Any reason to use a Musical Fidelity Tube Output Buffer?

drystream · « **on:** 21 Jun 2005, 07:09 pm »

I was wondering if anyone has used one of Musical Fidelity's tube output buffers with an AVA preamp or amp. I have a T7 ECR pre and a 550 EXR amp, which I'm very happy with. Speakers are VMPS 626R and Adire Rava sub.

I also use an AcousTech SS phono stage, and was considering picking up the Musical Fidelity unit to place between the phono amp and the T7. Alternatively, I could put the tube buffer between the T7 and the 550 and get any benefits from other sources too, like the CD player or tuner.

The two main questions are: 1) is the tube buffer compatible with the T7 and 550, and 2) would there be any perceived enhancement of the sonics?

The specs on the tube buffer are at the link:http://www.musicalfidelity.com/mf/en/Products/SmallX

woodsyi · « **Reply #1 on:** 21 Jun 2005, 07:34 pm »

I have asked this question before and the concensus was no real enhancement to decent ss gear although it may ameliorate piercing highs on el cheapo ss output stages. It was suggested that I save the money to buy source or pre with tube output stage. It makes sense since signal goes through ss output stage then "reprocessed" through tube buffer. It maybe different if you can replace or bypass your ss output stage with a well designed tubed output stage like Dan does with his mods.

WEEZ · « **Reply #2 on:** 21 Jun 2005, 10:53 pm »

The high input impedence and low output impedence should be compatible with most gear.

My guess is, that the biggest improvement would be seen (heard) between the CD player and the pre-amp. (Depends on your CD player)

For lp's, for close to the same money you could probably get the phono amp section added to your T7 to get tubes into the lp playback chain. Who knows- you might like it better than the Acoustech. Then you would eliminate an extra set of ic's.

Just some thoughts...

WEEZ

orthobiz · « **Reply #3 on:** 21 Jun 2005, 11:48 pm »

I have one in the CD chain: Tosh 4960, Benchmark DAC-1, MF v3 into a AVA T7/550 EXR. I like it but I'm a plug and play guy, don't take things in and out of the system to listen for differences...

biz

Tweaker · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Jun 2005, 12:35 am »

I just sent one back for a refund. Actually made my system sound less tubelike. Didn't really do anything bad and did expand the soundstage a fair bit but overall I didn't care for the effect. Not worth the $400.00 I paid for it. If you are looking for it to add a tubelike sound it won't. It will not emeliorate a harsh or hot high end either, at least not in my system. I would suggest if you want to try a tube output buffer that will sound tubelike that you give one of Space-tech Labs buffers a try. I've heard nothing but praise for the products this company builds and the owner is supposed to be a great guy to deal with. Lots of posts on his gear over at the Audio Asylum.

http://www.space-tech-lab.com/BufferPage.html

avahifi · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 Jun 2005, 10:58 am »

Inasmuch as the Transcendence Seven line circuits (in the T7 SL preamp, T7 EC preamp, and T R-DAC) are self buffering --- have a low output impedance and high output drive current --- due to the patented configuration of our hybrid transimpedence circuit, any additional buffer circuit would be more than redundant.

Any differences you would hear using an additional outboard buffer stage would be bad, as the buffer could not do anything good and would add its own set of nonlinearities to the sound.

Frank Van Alstine

drystream · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 Jun 2005, 01:16 pm »

Thanks Frank, and others, for your thoughts. I'm not dissatisfied with my rig, as is--just idly daydreaming about changes. I should just concentrate on software at this point

Tweaker · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 Jun 2005, 08:46 pm »

I don't blame you for your interest in the Musical Fidelity buffer. It certainly intigued me and since Music Direct has a 30 day money back (no restocking fee) policy it really doesn't hurt to try it. I think the concept is a sound one and in the right system it could be a significant improvement. I have a feeling, though, that it is being better implemented by Space-Tech especially for those who want to add a tube sound to a solid state system that they are otherwise happy with. I didn't care for the MF buffer but some day I may spring for one of ST's buffers and see what happens.
Like you, I am happy with the sound of my system but it's sometimes fun to experiment.

doug s. · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 Jun 2005, 06:15 pm »

i would certainly recommend a tube buffer stage between s/s amp & s/s preamp, or between s/s tuner & preamp, or between cdp/dac & preamp. tho not necesssarily the mf unit. i would look instead for a used ase z-man, or if you want new, a kailin mu-1. why? these are neutral sounding, & about half the price of the latest mf unit. of course, i would also agree that in-home audition is best - ymmv... yes, space-tech is also supposed to be wery nice - but wery expensive - even their least expensive buffer stage is about the price of the new mf unit.

