[Jabroni]

I just got my B60 back today after sending it in for the DAC upgrade and despite the very unpleasant purchase experience (James, I think AF might need a vacation) I was ready to be mightily impressed, especially after all the rave reviews but right now I'm just hoping that the majority of you DAC owners can honestly tell me that there is a SIGNIFICANT improvement over time because at the moment I'm not impressed at all.  To be perfectly honest, I feel like I've wasted $1 300 because to my ears, there is absolutely no material difference between switching from the DAC inside the B60 and the analogue output of my Sony JA20ES MD recorder / player used soley as a DAC.  The source is a Sony RDR 900 DVD recorder / player with the Bryston DAC getting the coaxial feed and the JA20 the optical feed.  

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it sounds bad - the well built, 20lb, 6 year old JA20ES uses the same DAC and output stage that was in the $3000 Sony XA7ES CD player which was rated Class A by Stereopile. I'm not a happy camper because as per James Tanner, the Bryston DAC and output stage are supposed to be the current state of the art; the XA7ES was more or less state of the art 6+ years ago.  

Questions for Bryston DAC owners...

a) should I just relax and give it a couple of weeks or were you blown away by the upgrade right from the start?

b) How long have you had your DAC?

c) Has the sound of the DAC improved over time?

d) If yes, approximately how many hours did it take before you noticed an improvement?

d) What DAC or CD player are you comparing it to?

If you're wondering, for the past 3 hours, I've been comparing DACs listening to everything from hard rock to classical - some of it well recorded, some of it not so well recorded - just stuff I like.  

As for my ears, I can't say whether or not they're golden but my B60 didn't need to be broken in any more than the 100 hr Bryston burn in for me to be able to instantly recognize that it was leagues better than the receiver it was replacing.  Same thing for my PSB Stratus Silvers which were replacing PSB Century 600s.  That's why I'm very concerned; those upgrades put a huge smile on my face from day 1; there was no need to strain to hear minute differences (as I'm doing now with the DACs) because they were material improvements that you'd have to be half deaf not to hear or appreciate.

[elcaptain88]

I bought a B60 in 2001 & had the DAC added last summer.  I would say that on most discs, the improvements were subtle - more noticeable on better recordings.  Detail improved a bit, passages became a bit clearer and on well-recorded music everything seemed a bit better.  Definitely not a night & day difference.  I really haven't noticed any other changes due to break-in time, etc.  When I had the upgrade done, I was comparing with a Rega Planet 2000 & Njoe Tjoeb player (w/o upsample) - I felt the Bryston DAC was an increment better than these two.  I've been generally pleased with the upgrade & I like the fact that I don't have to worry about a finicky transport skipping, etc. on an expensive cd player - now I can just buy a cheap DVD player if my current transport (the tjoeb/marantz) craps out, which has happened to me twice w/ other players.  I'd also add that Bryston's service during the upgrade process left a bit to be desired.

I think making speaker changes, playing with speaker positioning & adding room treatments have a much larger impact on the sound of my system - I've never noticed huge differences when changing out cd players/Dac's.

[ScottMayo]

I just got my B60 back today after sending it in for the DAC upgrade and despite the very unpleasant purchase experience (James, I think AF might need a vacation) I was ready to be mightily impressed, especially after all the rave reviews but right now I'm just hoping that the majority of you DAC owners can honestly tell me that there is a SIGNIFICANT improvement over time because at the moment I'm not impressed at all....

One thing to look at: an optical feed might well be cleaner than a coax feed. If the environment is noisy electrically and the coax isn't well shielded, you're comparing apples to asparagus.

That said, the DAC in the SP1.7 (I assume it's the same as the '60) is (at least to my ears) quite clean and dry. DACs have not changed radically in the last few years as far as I know: you probably aren't going to get much better than something that got rated really well a few years back. You might get different, but if you want purity, you probably won't find vastly better. (People with experience with megadollar Krell and ML gear, feel free to contradict me. If I know I can't possibly afford it, I don't audition it.)

That said, I like to pump digital music from my cheap CD jukebox into the SP1.7's digital processor, and that helps the sound greatly, but my Denon 2900 (with modWright additions) seems to do a more musical job than the SP1.7, so I use analog connections there. I don't believe the Denon is more accurate - "more musical" can mean all sorts of things, and "accurate" is only occasionally one of them, in this price range.

