]

Wow guys! Thanks for the responses!

Right now, I own a pair of Ohm Model B speakers from the earlier 70's, and I will talk to the Ohm engineer soon about the possibility of (and benefit of) simply upgrading those speakers to newer parts. The speakers cost 500 dollars back in the day, so I am imagining they would only be higher in value today. They still sound as great as the day I bought them.

These particular Ohm Model B speakers run very well on my amplifier currently. These are the specifications for the Ohm Model B - my amplifier can easily handle this:

Amplifiers Recommended   25 - 100 watts
Impedance (typical)          4 ohms
Frequency Response     32 - 20,000 Hz
Sensitivity @ 2.8 Volts         86 dB

So, if my amplifier can handle this -- can it handle the Ohm Microwalsh speakers (the ones I would plan on getting?). This is the only information I could find on the site regarding the power sensitivity:

The frequency response is 47-20,000 Hz +/- 3.5 dB for towers; 80-20,000 Hz +/- 3.5 dB for center

Recommended amplifier 20-150 watts per channe

And on the other hand -- do you guys think it may be better to simply upgrade my amplifier and my turntable (a measly Goldring GR1) to something considerably better, and just keep the speakers as they are? They do sound good ... I sometimes ask myself why I still want to upgrade them after I realized that the distortion on the highs was only coming from a binding post which I fixed quite easily...

Thank you so much for all your guys' help!
-Andrew

EDIT: Would this be a good amp to power my Ohm Model Bs if I happen to just upgrade my amplifier instead? Thanks! http://www.bluenote.it/bluenote_product_dett.asp?cat=tabAmplifiers&IdProd=4

[Bemopti123]

You need better amplification, afterwards, you should look into upgrading the Ohms, if you decide to go in that direction.  

The problem with this is the amplifier can dictate what you want to run with them, for example, large, muscle SS amplifier might make you look into larger speakers that are inefficient

or

should you go low power, then, it might simply push you to get a simple crossover or no crossover speakers, be it Omega or the like.

The later option will have you getting rid of the Ohms, because, believe me, they might need more power than what you are give them.  If they sound good now, then, they might blow you away, should you give them quality power.  

The turntable upgrade, will solve the fact that your gear now, might possibly need an update, especially in the amplification front.  

check the specs of your receiver...

http://www.classicaudio.com/value/pio/SX450.html

15 watts of power for you.  

You need more power for the Ohms.

Some options for $60-1000....Get a OCM-200-500 amplifier and a used preamp for around $200.  That set up can drive your Ohms.


OR

Get a Omega with the F120As, and run them with the receiver.  

I did hear that Omega is planning to come out with a newer speaker driver made of Hemp....Hemped drivers supposedly sound as good as the Alnico and are cheaper.  

If you hold on....maybe you get get into the Hemp bandwagon.  No pictures of speakers with those drivers on the Omega website.

[Aman]

Hello Bemopti123:

Thank you so much for the detailed information in that post! I think I have a pretty good idea that if I were to upgrade one piece, it would be my amplifier. I am willing to spend between 600-700 dollars. Do you think that it would be better to go with your proposed power/pre amp combo, or with an integrated amplifier? I may be able to go even higher as time goes on -- but I do plan on purchasing the amplifier in the next month or two... so things won't change that drastically.

I was offered a VERY attractive price on a Bluenote Steroid One amplifier that was only used once for a demo for 600 dollars. Is this a good deal? I was told it was an integrated amplifier from Italy, and that people at the audio convention who heard it just absolutely loved it...

I would prefer to not buy used. The Bluenote amp is different since it was only used once and still in its original shrink wrap and packaging. In that case, if I were to upgrade the amplifier right now so that it would work well with the Ohm Model B speakers, what characteristics do you think the amp should have? A lot of wattage? More clarity? Better separation? Less noise? Strong mids or bass?

Thanks so much for the help!
-Andrew

[Bemopti123]

There seems to be different models of the Blue Note floating around....

A MKII, according to Blue Note seems to be the newest one.