this guy sells kailin on agon, and on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3280&item=5783025258

doug s.

skrivis · « **Reply #9 on:** 23 Jun 2005, 06:30 pm »

Quote from: doug s.

i would certainly recommend a tube buffer stage between s/s amp & s/s preamp, or between s/s tuner & preamp, or between cdp/dac & preamp. tho not necesssarily the mf unit. i would look instead for a used ase z-man, or if you want new, a kailin mu-1. why? these are neutral sounding, & about half the price of the latest mf unit. of course, i would also agree that in-home audition is best - ymmv... yes, space-tech is also supposed to be wery nice - but wery expensive - even their least expensive buffer s ...

And what would this do for me? It seems like a solution in search of a problem.

If your preamp actually needs an add-on buffer, maybe you should look into getting a better preamp? Might I recommend one of the AVA models?

doug s. · « **Reply #10 on:** 23 Jun 2005, 06:53 pm »

Quote from: skrivis

And what would this do for me? It seems like a solution in search of a problem.

If your preamp actually needs an add-on buffer, maybe you should look into getting a better preamp? Might I recommend one of the AVA models?

well, i have no need for a tube buffer between my preamp and amps. my fully-m.a.r.-upgraded melos ma333r preamp is one of the few pieces of equipment that isn't leaving my system any time soon.

now, if i had a s/s preamp, then yes, i would certainly think it was in need of upgrading.

but a cheap fix would be a tube buffer.

now, for source equipment, like tuna & cd (and turntable? i never tried), tube buffers can be beneficial *regardless* of what pre ya use, imo. but, as i said, an audition would certainly be worthwhile, depending on specific source, & system synergy.

doug s.

skrivis · « **Reply #11 on:** 24 Jun 2005, 02:48 pm »

Quote from: doug s.

well, i have no need for a tube buffer between my preamp and amps. my fully-m.a.r.-upgraded melos ma333r preamp is one of the few pieces of equipment that isn't leaving my system any time soon. now, if i had a s/s preamp, then yes, i would certainly think it was in need of upgrading. but a cheap fix would be a tube buffer.

now, for source equipment, like tuna & cd (and turntable? i never tried), tube buffers can be beneficial *regardless* of what pre ya use, imo. but, as i said, an aud ...

Ah, so you think that tubes are superior to SS? Kind of a blanket statement there...

As for source equipment, if your preamp is good, how would adding a tube buffer help?

I really do see these tube buffers as a solution in search of a problem. If your source and preamp are good, you don't need 'em. If your source is not optimal, adding a tube buffer wouldn't seem to be of any benefit - assuming your preamp is good.

If tube buffers are giving you some kind of benefit, then your preamp is obviously junk - to put it bluntly.

On the other hand, I do think that buffers for the tape loop on a preamp are a good idea, but few preamps have them.

skrivis · « **Reply #12 on:** 24 Jun 2005, 02:53 pm »

Quote from: doug s.

system synergy.

What's this "system synergy?"

Is it some kind of reviewer-speak? Where you match a yin preamp with a yang amp? Chocolate-sounding speakers with peanut-butter speaker cables?

doug s. · « **Reply #13 on:** 24 Jun 2005, 03:03 pm »

Quote from: skrivis

Ah, so you think that tubes are superior to SS? Kind of a blanket statement there...

As for source equipment, if your preamp is good, how would adding a tube buffer help?

I really do see these tube buffers as a solution in search of a problem. If your source and preamp are good, you don't need 'em. If your source is not optimal, adding a tube buffer wouldn't seem to be of any benefit - assuming your preamp is good.

If tube buffers are giving you some kind of benefit, then your preamp is obviously junk - to put it bluntly.

On the other hand, I do think that buffers for the tape loop on a preamp are a good idea, but few preamps have them.

yes, preferring tube preamps is a blanket statement - one that covers *me* quite nicely, thank you.

there *is* one s/s preamp i would like to check out - the ayre k-1x. mainly cuz tube lovers seem to like it.

not sure if it will ever happen, tho - it's too spendy for me to yust plunk down the cash for an in-home audition, even for a used sample.

re: your other comments about my preamp, & tube buffers being a solution in search of a problem, well, i will yust attribute that to your ignorance. obviously, no experience is inwolved.

thing aren't always as simple or straightforward as they seem, especially in audio.

re: your comment about tube buffers being good for preamps w/tape loops - not sure i can see the difference between using a tube buffer here, vs between source & preamp, other than the fact that it can be switched out when not wanted. but, unlike something like a dbx dynamic range expander, which i find useful only a small percentage of the time - ie: compressed recordings or compressed fm radio - i have never heard a good tube buffer impart anything negative.

ymmv,

doug s.

doug s. · « **Reply #14 on:** 24 Jun 2005, 03:29 pm »

Quote from: skrivis

Quote from: doug s.
system synergy.

