[Jason1]

No doubt your speakers sound very good, I never disputed that.  Engineering and manufacturing a waveguide will of course increase the cost for a small company (Ampihon dosen't seem to have a problem doing it for cheap, along with many pro sound companies).  

The 9300 is a very good tweeter, which my ACI Essence V's use, so I am familiar with how it sounds. Distortion data proves the 9500 and 9700 to be superior above 2khz (extremely close below that), and the Seas's Excel line of tweeters to be better below 2khz. All of the tweeters in question have 1 mm p-p excursion.  

Calling tweeters that cost $70-100 more on a $10k+ speaker "EXTREMELY costlier" is a wee bit of an exaggeration  

I wont post anymore as I seem to have hit a nerve. Best of luck with your company.

[jermmd]

By the way, have you seen this month’s Stereophile? Look at the “big name” speaker on the cover and its review. To think that anybody would produce a product that cost almost $45K with as lousy a set of specs as that product

What is being referred to here? Surely not the Paradigm Signature S2.

[NealH]

What is being referred to here? Surely not the Paradigm Signature S2.

He is referring to the Wilson Maxx 2 on the cover of the August issue.

[ekovalsky]

I haven't seen the new Stereophile yet and am unaware of the reviewer's impression and measurements.  But I did audition the MAXX2 earlier this year and thought it was superb, in fact one of the best speakers I have heard.  YMMV of course!

[NealH]

The measurements were so-so, a bit ugly here and there, but Michael Fremmer (the reviewer) plum flipped over these speakers.  Even JA was very impressed with the sound.

[Aether Audio]

Jason1,

Calling tweeters that cost $70-100 more on a $10k+ speaker "EXTREMELY costlier" is a wee bit of an exaggeration

I would and do totally agree with you if the ones I was referring to were only $70-100 more.  But that's not the case.  The units we are considering for future use are almost $400 more (and up) than the SS9300.

All of the tweeters in question have 1 mm p-p excursion.

Yes, but...what is their LINEAR excursion?  Their actual spec is 1.5 mm p-p and that is their MAXIMUM (i.e., outside their linear operating range) excursion limit.  Interestingly, the Linear and Max limit for all the SS drivers are the same.  Of course, this is not necessarily true for units outside the SS family.  That is one of the main reasons we went with SS - they all offer excellent excursion capability.  

Look at the abrupt drop-off below 2Khz in the 9500. We have our hands full as it is flatening the response of the 9300 and it's smooth as silk in comparison.  Plus, the 9500 has a nasty little impedance bump just above 1kHz that's a dead give-away for an internal resonance.  Actually, the fact is that the shielded version of the 9700 was a candidate and would have won out in the end had it not been for it's slightly lower sensitivity.

Seeing that our waveguide provides no loading above 5kHz, we needed a tweeter that could match sensitivity with (2) - 85 dB woofers in parallel.  That combination represents a 6 dB of increased volage sensitivity (i.e., 91dB @ 2.83V) over that of a single driver.  Well, assuming parallel wiring, that is.  An 88 dB sensitivity loudspeaker with a 16-ohm impedance wouldn't have been to many folks liking.  You'd need one heck of a high voltage amp to get the performance out of them.

So...you see, money only had a marginal impact on that decision.  The SEAS tweeters offer even lower sensitivity.  Morel's don't come near meeting their specs with regards to low-end extension and we didn't feel comfortable developing an entire product line on a company as small as North Creek.  We do not have infinite options and even if we did, surely someone would complain regardless of the choices made.  In the end, you have to go with what works best considering ALL of the parameters - money being but one of them.

I wont post anymore as I seem to have hit a nerve.

Don't worry about it!  I just get a little ticked because of the general view that spending more money is always the answer.  This view is held nowhere more strongly than in high-end audio.  And the fact is, it's not the truth.  Sometimes..yes, but not always.  How many stories have we all heard about some high-end car that was a piece of crap or other products?  Actually, even the SS rep recommended the 9300 for our application.  He could have tried to sell us more expensive tweeters but he knew what he was talking about (and apparently had a conscience!) - and I know now that he was right!  Who'd a thunk it?  A salesman with integrity?

So there you go.  I rest my case.  I'll be glad to invite any of you guys over to my lab and have YOU do the testing and measuring - we'll see what you come up with.

-Bob

PS.

but Michael Fremmer (the reviewer) plum flipped over these speakers. Even JA was very impressed with the sound.

Yeah, but they haven't heard OUR $45K speaker - yet.