Maybe sure you aren't constrained in the usual places - amp power, speaker ability, room acoustics. That's where the best improvements are generally hiding - and not in that order.

I've never experienced any change in sonics over time from Byston gear. It comes pre-cooked. I wouldn't expect Glorious Changes in the next two weeks.

You could do what all the Real Audiophiles do, and replace the power cord. That always helps.  

[Audiophool]

Just curious. What are your speakers and cables?

[Jabroni]

Just curious. What are your speakers and cables?

Speakers: PSB Stratus Silver i's
Speaker cables and interconnects: all Bryston (from their website)

[pauldixonuk]

Sounds to me like you bought something on spec without first listening to it. My london based dealer couldn't get a bryston pre with built in dac for me to demo, so I passed on it. Despite their harping on about how good it was supposed to be.

Anyway, I don't think bryston are so hot at making preamps. To my ears they sound flat an uninvolving, without much air. That may be technically right, but it's just not musical imo. Pretty similar to an ATC CA2 in fact - ok, but nothing to get excited about.

I will be using a benchmark dac and 7BSST's, plus will demo a wide range of pre's before making a decision. Some valve designs are rather good so far!

[John Casler]

Anyway, I don't think bryston are so hot at making preamps. To my ears they sound flat an uninvolving, without much air. That may be technically right, but it's just not musical imo. Pretty similar to an ATC CA2 in fact - ok, but nothing to get excited about.
.

I might disagree about the "temperature" of Bryston pre's.

Objectively they certainly are the "straight wire with gain" since very little if anything is added to the signal (or subtracted)

Subjectively that is a different story.  Who's to say what "colorations" one might prefer.

I have the BP26DA, and purchased it based on hearing the BP25DA.  

Within a short span of time, I heard the Benchmark, and the Dodson 218 and could not say that the Bryston gave up anything to my ears.

While I could have added the BenchMark, (considered) it meant $1000 for it PLUS an extra set of quality cables (more $$$$) which again can be sound altering.

Who can account for "subjective" preferences, mixed in with listening environment, and total system yield?

For my money, I couldn't be more satisfied, and as a consultant, I can suggest this combo with confidence it will not "negatively" impact the signal quality in any meaningful way.

[Thunder]

Sounds to me like you bought something on spec without first listening to it. My london based dealer couldn't get a bryston pre with built in dac for me to demo, so I passed on it. Despite their harping on about how good it was supposed to be.

Anyway, I don't think bryston are so hot at making preamps. To my ears they sound flat an uninvolving, without much air. That may be technically right, but it's just not musical imo. Pretty similar to an ATC CA2 in fact - ok, but nothing to get excited about.

I  ...

I largely agree with what you're saying and for that reason, I'm searching for a pre to go with my Brystin/PMC system. Please keep us apprised of what your testing and any conclusions you draw. Thanks.

[thomaspf]

There are some nice digital effects packages available. If you like the euphonic distortion of any particulat pre-amp that can be added to your signal in the digital domain and then the Bryston will just sound any way you like. It just does not come with any of these colorations built-in.

The good thing is you can listen to an accurate signal if you like

Cheers

   Thomas

[pauldixonuk]

So far my entire audio chain is totally accurate and uncoloured. Only perhaps the speakers have a very slight signature, but the rest of the electronics are really unobtrusive to the signal. I feel a tiny element of air could be injected with the right pre. Putting the wrong one in there could tip the system towards being too flat / dull. I'm talking small degree's here, not huge dollops of valve syrup going in there. I'm after a pre which could almost be mistaken for an ss design. A dash of cranberry sauce in my rather plain turkey sandwhich.  

[Yogus]

Why not try a TVC-based passive preamp?

The Bent Audio NOH was probably the most popular, although no longer available. There are some other ones ranging from inexpensive to expensive.

[GordonJ]

Why not try a TVC-based passive preamp?

The Bent Audio NOH was probably the most popular, although no longer available. There are some other ones ranging from inexpensive to expensive.

I'd second that - I've been using a Bent NOH with my 3B SST for a while now and it sounds great: pure and clean and clear and really really musical.  There's the Music First Pre available in the UK which uses the same trannies and sounds equally good though doesn't have a remote option I don't think.  John Chapman of Bent is working on a new TVC/pre due around Autumn I think.

