Tube question

mca · « **on:** 15 Jul 2005, 10:51 pm »

Can anyone reccomend a 12AX7 tube to try in my Onix SP3. I am looking for something with a real warm, lush sound.

I figure this would be a good tube to start my rolling with as the bias will not have to be changed as opposed to the 5881 driver tubes.

I posted this same question over at the AV123 forum but got no reply...

NealH · « **Reply #1 on:** 15 Jul 2005, 11:10 pm »

The Sovteks exhibit a warmer sound, though sometimes I thought that I perceived a touch of fuzziness in the sound character, but couldn't swear to it. Anyway, this is one of the AX7's that you should try. They are cheap and plentiful.

ohenry · « **Reply #2 on:** 15 Jul 2005, 11:24 pm »

If you haven't done so, take a look at the infamous "Joe's tube lore". He's pretty critical, but it may give you a little insight. Personally, I found that the JJ's were the best new tubes and NOS Telefunken's were nice in my preamp. I'd describe the JJ's as balanced and quiet and the Telefunkens as smooth and laid back. Also, the black plate RCA and Raytheon 5157's (I think that's the number) had accentuated mids and highs and not quite as laid back in my application. I never got a hold of any Amperex Bugle Boys, but they're suppose to be great ones, but so expensive.

Hope that helps a little.

http://www.nickdangerous.com/misc/mghead/joestubelore.htm

SET Man · « **Reply #3 on:** 15 Jul 2005, 11:25 pm »

Hi,

Hmmm... tube rolling eh? There are many options out there. New current production tube or NOS tube?

If you want current production. I think the Electro-Harmonix 12AX7EH could fit you need and they are inexpensive.

I'm currently using Ei Elite-Gold 12AX7 in my tubed photo section of my pre. They sound great! Not too warm with open and dynamic sound.

I don't know much about NOS but I do have a pair of Mullard 4004 (12au7) in my line stage section. I got them from Upscale Audio. They are excellent.. but $$$.

Anyway, have fun.

Goodluck,
Buddy

toobluvr · « **Reply #4 on:** 16 Jul 2005, 03:05 am »

Mullard box plates are considered by many to be the cream of the NOS 12ax7 crop. The Telefunken 12ax7 <> bottom are also considered among the best.

In my experience the Tungsram 12ax7 is excellent....and lots cheaper.
It is as good as, if not better, than all other 12ax7, both NOS and current production, I've tried in my phono section. And I've tried many.

You can buy it here:

http://tubeman.com/item11.htm

I don't know the location of the tube, but if you can get away with it, there are some really good 5751. They have less gain than 12ax7...about 80%.
They are also typically cheaper than the NOS 12ax7 "big boys".
I have used them in line and phono applications. Don't know if you can use them for amp inputs or drivers.

RCA triple mica black plate "Command Series" 5751 are killer.
Good ol' true blue American toobulation from the 50's......clear, detailed, full and musical with great tone. Might be considered lush by some, depending on where you are on the spectrum.

Lots of folks swear by Raytheon "windmill getter" 5751. These are usually labelled Westinghouse.

RCA long black plate 12ax7 or 7025 might also do the trick. Late 50's early 60's are the ones to get.

For current production, the Sovtek 12AX7LPS is not bad at all: dynamic and robust with rich tone, but can be a bit dark. In the right situation, this might be just the ticket.

This is just a few suggestions to get ya started. Go over to TubeAsylum and run some searches. You will get page after page of results, as this ground has been very well tread many times over.

lcrim · « **Reply #5 on:** 16 Jul 2005, 08:28 pm »

You can spend a lot for NOS but the newly manufactured Sovtek 12AX7-LPS are very nice and reasonbly priced. I like it very much.

doug s. · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 Jul 2005, 09:48 pm »

tubeman also offers sovtek cryo 12ax7 tubes, which are supposedly as nice as the spendy nos tubes. (i have never tried 'em.) another option is nos mitsubishi 12ax7's, which are basically mullards, as they were made on mullard tooling. much cheaper than typical mullards. but, mebbe not for much longer, if more folk find out about 'em..

doug s.

toobluvr · « **Reply #7 on:** 19 Jul 2005, 02:51 pm »

Forgot to mention one of my all time faves:

Raytheon 12ax7

At least I think what I have is Raytheon. It has long shiny black ladder plates, and halo getter. Gold labelling on mine is "Baldwin Piano-Organs, Made in USA". My understanding is that Raytheon made them for the Baldwin company for use in their organs. I believe "Schober Organs" also sourced theirs from Raytheon and you will sometimes find them labelled that way.

There are some variants out there with the organ labels, but perhaps sourced from Sylvania? I have also seen grey plates, square getters, and green labelling. I can't comment on how they differ from mine.

Don't laugh. This unassuming (and cheap!) tube has at least equalled (and often bested) all the good European ones that I have tried in both my phono sections. I think it ranked #1 in a 12AX7 shoot-out conducted by Vacuum Tube Valley magazine. This USA made black plate Raytheon beat out Telefunken, Mullard, Amperex and all other makers and variations of 12AX7 tubes for the best audio!