[ekovalsky]

Bob,

I know squat about wave guides so have little to say about the best tweeter to use with them.  But I was wondering if you ever looked into the Raven 3.2MMX ribbon tweeter which has 98.5dB efficiency and 8 ohm impedance.  Recommended x-over is 800hz with a 4th order L-R.

Each of these tweeters weights 35 lbs (!) and they are very expensive, as in MSRP of $1750 each, but if we are talking $45k speakers...  

It seemed to me the unusally low x-over of this tweeter might be a good fit with your general design concept.  I've never heard the 3.2MMX but the cheaper Ravens are superb -- I have a bunch of R1.0s in my current speakers.

[NealH]

And Bob, while you are answering questions - I have a couple:

1.  How much are these Continuum 2.5's?  I don't see a price on your website ( I could have just missed it).

2.  Is the dispersion characteristic of the two drivers roughly equal at the crossover frequency (600Hz)?

[Aether Audio]

ekovalsky,

Thanks for asking!  Ribbons in a waveguide may end up being a bit of a challenge from a manufacturing standpoint - at least with regards to our present setup.  I'll admit, it does sound like a very interesting (and tempting) concept.  I've checked out most of the popular drivers at one point or another and I do remember going over the Ravens, but it's been some time back.  If I rememmber correctly, "out of the box" they have a frequency response (on-axis) that decreases in magnitude with increasing frequency.  That makes sense as they behave more like a line-source rather than a point-source.  

Right now we're looking at going two (well, three or four actually) different directions at the same time with our designs.  We want to develop a more "cost no object" product or two based to a large degree on our existing waveguide technology coupled with even more "expensive" albeit traditional dome tweeters (and REALLY cool new cabinets), and simultaneously offer an entry level product line and an A/V package.   As you can imagine, we have a pretty full plate for the time being.  Nevertheless, a design based on a really "good" ribbon could prove interesting.  I'd have a bit of research to do first as I'd want to compare distortion specs before selecting a ribbon driver.  I'm sure you know, a ribbon done right can be really sweet but done wrong can sound like shhhhhhhhhhh#%...you know, uh...splashy - yeah, that's what I meant.

With proper loading, diaphragm motion could be reduced to the vanishing point.  That would then (theoretically) translate to extremely low distortion.  The key is to find a ribbon with exceedingly low static distortion levels (i.e., not directly related to drive signal dynamics).  

Many may not realize, but loudspeaker drivers can produce relatively high levels of distortion, even when they're not being driven hard whatsoever.  Amolifiers exhibit this same tendancy, although their "static" levels of distortion are generally much lower than their loudspeaker counterparts.  It is often this static distortion (expressed as a percentage of total output) that give both amplifiers and loudspeakers a sort of "characteristic" sound.  When they are eliminated, the product is often viewed as being "inert" or having little "sound" of it's own.  That's the kind of drivers that I like to use and I suspect finding a ribbon that offers such might be a bit of a challenge.  If the Ravens are as good as claimed, that may just be why they cost $1750 each!  Hmmm...? Interesting. Thanks.

rnhood,

The Continuum 2.5's are relatively new and we are WAY behind on updating our website so...you didn't miss it - it ain't there.  Sorry! I have a couple great guys working on it though.  We'll get that fixed before long.

Anyway, to answer your question, here's the prices:

Studio Finish (Textured Black Paint over all surfaces) - $5,995.00

Standard Upgrade (Textured front panel & wood veneered sides w/satin finish) - $7,495.00

Custom Upgrade (solid hardwood front panels & veneered sides w/satin finish) - $8,995.00

Premier Upgrade (You name it - we'll do it. Exotic veneers, piano lacquer, any combination of the above) - $9,995.00

Pete G got essentially the Premier Upgrade (his deal was on our older pricing structure though), except that in the Premier (were he to have actually purchased that) he could have had any veneer of his choice and a solid hardwood front panel in lieu of the piano lacquer black one - had he wished.  

I like Oak OK, but if I was spending my money on that level of finish, I'd probably go for something a little more "exotic" in the way of veneers and I'd probably also have gone with a mirror-gloss finish over the veneer.  That's all included as options in the Premier level anyway, so why not?

Also, the new drivers (made especially for us by SEAS based on their Excel technology) will be available soon as well.  How that will impact pricing - if at all - will be announced shortly.  They are considerably more expensve than the present unit but offer considerable improvement in performance as well.  I think they look better too IMHO.  But one way or the other, you will have a choice of either within the next few weeks.

