[Scott F.]

I like your thinking, Scott. Very nice setup and something I will have to look into. Read your review of the Epiphony and it sounds like a heck of a nice monitor. Out of curiosity, what amps are you driving them with? I see they are tubes and with the spl's you are talking about, I assume they are a fairly high wattage?

I think folks have been reading my post wrong. I have a small (14' x 18') living room and don't want a massive speaker to blow me out of it. I like to listen to all kinds of music, but wh ...

Well, the amps are highly modified Radii's. Right now I'm running KT88's in them. Guessing, they are putting out 90-100 watts.

Rob, I wouldn't call it 'brown note' bass but more 'brown out' bass. In a previous version of this setup, I had some incandescent lights on the same circuit (before I ran a dedicated line). When you would really start cranking this puppy, the lights would dim with the heavy bass notes.

It's not one-note bass like you might think, I've measured these things and they are darned near flat to about 15Hz (using a Sencore SP295). They're -6dB at about 10Hz. I've got a bit of a peak at between 25 and 30 Hz but that s room gain (my room is 38' long).

The Shivas are pretty darned articulate when you set them up right. Not as good as some but on the other hand, not as bad as others I've played with. They are a darn good performer for the price and extremely box friendly. Corner loading and the triangluar cabinet helps tons too. I don't have any issues with integration at all. The transition is seamless. Sure, when I crank the bass up on some rock it can get a little squirelly at times but it's far better than not being able to listen that music at all.

MCA, you could do this with a standard pair of 3 way speakers too. Just remove the low to mid pass XO components (and the matching mid to low XO parts) and use the active XO and separate amp to drive the woofer. One thing though, a standard, small midrange driver won't cut it. You'll have to find something that will do 100Hz without any issues. It should have at least 6-8mm of xmax. It will need it when you are cranking it.

What you can expect.......
- Tons more headroom (or aparent power)
- Loads more dynamics
- You should find more detail too removing the lossey XO from the speakers.
- Another artifact will be more refinement and openess of your mid/tweeter amp because you have just releived it of the bass duties.
- Finally, the ability to play nearly every disc (black or shiney) in your collection and that is what this hobby is all about...... non-exclusive enjoyment of music.

Try it, you'll like it! (honest)

[Rob Babcock]

"Brown note" refers to the urban legend that a strong enough, low enough tone can make you loose control of your bowels!

[audioslave]

Nope, no Naim or Neat dealers here.  Not saying they're bad, but you don't send a sports car to do a truck's work!

Your cookie-cutter approach (i.e. big drivers/big cabinets) is perturbing to say the least....after all, there is more than one way to rock and roll. If you have not heard the Naim/Neat combo then there is no way to come to conclusions as to how it sounds nor is it fair to dismiss PRAT as simply a marketing device. I have to agree with Crespo because for me, it is all about musical involvement and when put to this very task, my Naim/Neat combo simply does it for me.  So much so that I gave up my big Paradigm Studio 100's in a heartbeat once I heard the Neats.
Sure I like to crank but just 'cuz its loud does not neccessarily make it engaging. Don't get me wrong-I do like the PSB's but not over what my Neats offer me musically.

[lonewolfny42]

mca's question.....

Please share with me systems you have found that can do justise to Rock and Roll.

My answer.....[/list:u]

[/list:u]

Sorry....I couldn't resist.... [/list:u]

[Scott F.]

"Brown note" refers to the urban legend that a strong enough, low enough tone can make you loose control of your bowels!

Oh, ICBM   (thats an Elvis PResley reference, Kissin Cousins)



This thing is almost capable of doing that. If the Shivas had a little more xmax I'd be in business. They've got 13mm xmax one way. I've buried them on a couple of occasions. Needless to say, it was really freakin loud.

[Rob Babcock]

Have you ever tried to insert a Behringer into your rig, Scott?  It could nicely cure the 30-40 hz hump you have.  My room had a nasty peak at 50-60 hz, almost 9 dB (    ) but my BFD neatly fixed it.  I only need 3 parametric bands to really smooth out the low end, and it only cost about $125.  Best of all, you can route just the low pass to it, so transparency isn't an issue.

[flintstone]

"Brown Note"

Saw the big test on TV...tons of subs and gobs of power, still....just an urban legend on that one!

Dave

[Emil]

Interesting! I was just reading up on Naim yesterday, a brand I would not have associated with rock. A lot of reviews said the same thing, must have a lot to do with the PRAT thing.

I know nothing about the Neat speakers, what can you tell me about the sound of your setup?

