Background Vocals Problem?

aggielaw · « **on:** 29 Jun 2005, 04:07 am »

I've asked this on other websites before and the only answer I got was "maybe you have insufficient amp power."

I have mini 9.0's and anytime there are backup vocals or echoes I can only hear the lead singer or lead line. This spans all kinds of music, although the most annoying times for me are the harmonies from Sons of the Desert (country) and certain intricate details in music by Rush (the "beeps" in the opening of "The Body Electric" and the vocal echo on "Test For Echo" come to mind).

Is this a problem inherent to all nOrh speakers, only mini 9.0's, or just my particular setup? Does the famous Murphy XO fix this problem?

Thanks for the help!
Howard

Meltz · « **Reply #1 on:** 29 Jun 2005, 05:45 pm »

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the speakers aren't the problem.

The background vocals should be in the same frequency range as the lead vocals, so it's hard to imagine that the speakers would have a hard time reproducing them, unless of course, they are much lower in volume.

Have you tried different speakers, a different amp, and or a different source?

nathanm · « **Reply #2 on:** 29 Jun 2005, 06:04 pm »

It sounds like a phase cancellation type of thing. What's the rest of the equipment? Do you have any surround processors hooked up? It almost sounds like a karaoke filter in reverse. Are the speakers wired in phase?

aggielaw · « **Reply #3 on:** 29 Jun 2005, 11:35 pm »

Thanks for the thoughts, guys. The associated equipment is:

Cary 303/300 CD Player
McCormack RLD-1 Platinum Revision Preamp
McCormack DNA-0.5 Revision A Amp

I had the McCormack RLD-1 (stock form) and the DNA-0.5 with a Denon CD recorder driving Inifinity Overture 2 speakers for a year and didn't have the issue. If the CDP was the issue it seems like a warm set of tubes would help at least a bit, but that doesn't seem to be the case, so I started looking at the speakers.

I have Infinity RS-3 bookshelves for my HT system; I'll wire them up to the stereo and see what happens.

I can't imagine accidentally wiring the speakers up out of phase, but I'll double-check in a half hour or so and post again...

aggielaw · « **Reply #4 on:** 30 Jun 2005, 04:41 am »

Had a function tonight I forgot about, so I just got to AB the nOrhs against my much cheaper Infinity RS-3's. The nOrhs are just bright. That's all there is to it. The lead vocals and lead guitar are much more forward on the nOrh's than the Infinities. The treble is much better, but I fear maybe I need a touch more resistance to the tweeter in my setup.

Overall I still prefer the nOrhs, but I have GOT to find a way to pull back the lead vocals and lead guitar so they aren't overbearing. Will the revised XO fix that, or do I need to go audition new speakers? I heard some Celestial Audio speakers in Phoenix a couple weeks ago (they use the same drivers as JM Labs) that were very good at about the same price as the nOrhs.

I'd like to stay a nOrh customer if possible, though, due to the customer service I've gotten and the fact that, well, I just like the way nOrhs look.

Thoughts?

Captain Humble · « **Reply #5 on:** 30 Jun 2005, 05:13 am »

I've run nOrh Marble 9's, Odyssey Lorlelies and now Usher 6381's. Audioslave and I both heard a significant difference between Groneberg and silver interconnects. Silver more in your face while the Groneberg's are a bit warmer. Just another variable to consider.

aggielaw · « **Reply #6 on:** 30 Jun 2005, 06:25 am »

It occurred to me tonight that the Silver IC's (Silver Audio Jetstream from CDP to Pre and Silver Audio Bullet 6.0's from pre to amp) might be the problem. I was about to plug in plain ol' Radio Shack RCA IC's to see what would happen. Heck, maybe I'd find I could save a bundle on cabling!

I've never heard of Groneberg (sp?); will do research on it/them tomorrow evening.

Anyone know if the Ridge Street cables are any more laid back than Silver Audio's cables? I've heard the RSA cables give all the advantages of silver without actually "sounding" like silver in the sense of being bright or forward.

MaxCast · « **Reply #7 on:** 30 Jun 2005, 12:05 pm »

I would try a different set of tubes, different wires, and different xo (if DM's will work with the mini) in that order. You would have to send one speaker to Dennis then do the other your self.

Edit: How long have you had the nOrh's?

Captain Humble · « **Reply #8 on:** 30 Jun 2005, 12:58 pm »

aggielaw said:

Quote

I've never heard of Groneberg (sp?); will do research on it/them tomorrow evening.

I wasn’t specifically recommending Groneberg, I just happen to have experience with them. There are tons of cable manufacturers and much debate over which delivers the better synergy with specific system setups.

My point was that you will probably hear a significant difference between copper and silver IC’s specifically between your source and your preamp. My experience is that silver tends to be brighter / more in your face.

If you still want additional info on Groneberg this should give you a jump start:

See Odyssey Audio.
Klaus has a forum here at Audio Circle.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=10&sid=f6e25bf5b5c980baddb667daff5d7eaf

Link to Odyssey Website:
http://www.odysseyaudio.com/

His website doesn’t say much about Groneberg but he is readily accessible by phone.

One can find a bit more info on his Singapore reps website:
http://www.odysseyaudiosg.com/

Drilling down on the Singapore site:
http://www.odysseyaudiosg.com/cables.htm

Good luck,
Jeff

Marbles · « **Reply #9 on:** 30 Jun 2005, 01:05 pm »

Quote from: MaxCast

I would try a different set of tubes, different wires, and different xo (if DM's will work with the mini) in that order. You would have to send one speaker to Dennis then do the other your self.

Edit: How long have you had the nOrh's?