Prepare yourself for a plush ride with these babies! These Baldwin tubes have quite an amazingly strong personality: rich, full, deep, lush, 3D- a lovely, vintage sound. There might be a slight give-up in detail and treble resolution/extension, but they are wonderful if you like a really liquid, smooooooooth, and deep sound. They really do all the things tubes do quite well, but just with some extra depth and smoothness. Hence, maybe not the most dynamic, but the bass is still strong and has good weight...but maybe not as clean and punchy as what more "accurate" and modern tubes would give. The midrange is VERY nice....think Crosby and Sinatra.

I use lush and vintage in a good way here. Not thick, dark or overly obscured. They sound just right to me. Quite well balanced with nothing sticking out. Good clarity without any glare on insistent quality whatsoever. Naturally detailed, smooth and relaxed. Wonderful tone and organic quality to the sound. A nice "wet" soundstage that is wide and deep, and populated by focused and believable images. Very quiet and not microphonic at all....even when tapped.

This tube never fails to draw me in and connect me to the music. Very musical with good "pull". My experience with these in my phono section is that I just forget about the gear and concentrate on the music more.

Were I you, I would start with this one. I wouldn't be surprised if your search ended here. And the best part is...they are insanely cheap! I got mine on E-Bay. The seller was not a pro tube seller....just a hobbyist. He stumbled upon a stash, kept enough for himself, and sold the rest. He told me they beat all his top Teles, Mullards, etc. I figure sure, sure.....sales pitch. But sure enough, I see all his used "big boy" 12ax7 pop up on E-Bay. I took a chance and am glad I did. Do a search on "Baldwin 12ax7" or "Raytheon 12ax7" (or maybe "Sylvania 12ax7"?). There are some there now.

re: Sovtek 12ax7-LPS
while it is decent and pretty good as far as current production goes, its performance is fairly pedestrian and unspectacular. It is listenable and pleasant because it is not shrill or bright like many CP tubes. I've tried it in several pieces of gear and hear it to be just a bit grey and flat...lacking in space, air and dimensionality. This Raytheon....and most other good NOS...beat it handily.

lcrim · « **Reply #8 on:** 19 Jul 2005, 06:27 pm »

Despite a conflicting opinion, I still like the Sovtek 12AX7LPS. In my opinion, it sounds 90% as good as European NOS in audio applications, at only $13 apiece. It has lower gain than others but is also quiet. Otherwise, it's shell out the major dollars for NOS European tubes.
Telefunken 12AX7s were going for way over $100 new the last time I checked. Quality NOS 12AX7s are expensive because serious guitar players will pay it and have already beaten the supply down to nothing.
The "Baldwin" was obviously manufactured by someone else and may be as good as stated. The Sovtek is quite good, cheap and readily available.
You could, for a little more, try both.

toobluvr · « **Reply #9 on:** 19 Jul 2005, 07:42 pm »

Quote from: lcrim

Despite a conflicting opinion, I still like the Sovtek 12AX7LPS. In my opinion, it sounds 90% as good as European NOS in audio applications, at only $13 apiece. It has lower gain than others but is also quiet. Otherwise, it's shell out the major dollars for NOS European tubes.

The Raytheon/Baldwin 12ax7 can easily be had for 10-$15 each, sometimes less depending on bidding interest. So they can even be cheaper than the Sovtek.

For example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5788611129&category=64629&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1

A "completed items" search on Ebay yields many more low price examples.

To each his own, but to my ears the Sovtek is not even close. Perhaps the location of the tube, and how revealing your system is, will be a factor in discening differences. I use mine in a phono section of a fairly resolving system.

Do a search on AudioAsylum. You will find many other folks who have discovered how sweet and musical this unheralded tube is. Some people list it as their fave. As for why it is priced so low, I don't know. Perhaps because it doesn't have a "prestige" label? Perhaps because they are almost always used "pulls"? That's OK....makes it cheaper for me!

Anyway, the price is so reasonable that you can easily try both and decide for yourself. I'd be surprised if you preferred the Sovtek. If you want, I'll make you a good price on my almost new pair of Sovtek 12ax7-LPS.

doug s. · « **Reply #10 on:** 19 Jul 2005, 07:42 pm »

Quote from: lcrim

Despite a conflicting opinion, I still like the Sovtek 12AX7LPS. In my opinion, it sounds 90% as good as European NOS in audio applications, at only $13 apiece. It has lower gain than others but is also quiet. Otherwise, it's shell out the major dollars for NOS European tubes.
Telefunken 12AX7s were going for way over $100 new the last time I checked. Quality NOS 12AX7s are expensive because serious guitar players will pay it and have already beaten the supply down to nothing.
The "Baldwin" was obviously ...

cryo'd sovtek 12ax7's are only $20; i was about ready to try 'em when i found some nos matsushita/mullards instead, for less. i wonder if cryo'ing the sovteks make up the extra 10% - anyone here ever try 'em?

re: telefunkens, if you check out ebay, you can get 'em for ~$25-$50 a piece, from reliable tube sellers... no way i'd pay $100 for one.

doug s.

mca · « **Reply #11 on:** 20 Jul 2005, 04:30 pm »

Thanks for all the suggestions. Thats what makes this hobby so interesting, so many choices and preferences! I put in an order with the Tubeman for a couple sets of lower cost tubes and will see what happens.