What's this "system synergy?"

Is it some kind of reviewer-speak? Where you match a yin preamp with a yang amp? Chocolate-sounding speakers with peanut-butter speaker cables?

what is the point of this question?

doug s.

WEEZ · « **Reply #15 on:** 25 Jun 2005, 02:33 am »

On another forum, a poster had a situation where a high output Z tubed CD player was being used with a low input Z receiver. 2k into 10k.

A buffer helped to minimize the impedence mismatch. So in my previous post I suggested that MAYBE a buffer might work well after a CD player- depending on the CD Player.

I think what skrivis was referring to re: tape output buffering is valid. Most tape circuits are simply a direct path from the source to the record output. Without a buffer curcuit, the source is directly driving the input of the the pre-amp AND the input of the recorder at the same time- hence the possibility of an impedence problem.

A buffer unit could be a benefit if you use a passive volume control (in lieu of a pre-amp) into a low input z amplifier.

But I would agree with the fact that if you don't have an impedence problem, a separate buffer stage will likely subtract from the fidelity- unless, of course, you want to 'color' or change the sound. In which case, maybe a different source or pre-amp might accomplish the same thing.

Who knows....

WEEZ

skrivis · « **Reply #16 on:** 27 Jun 2005, 01:08 pm »

Quote from: doug s.

Quote from: skrivis
Quote from: doug s.
system synergy.

What's this "system synergy?"

Is it some kind of reviewer-speak? Where you match a yin preamp with a yang amp? Chocolate-sounding speakers with peanut-butter speaker cables?

what is the point of this question?

doug s.

Just curiousity. I was wondering what it was.

skrivis · « **Reply #17 on:** 27 Jun 2005, 01:10 pm »

Quote from: WEEZ

On another forum, a poster had a situation where a high output Z tubed CD player was being used with a low input Z receiver. 2k into 10k.

A buffer helped to minimize the impedence mismatch. So in my previous post I suggested that MAYBE a buffer might work well after a CD player- depending on the CD Player.

I think what skrivis was referring to re: tape output buffering is valid. Most tape circuits are simply a direct path from the source to the record output. Without a buffer curcuit, the source is ...

You understood my post perfectly.

skrivis · « **Reply #18 on:** 27 Jun 2005, 01:25 pm »

Quote from: doug s.

ing aren't always as simple or straightforward as they seem, especially in audio. ...

Things are often made more difficult and obscure by "audiophiles." I've found that many things _are_ simple and straightforward.

Adding "tube buffers" is a good case in point. It's either added coloration that you prefer _or_ it's fixing something that's wrong with your preamp.

If it's added coloration, then maybe you'd be better off with a different preamp that has more of that "tube" sound.

If it's fixing something that's wrong with your preamp, maybe you should get another preamp.

Adding a bunch of tube buffers is a pretty inefficient way of solving your problem. If nothing else, it's expensive.

Hmm... I guess once you add in all those tube buffers you then have to select the perfect interconnects for use with them. No wonder nothing is simple.

skrivis · « **Reply #19 on:** 27 Jun 2005, 01:37 pm »

Quote from: doug s.

yes, preferring tube preamps is a blanket statement - one that covers *me* quite nicely, thank you. there *is* one s/s preamp i would like to check out - the ayre k-1x. mainly cuz tube lovers seem to like it. not sure if it will ever happen, tho - it's too spendy for me to yust plunk down the cash for an in-home audition, even for a used sample.

Why do tube lovers like a preamp that's likely to be unstable?

The designer is either unaware that you can't have "zero-feedback," or he's lying to you. He's pandering to those who think that any NFB is somehow evil. (And pandering is the right term indeed.)

What's "high speed circuit board material?" Do they treat it with go-fast juice or something?

That Ayre thing is probably not for you anyway. They do something that "eliminates all wiring" and you'll be adding lots of wiring back in with your tube buffers.

When they make claims that are utter bullshit, you can eliminate them from further consideration. You can't trust them. They're either lying to you, or he's clueless himself.