Dennis has already done a mini and put the schematics on his site.

aggielaw will have to find someone else to build the XO's for him then Dennis.

Marbles · « **Reply #10 on:** 30 Jun 2005, 01:08 pm »

If it were me the FIRST thing I would do is to pull the tweeters and make sure they are hooked up + to + . That was the problem that Dennis experienced with on of the speakers he worked on, the tweeteers were installed with the XO + going to the tweeter -

see: http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=marble.html

Jay S · « **Reply #11 on:** 30 Jun 2005, 03:35 pm »

My 9s aren't bright.

Digital source makes a huge difference in terms of tonal balance and soundstaging. I'm quite happy with my TRL-modded SA-14. Its got about 600 hours on it now.

aggielaw · « **Reply #12 on:** 30 Jun 2005, 05:04 pm »

Max: I've had the mini 9's for 4 months, and they have at least a couple thousand hours on them. I also got my preamp upgraded in that time, so I ran the speakers 24/7 for about 2 months using the Purist Audio Design System Enhancer Rev. B CD. Of course, I listen quite a bit to music as well, so that gives them alot of hours, too.

Marbles, you raise an interesting point. I bought my mini 9's as a kit. The kit comes with no instructions, and looking around the net is what led me to Dennis' website. I understood his site to say that the factory wired the tweeter in reverse polarity, which he thought was odd, but when he wired the tweeter in correct polarity the tweeter become very bright and fatiguing. That was my experience as well, as the speakers were so bright when I wired the tweeters in reverse polarity that I thought I had it wrong, so I wired them with "correct" polarity (+ to +) and they were unlistenable for all the reasons Dennis listed.

Looking at his website again, at the bottom just above his schematics are notes on the crossover, and Dennis writes "Notice the tweeter is connected with reverse polarity. This is the opposite of the factory connection."

Back to the background vocals bit for a second. I listened with my ear to one of the speakers last night, and I think part of the problem is that both the tweeter and woofer are reproducing the lead vocals and some of the higher guitar, but only the woofer is reproducing the background vocals. Why this is I have no idea.

I have an offer to buy a pair of marble 9.0's and could probably sell my mini 9's on a'gon for about what it cost me to acquire them new; maybe I should jump on that?

Marbles, do you think I should try wiring the tweeter + to +? It's a 10-minute project, and I have a 4-day weekend starting at 3:30 this afternoon. Sometimes it's actually good to work for the federal government.

Marbles · « **Reply #13 on:** 30 Jun 2005, 06:11 pm »

Yes, I would try that.

I'm sure after looking at the dip on DM's graph with the tweeters wired the way you have them it is causing you the problems you mentioned.

Of course wiring them right might cause you other problems....

The best course of action would be to get DM's XO in your speakers as it would make them even easier to sell down the road, and you might just want to keep them for rear speakers or a second system.

If it were me, I would jump on the real marble 9.0's with the Murphy XO.

It is a big upgrade IMO and I wish I had done it sooner.

aggielaw · « **Reply #14 on:** 1 Jul 2005, 05:38 pm »

Well, I inserted standard RCA cables for my Silver Audio cables ($6 for the RCA vs. $600 for the Silver Audio) and I didn't lose $594 worth of sound. Interesting.

I hooked up the tweeters + to + and images snapped into focus and the background vocals came up a bit better. Problem: I hear vocals and drums damn near to the exclusion of everything else. Midbass? What midbass? You mean there's a bass guitarist in this group - and he's actually playing on this song?! The tweeter is so hot I get some fatigue listening at my normal to slightly above normal listening level.

I switched the tweeters back to reverse polarity, and the drums and vocals get pulled back a bit but the imaging goes to hell. Well, it isn't *that* bad, but it isn't razor-sharp like it is with the tweeter in absolute(?) polarity. I don't get as much fatigue with reverse polarity.

Thoughts?

nathanm · « **Reply #15 on:** 1 Jul 2005, 06:37 pm »

Geddy Lee reminds us that everybody needs reverse polarity.

Marbles · « **Reply #16 on:** 1 Jul 2005, 06:42 pm »

Have someone build you the DM XO....

aggielaw · « **Reply #17 on:** 2 Jul 2005, 12:44 am »

Nathan, yes he does! Thanks for the humor - much needed this week (this month, actually)!!!

I'm beginning to hate the month of June - every major bad thing that happens in my life seems to happen in June.

Marbles, after playing phone tag with Robert at RSA for a couple days we finally spoke this morning. He hasn't done a norh before, but I pointed him to Dennis' website, and Robert is supposed to call me with an estimate on the XO. I've never heard of Bolder Audio, but I assume if you mentioned them by name you have knowledge of their (excellent) skills?

I know most of you in here have the M9's with the 9900 tweeter. Just out of curiosity, anyone heard the 9900 and 9700 to comment on the difference between them? I thought I read somewhere years ago that while the 9900 is Vifa's top offering, most people prefer the 9700 to the 9900. That was the opinion of an agent at Madisound I talked to a few months ago, too.

aggielaw · « **Reply #18 on:** 3 Jul 2005, 04:58 am »

Okay, anyone interested in building the Murphy XO for me? The commercial engineers I've talked to are talking prices way out of what I'd spend on a $1500 pair of speakers...

Rocket · « **Reply #19 on:** 3 Jul 2005, 09:33 am »

Hi,

I am currently building a zalytron speaker kit and i am having a company build the xovers for me for $110au. Try contacting a speaker repair company like i did or possibly a diy person with the skills to do the job for you.

It shouldn't be too hard to organise.

Regards

Rod