If you're every in the Seattle area, stop by Hawthorne Stereo for a listen.

http://www.hawthornestereo.com/

Here's some picks of the NY Rave meeting over at my place. Room size was about 20 by 25 and I dont think anyone there that attended would say
The Neats were too small for the room.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=17764

[John Ashman]

Your cookie-cutter approach (i.e. big drivers/big cabinets) is perturbing to say the least....after all, there is more than one way to rock and roll.

Ummm, the ultimate authority on this, Sammy Hagar, as already rung in and the definitive answer is "There's only one way to rock"  

[PhilNYC]

Ummm, the ultimate authority on this, Sammy Hagar, as already rung in and the definitive answer is "There's only one way to rock"  

Yeah, but um...that's Sammy Hagar...the man who turned Van Halen into a VH1 band...

[Marbles]

Ummm, the ultimate authority on this, Sammy Hagar, as already rung in and the definitive answer is "There's only one way to rock"  

Yeah, but um...that's Sammy Hagar...the man who turned Van Halen into a VH1 band...

Maybe, but on his own he is the RED Rocker!!

I liked him in Montrose, I liked him when he had his own band pre VH, and I like him post VH.

Maybe it was the Van Halen brothers that were the problem....
I like Michael Anthony too..bass player for VH...

[PhilNYC]

Maybe it was the Van Halen brothers that were the problem....
I like Michael Anthony too..bass player for VH...

Yeah, that's probably true...the VH bros hit an alltime low when they got that Gary-what's-his-name from Extreme to replace Sammy...

Was never a fan of Michael Anthony...never saw VH live, and on the albums he seems very ordinary...

[John Ashman]

Sammy's about the only thing that kept VH from playing a casinos and hotels.  He added legitimacy.  Notice how they fired him, then, maybe a year later were like "oh, yeah, uh, you can forget that, we don't know what we were thinking"

[mcrespo71]

Bring back Diamond Dave!

[Marbles]

Bring back Diamond Dave!

Diamond Dave was good in his day....but that day is long passed...now he is a charicature of his former self....he is a bad joke now, not to mention he is also  an ahole.

VH1 did a Sammy and Dave show about their tour a few years ago, it made Daved Lee Roth look really really bad, and made Sammy look pretty good.

[JLM]

When I think of reasonably priced, fairly simple rock speakers, I go to Pi Speakers.  Wayne Parham is easy to deal with, offers wonderful prices, and prefers to sell them as kits.  His speakers are all two-ways, run about 100 dB/w/m, and handle 100 - 1000 watts (120 - 130 dB) using Eminence and JBL drivers.

If you're into heavy, concert rock your speakers should mimic PA monitors.  EV, JBL, Peavey, Mackie, Fostex, and others sell active studio and PA monitors that could fit in at least in some homes.  Just add a source with a volume control and you'd have a complete system.

Like Scott said, you can't believe the bass that an active speaker can deliver.  Years ago I auditioned Paradigm Active 20s (small two-way standmount, $1600/pair).  They were unreal!!  The bass output nearly matched the Paradigm Studio 100s (large floorstanding passive, $2000/pair).

[PhilNYC]

VH1 did a Sammy and Dave show about their tour a few years ago, it made Daved Lee Roth look really really bad, and made Sammy look pretty good.

Yeah, but aren't most guys that are legends in rock a bit off the wall?  No one accused Mick Jagger of "looking pretty good" until he turned "corporate"...

[mca]

Wow! this post is getting out of control!  Anyway, MCA here is my $0.02... do your best to audition the system that YOU think would fit your need. Go listen with open mind and ear of cause, take your time and you will find what you need. Other people could only give you clues but not a complete answer.

I fully plan to do some listening of my own. But with all the choices available out there right now, it's hard to know where to begin. Theres very little out there local to audition that is any good. That's part of what this forum is for, get ideas from other people. Either what they think would work good, or what they have tried.  

In my mind, the changes to help the system out would be:

Replace Onix XCD-88  CD player, maybe with the EE tubed CD
Replace Onix SP3 with something even more "tubey" like the EE M520
Go with higher power, like the Butler 5250
Add preamp, tubed or not or drive amp directly from CD player
Try out a combo of these with the existing speakers
Try new speakers with larger driver(s)
Add sub(s)

ETC, ETC, ETC...

[_scotty_]

It might be helpful for you to list what your systems performance
is lacking when reproducing your favorite rock recordings.  What are you looking for and what do you want to improve.
Scotty

[PhilNYC]

mca...I know this is a generalization that may not apply to all cases, but adding tubes to your system doesn't seem like the right direction to make your system rock.  But as scotty said, maybe you can comment on your current system as to what you think it lacks on rock music?