As for the original topic, there's certainly a view that quality Dac's (a) haven't evolved that much in the last 10 years, and (b) all sound pretty similar really.  I recently changed my Chord Dac64 (one version of SOTA though not absolute megabucks) for a Monarchy 22B, which was way cheaper and based on older technology.  Certainly there are differences but not night and day and in some ways the Monarchy sounds better in my system - less forward with vocals, a bit 'warmer', more 'real' sounding and tuneful bass, really involving in an intangible way, if lacking the absolute last word in detail.  So I wouldn't becessarily be too surprised at your findings, though I haven't heard either of the dac's in question.  I think the real advantage of the Bryston is that you get a top quality dac in the same box as the pre, shortening the path, saving on cables and you know you're getting Bryston quality/reliability.

Cheers

Gordon

[pauldixonuk]

True, but I doubt the build quality is any better than a benchmark dac1. Plus I prefer the flexability of having the pre seperate so I can change it. One thing that does make a bryston pre better is putting a Whest DAP filter in line with it, for a subtle improvement.

The pre must be remote, so I have already discounted many designs. I also want xlr balanced in & outs. I will be having a home demo soon of...

BAT VK3i, Audio Research LS16mk2, Chord Prima.

[nicolasb]

If memory serves you can actually plug a Benchmark DAC1 straight into a power amp without using a pre- at all. What that sounds like, I don't know. Might be useful for SP1.7 owners, as the DAC1 has balanced outputs but the SP1.7 lacks balanced inputs.

[pauldixonuk]

That's what I'll be doing for a few weeks anyway. It sounds quite good. The bass is quite large but the rest is fairly normal and unobtrusive. Overall it's like an ATC CA2 or bryston 25 pre, but with more bass.

[Jabroni]

There doesn't seem to be many guys with Bryston pres or integrateds on this board with the dac upgrade - or maybe they're too busy enjoying the music to respond:)  Moral of the story; don't make the mistake I made and assume that the dac / cd player you're presently listening to is crap or outdated especially if you're enjoying what you hear.  It doesn't and shouldn't have to cost you $1300 (Canadian including tax) to find out that what you already own is excellent / borderline state of the art.  I can't imagine anyone pairing a bryston integrated or pre with a substandard dac or cd player to begin with (meaning for Bryston to offer a dac upgrade it would have to be a material improvement to justify the charge) which, along with Bryston's reputation for underselling the virtues of their equipment, are just 2 of the reasons's I (wrongly) assumed that their dac would be superior to what I already owned - as the saying goes "assumption is the mother of all f... ups"

I was up Googling all night trying to find white papers or anything I could to explain why my 6 year old JA20ES used solely as a dac sounds identical to the bryston dac and here's what I came up with for those of you who might be interested.  Michael Fremer of Stereopile fame did a review of it in the late 90's for some now defunct on line audio site and he ended up buying the thing(!)  which is no small feat cause he's such a devoted analogue guy.  I remember him writing that he couldn't see how Sony could pack so much technology into the machine and sell it for $700 US and still make a profit (after awhile I think Sony realized MD was never going to take off in NA so it was no longer about profit but all about ego - hey look just how good we can make these damn things sound).

Anyways, the first link is about the JA3ES which was a materially inferior sounding - predecessor to the JA20ES (with typical horrible Sony quality control I might add - I owned it).  However, the article talks about a fairly unique method (at the time) Sony used to deal with jitter...scroll down the article to "Jitter reduction via the sampling rate converter."
http://www.minidisc.org/mj_ja3es.html

Just a few of the sifferences between the 2 models:
The JA3ES had an 18bit A/D converter compared to the JA20's 20 bit (later models had 24 bit A/D conversion) which is one of the reasons why Fremer said he liked the way it recorded his lps.  The JA20 had / has user selectable digital word length input and output from 16 to 24 bit to match your recording source or the downstream dac just like the old Meridian 518.  

the second link is a pic and specs of the JA20
http://www.minidisc.org/part_Sony_MDS-JA20ES.html

this link is a review of the JA30ES a similar machine
http://www.minidisc.org/ja30es_review.html

I just want to be clear - I'm not trying to trash the Bryston dac - it sounds very, very good but no better than what I already owned so this rant is basically because I'm pissed at myself for assuming it would be better.  After reading dozens and dozens of reviews of hi end dacs, I've come to the conclusion that if you read between the lines they basically all sound the same - the differences are microscopic with words like "slightly" and "a bit" used over and over in almost all reviews of dacs from 1000$ to 10 000$ plus - so (potential) buyer beware.