And yes...the dispersion at crossover is VERY closely matched to that of the woofer.  That's always been one of the main goals of our designs.  Earl Geddes gets all the credit for that idea, and since he has a PHD and I don't, I doubt anyone will believe me in the following.  Nevertheless, I thought of that very concept years before Geddes made it popular and actually employed that concept in our very first prototype.  This was years before I even knew who Earl Geddes was.  I've personally met the man and he's a nice guy, so I have not a thing against him.  But I do believe I did think of it first.  Oh well, who cares? Long as it works - and it definately does!

The more you know - the better we look.
-Bob

[NealH]

Thanks Bob.  You are extremely informative - and I like what I hear about those speakers.

[sonicboom]

Bob,

I don't want to be a nag since I 've already asked the question, but perhaps you missed it.  Do the new Excel woofers have metal cones as well?

[Karsten]

Bob,

I don't want to be a nag since I 've already asked the question, but perhaps you missed it.  Do the new Excel woofers have metal cones as well?

I can answer this, yes it is a metal cone.

Regards,
Karsten

[Bill Baker]

! I just get a little ticked because of the general view that spending more money is always the answer. This view is held nowhere more strongly than in high-end audio. And the fact is, it's not the truth. Sometimes..yes, but not always.

This is so true. There are too many companies and even more consumers that have the mindset of "if it cost more it has to be better". What I have found throughout years of modifying gear is that sometimes it is the most unorthodox combination of parts that yield the best performance results, no matter how expensive or cheap the cost.
 Sometimes a $70 tweeter can provide better results than a $400 piece. The final outcome should be more important than the financial investment.
 I will, however, say that there are times when the best component for any given application may be the more expensive of the options. That's what R&D is all about.... to find the best synergy without sonic compromise.
 If we could design products without initially knowing the cost of components used, I think both sides of the industry would be quite surprised.
 I have extremely expensive modifications that will use $90 capacitors in one location and $0.40 resistors in others. This is not because I was concerned about the all mighty dollar but rather found this particular combination to offer the best results for my sonic goals.

 As far as getting a bit upset about the comment, I can understand this but I also truly believe Bob knows his reply was a little over the top. Hey, it happens. I wouldn't stop posting though as this is how we figure things out and get the answers to our questions.

 Let's keep the piece and continue to enjoy the music.

[Aether Audio]

sonicboom & Response Audio,

Well, I had a nice long reply to both of you guys but the stupid AC server dropped it when I hit "SuBMIT."  I don't have time to re-write it now but at least you know I tried.  Somebody really needs to look into this, as it has happened to me many times in the past.  So much so that I got in the habit of writing my posts in WORD and then copying them over.  The one time I don't and... BAM! Down the drain it all goes.  This is not fun

-Bob

[sonicboom]

Hi Bob,

Haven't been around here in a few days, but I just had a good laugh on your last post.  Sort of reminds me of Fermat's written comment in his notebook about the solution to his famous theorem; and I'll paraphrase: I have a very eloquent solution to this problem but there's not enough space on the margin to write it down.

Keep up the good work!
Cheers

[lonewolfny42]

Pete,

So....how are your new speakers working out...any reports ? Thanks !!! [/list:u]
Chris[/list:u]

[PeteG]

Chris,
 I’ve been pretty busy and on my off day(s) I have been building a deck which with the HOT weather here in Colorado has been killing me, but this will be my last weekend and it will be done .

The Continuums have been breaking-in, but they have only been playing 3 days a week
since I’ve gotten them.  First the tweeters took about 50 hrs and they sound fantastic now, the woofers are coming along nicely but not quite to the level of the tweeters yet.

What I hear now has meet all and than some my expectations, it’s amazing how much
more of the music I can hear, it’s beyond just saying it has a 3D sound. The bass is fast and solid with great punch with no boomy decay or overhang.
I’m also tweaking my system a little because you will hear everything in your system
with these speakers.

That’s all for now, give me some more time with them and I’m sure it’s only going to get better.

Pete

[lonewolfny42]

Thanks Pete, I'll watch for your future comments. HOT weather...yeah, its summertime. Looks like 98º  in Denver today...good luck with the deck.

[Bill Baker]

I’ve been pretty busy and on my off day(s) I have been building a deck which with the HOT weather here in Colorado has been killing me, but this will be my last weekend and it will be done

 Don't feel too bad Pete, I had to rebuild the complete second story of my house this summer in our (New York) mid 90's temperatures throught June & July. Hottest 2 months on record. new roof, 57 sheets of sheetrock and 20 gallons od mud with no AC

 I have to run the AC all day in my showrooms just to keep em' cool with all the EXtreme Hurricanes and 805 amps burning in.

 We're just started to cool down yesterday. Maybe now I can get the upstairs done and get all my kids out of the same room.