A SIGNATURE, for what seems me demo or used here
....http://www.toddthevinyljunkie.com/products/product.php?id=485

is just $650.  

So, I do not know what they have offered you.  You might haggle down the price.

The technical part right now, this amp seems to me very well made.  25-30 watts, but if it runs closer to Class A, it might also give you some current.  It will be a definite improvement from what you have right now.

If you get this amplifier, remember that you are down for a speaker upgrade.  You might be able to hold on because there are TONS of things that are happening for speakers, especially in the lower end or scale of things.  

There is a project going on with a fullrange 8" German driver that Vinnie from Red Wine Audio along with Louis from Omega might be tapping into.  The drivers are affordable, around $280 a pair.  After it comes out, maybe you can get yourself a design and make it.  There is a whole thread right here about those drivers, the Darkstar thread.  

The Blue Note seems to be very well crafted.  To be almost brand new, it is very, very well priced.  You can do a lot worse than that integrated in the used marked.

[cornelius]

I would suggest upgrading your amp.  Before I bought my current speakers (Ohm MicroWalsh Tall), I upgraded my amp and saw huge gains.  Right now, I'm powering the Ohms with just a 75 Watt McIntosh integrated - it is enough power and sounds very, very good (12'X18' room with a 7'x7' alcove).

I would also suggest talking to John at Ohm.  I have a feeling the Micro Talls would outperform your B's (which are great speakers) in every way, but best to hear that from John (the designer).

Whatever you do, stick with Ohm!

[Aman]

Do you guys think that it may just be worth it to restore the speakers after getting a proper amp for them? I have a guy who would give a good hourly rate if I supplied the parts for him...

Thanks guys!!
-Andrew

[Bemopti123]

Restoring the speaker is not a bad idea.  Nevertheless, remember the amp issue.  You need more power.  The Blue Note amplifier is good, but not the final thing that will drive your speakers to its limits.

Check what the repair might entail...the worst is to say hour rate, later to figure out that this repair person might have billed you more because he "did not expect" this too be too difficult.  I do not know exactly what drivers the Ohms might need to be refurbish, but if it is to send the driver to the factory and later installing them yourself, it might not take too long.  The cabinets will not need anything to be done.  

The Blue Note will force you to upgrade, but to a different type of speaker.
Maybe you should look for an integrated with more power, if you go the route of restoring the Ohms.  

Some ideas as integrateds, Plinius 8200 MKII, goes for around $1200-1300, almost double what the Blue Note goes for, but it has plenty of power.

I am not really impressed with Musical Fidelity designs.  They have integrateds that fall into the price range you are looking for.  

Other integrateds I can think of around the $600 price range do not have the juice to drive the Ohms properly....LDF Mistral, Audio Refinement Complete(there are people who love this integrated, but I had two, returned the last one to the dealer because of an reocurring electronic failure, most likely related with the remote volume control and source switching)

Another integrated that is well made, the Blue Circle CS, that goes for around $1249 MSRP new, can get it cheaper.  That amps has around 50 watts at 8 ohms.  

Oh, the Portal Panache, has around 100 watts at 8 ohms, I saw one used for very cheap....around $700

check the ad

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1126374306

This is a very well made, although not too pretty integrated.  It should sound very good.  

Those are the choices you have.

[Aman]

Okay, so I suppose the Bluenote is not a very good option for my power-hungry speakers.

I was checking out some deals on the internet and have found two amplifiers that I am very interested in that are going for a similar price:

The Musical Fidelity X150
AND
The Rega Mira 3

I listen to just vinyl for about 95% of the time, so a lot of the other inputs are not necessary. However, both amps have an interesting feature: a pre-amp out, meaning that if I decide to get a power amp, I can use one of these integrated amplifiers as a pre-amp. Is this a smart thing to do at all?

And, are there other comparable integrated ampliifers around the 600-800 dollar range (new or used) such as the ones above? The Musical Fidelity one in particular is really catching my eye right now, considering it just has the look of a very powerful amplifier with tons of clarity.