OK, I'm over it....for now!

[Thunder]

So far my entire audio chain is totally accurate and uncoloured. Only perhaps the speakers have a very slight signature, but the rest of the electronics are really unobtrusive to the signal. I feel a tiny element of air could be injected with the right pre. Putting the wrong one in there could tip the system towards being too flat / dull. I'm talking small degree's here, not huge dollops of valve syrup going in there. I'm after a pre which could almost be mistaken for an ss design. A dash of cranberry sauce in my rather plain turkey sandwhich.  

Exactly!

Interestingly, I just changed my transport to an Emm Labs modified sacd 1000. Had a Teac transport with VRDS mechanism previously. I partnered the transport with a Dream Prism DA-1 DAC (high end pro unit) and slave the transport to the DAC's master clock. This change added more air and bloom - no tubes involved here, completely neutral to my ear.

This reafirmed my belief that neutral can range in terms of dryness and ability to engage. I want to be more emotionally involved and remain unconvinced that the Bryston pre amp is the best solution to get me there. I may just bite the bullet (expensive) and get a full emm labs meitner front end (solid state) because I know it has the air, bloom and emotional engagement I'm looking for.

[Thunder]

So far my entire audio chain is totally accurate and uncoloured. Only perhaps the speakers have a very slight signature, but the rest of the electronics are really unobtrusive to the signal. I feel a tiny element of air could be injected with the right pre. Putting the wrong one in there could tip the system towards being too flat / dull. I'm talking small degree's here, not huge dollops of valve syrup going in there. I'm after a pre which could almost be mistaken for an ss design. A dash of cranberry sauce in my rather plain turkey sandwhich.  

Exactly!

Interestingly, I just changed my transport to an Emm Labs modified sacd 1000. Had a Teac transport with VRDS mechanism previously. I partnered the transport with a Dream Prism DA-1 DAC (high end pro unit) and slave the transport to the DAC's master clock. This change added more air and bloom - no tubes involved here, completely neutral to my ear.

This reafirmed my belief that neutral can range in terms of dryness and ability to engage. I want to be more emotionally involved and remain unconvinced that the Bryston pre amp is the best solution to get me there. I may just bite the bullet (expensive) and get a full emm labs meitner front end (solid state) because I know it has the air, bloom and emotional engagement I'm looking for.

[pauldixonuk]

I personally don't think the front end is the place to tweek, to get the emotion from. I think you want an ultra revealing and totally neutral source, like a benchmark dac1, that will not loose any information too early in the chain. I heard this into some active ATC monitors, which are equally neutral and highly revealing. The result of this pairing is the ONLY part of the audio chain you REALLY hear, or adds personality / colour is the preamp. This makes things much easier, as you forget the rest of the chain completely. Therefore you only have to worry about selecting the appropriate preamp to suit your tastes. A few of us swapped out various ss designs and valve preamps into this benchmark & ATC setup. The difference in system sound with each pre swap was mind blowingly staggering. The pre makes an enormous difference! The system could be changed from dull and flat to a live airy colourful sound with twice the width soundstage in an instant, just because of the pre.

This is the route I decided to follow, and the stage I am now at. The rest of my system is sorted out, being neutral and highly revealing. The only piece of the jigsaw left to select is the preamp. I'll be taking my time swapping over the options on a home demo to get it right. It doesn't even cross my mind about changing the other components as imho each stage is perfect so far.

[Rivendell61]

Paul,
I essentially agree with your approach: neutrality at the front end.
One option possible with the Benchmark/Bryston combination is to run one connection via the pre-amp--and another using the unused (RCA or Balanced) DAC1 output, directly to the amp.
Then the 'color'/pre-amp can be switched in or out of the circuit--depending on source, mood, etc.

Have you had any difficulty matching tube/valve pre-amps with the Bryston's low input impedance?

Mark
(love those Maldon Hills....and the water.....)
(edit: too late at night: confused Maldon for Malvern)