Thanks in advance guys! I appreciate all the help!
-Andrew

[Bemopti123]

The Panache integrated is what I would get, with 100 watts but those are really powerful watts with the clarity of tubes in the midrange.  $700 is a steal.  That is the integrated I would get given the chance to buy an amplifier.  I am not really into MF, Rega, have not heard much.  Panache would cost around $2500-3K is sold as a regular product via dealerships, thus, used it would go easily for 1-1.5K.

[thayerg]

A pre-out is an excellent facillity. You can do a passive bi-amp configuration using a second power amp from the same manufacturer. Or you can use it for a subwoofer output.

Your old Pioneer has its charms but you'll find that a good contemporary amp will sound a lot better--better dynamics, imaging and resolution.

[Aman]

Okay.. I think the following questions are going to be determining the position of which amplifier I may choose:

1. Will the phono stage on a normal $1000 integrated amplifier sound better or worse than my Music Hall 'mmf-phono pack'?

2. Are the pre-amp outputs on these integrated amplifiers justifiably good?

3. Is it better to have fourty watts of tube power or 100 watts of solid state power?

Thank you very much guys!

-Andrew

[Aman]

So, I talked to the fellow from Ohm a few days ago, and he actually persuaded me to both keep my current amplifier and my current speakers. He told me that since I was already able to drive my speakers to ear-splitting levels, that upgrading the amplifier wouldn't make a very big difference in sound quality.

And I just discovered that my Ohm speakers are actually Model E, and not Model B. I am assuming that the Model E speakers were better, since they were produced later, but what do I know?

I need to talk to somebody at Ohm again, because I was told how to fix my slight problem with one of the speakers (the weird distortion of particular high notes) but that was the fix for the Model B. It may be different now that I discovered that I own a different model of the speaker than once thought. I don't know why I thought it was a Model B, since it says right on the speaker Model E -- I don't know how this got past me! :rolleyes:

Anyway, I will be looking into fixing the speakers for now, I believe, and then looking for a turntable upgrade, since that is what it appears to need the most upgrading now (Goldring GR1 ... yeah... I know)

Thanks again for everybody's help! I suppose I was looking a bit too ahead of myself!

[maxwalrath]

... since I was already able to drive my speakers to ear-splitting levels, that upgrading the amplifier wouldn't make a very big difference in sound quality..

huh? spl's doesn't equal quality

[Aman]

... since I was already able to drive my speakers to ear-splitting levels, that upgrading the amplifier wouldn't make a very big difference in sound quality..

huh? spl's doesn't equal quality

Oh? I was told that by the fellow I talked to at Ohm... But what do I know? :p

Okay then, here's the situation.

I have 1000 dollars to spend.

I have a pair of speakers from Ohm (Model E) that certainly get loud enough on the amp I have already. Though, very, VERY rarely, the right speaker cracks on specific high frequencies (and there's no pattern or order to it ... it just happens at certain times with certain recordings, in particular Yes' "Tales from Topographic Oceans, side 2). And no, this isn't a recording thing, because when I switched the speaker to the left side instead of the right, the speaker distorted the highs like before, but now they were on the left side. The then right side speaker sounded perfectly fine, just as they did when they were on the left.

I have a Pioneer SX-450 amplifier that does 15 watts into 8 ohms, though they seem POWERFUL enough to drive the speakers I currently have, which are 89dB sensative at 6 ohms. But according to some, my speakers will really open up with a new amplifier with a higher watt rating.

I have a Goldring GR1 turntable which I suppose sounds alright but it's kind of low end. There's nothing wrong with it ... but just not too much right either. It's got an RB-250 arm... maybe a cartridge upgrade later on would be a better idea.

Out of these three things, which upgrade not only takes priority, but also would improve my sound the most? I am looking for naturality and soundstaging as my priorities in sound, because I feel those are missing the most (and also, of course, purity on the high frequencies, because I don't know what is making my speakers act like they are).

Thanks so much guys. This is very confusing for a newbie like me, and this is making it easier. Slightly.

I appreciate all the help!!
-Andrew