[John Casler]

John,

When using something such as the TacT that does time and phase alignment as well as the room correction, you can have your crossover set higher and still not detect the sub.

When I had people over, they would ask me if the subs were even on!!

I had the Largers crossed over as high as 120hz or 130hz using a 10th order crossover at times.

George

Hi George,

I was actually talking about using a Mono-sub like Daryann, with the JVC.  If he crosses at 100Hz and has his sub in the corner, it may pull a bit.

[ctviggen]

I think George had stereo subs.  For a single sub, I think that between the speaker positioning helps lesson the localization effect.  

For a relatively inexpensive solution, I'd go R-DES and crossover the sub as high as you can.  This way, you'll also get some flat bass.  I would also get a dedicated sub amp, if you don't have one.  (Although even this "cheap" solution might cost $700 or more for R-DES and a sub amp.)

[woodsyi]

I know Warner can't say it but he is running a special on the R-DES currently.  Given your current limit on the budget, I would check out A'gon for used pro amp with high damping factor for the sub to be used with R-DES.  Tact would be better but cost much more, would obviate the processor on the receiver and you would still need amplification for the sub.

[CornellAlum]

I have a dedicated sub amp, the one the BC reccomends built into an external enclosure someone made for it.  It is the 1000w class G AB amp from pe.

Daryan

[zybar]

I think George had stereo subs.  For a single sub, I think that between the speaker positioning helps lesson the localization effect.  

For a relatively inexpensive solution, I'd go R-DES and crossover the sub as high as you can.  This way, you'll also get some flat bass.  I would also get a dedicated sub amp, if you don't have one.  (Although even this "cheap" solution might cost $700 or more for R-DES and a sub amp.)

Unfortunately, when I visited Joe this past weekend he didn't have RDES hooked-up.  I did get a few minutes to play with the software.

I found the software easy to use, but somewhat limited in its capabilities.

If you are more technically inclined, I think you can get better functionality via Behringer or similar gear for the same or less money.

Of course, I have no idea on the sound quality...I will report back on that after I hear it.

George

[ctviggen]

I think it only has 4 bands of EQ:

http://www.audioc.com/accessories1/rdes/rdes.htm

Although realistically, that's not bad if you're looking at under 100 or even 150-200Hz.  Four bands would take out the biggest peaks and perhaps help with the dips.  If you can use it on the sub only (don't play the other speakers full range), I think it has the potential to help a lot.  I'd like to hear it, too, although I'm probably going to wait until I can afford a more expensive solution for the whole range.

[warnerwh]

The Rdes has four bands of parametric equalization adjustable for frequency and Q upto 120hz. Also the crossover is adjustable for slope and frequency upto 120hz.  For the money it's a bargain for how much it helps the sound. Running my RM 40's full range with a sub bass quality has been improved considerably, much more than the 399 would suggest considering that many people spend more on cables.  The Rdes is completely transparent. Measure your bass response in your room and unless you have a Tact or something even with bass traps you've got some large peaks and dips. A Tact is in my future but even a used one is around 2,000.00.  For now I'll stick with the Rdes as most of the problem is in the bass anyway.  This is in a dedicated sound room with four bass traps btw.

[ctviggen]

Are you running your RM40s full range and using the subs to supplement the bass, or are you running your RM40s small?

[John Casler]

I might add that the R-DES is an excellent, Digital Equalization System (DES), but it is not a "crossover" in the sense that it does not offer "high pass" to the mains but only "low pass" to the subs.

So it is Low Pass only.

I have used mine with the mains operating "full range" and "high passed" (via a seperate x-over) and if you run the mains full, then you need to feel around a bit, for the right curves (which is pretty easy with the computer interface) since the Low pass only affects the Sub(s).

Great little units.

[CornellAlum]

edit

[CornellAlum]

OK, update time so as not to confuse anyone that the midwoofer is at fault.  I had the opportunity yesterday seeing as I ate something and had to come home for the afternoon , to get a chance to really play around with the recording I was using as well as specific settings on the panasonic.  Truth be told, it was a big fat digital clipping issue I was having due to the unity gain at -20 on the panasonic.  I was feeding the panny a 24/96 field recorded signal, which is truly uncompressed in it's purest form.  I am sure most of you listen to cd's etc, which are compressed to the hilt in order to give the perception that the music is louder, when in fact, at least IMHO, it is just compression that gives the ear this perception.  In order to acheive that loudness with uncompressed, unaltered music in it's rawest of forms, I need to push the panasonic past -20 on the dial, which when I am bouncing levels close to zero if not over, causes a big fat digital clip and thus, the midwoofer distrots at any level past -20.  It is fine at -21=, just not past -20.  So the post where I said it couldn't be digital clipping, well, as Nancy Grace said last night re: the MJ trial, I eat a big nasty, bad tasting crow sandwhich

I think my only solution to the problem is seperates, and while this is not the most attractive option to me at the moment, may be the only solution.  I am going to build a hypex amp as my first DIY project and go from there, though this will be a long and exspensive proposition.  I wish there was a way to just get more power from the panny, though I doubt that is possible.  Can anyone think of any other solutions for my conundrum.

And to quote Wayne of Bolder, "I figured as much, you just listen to damn loud."  You'll have that when you go to over 50 concerts a year and your ears start to suffer


Thanks again for all of the help...


Daryan Lenz

[csero]

I wish there was a way to just get more power from the panny...

You can increase the PS voltage by using external SLAs. The standard PS max voltage is 42V. It can tolerate 5*13.6V SLAs ( ~250 W peaks ) but at 6*13.6V it gets really hot and the thermal protection shuts it down.  

This is a generic problem with "digital amps",  the clipping is fast and nasty. A 100W specd digital amp  can produce about the same subjective undistorted volume as a 30W SS, or a 10W tube, because of the much more benign overdrive characteristics of the latter.

[CornellAlum]

How would the dc to ac voltage conversion take place when going external sla to internal iec/ac power connection?  I know one could use a covertor, would that not decrease efficiency on the sla's?

[csero]

How would the dc to ac voltage conversion take place when going external sla to internal iec/ac power connection?  I know one could use a covertor, would that not decrease efficiency on the sla's?

I mean feed the power output mos-fets on the power board with DC from the SLA, and use the built in PS for the other circuits. You also have to upgrade the supply capacitors, because they rated 50V.

[dwk]

I mean feed the power output mos-fets on the power board with DC from the SLA, and use the built in PS for the other circuits. You also have to upgrade the supply capacitors, because they rated 50V.

On my XR-25, battery power to the outputs is a really easy mod, as the mosfet supply runs across a easily accessable wire jumper. I *think* the XR-45 is similar, but I don't know about the newer units.  I'm actually running off a single 12V sla, and if you don't need any more power it's a dead-easy of achieving a large increase in sound quality.

If you run a bunch of batteries in series, you'll really want to watch the series resistance of each unit.  Small/cheap batteries can have ESR of 10+ milliohms, so 5 in series puts you up pretty high.  Larger batteries have ESR vals down in the 2-3 range, but now you're talking some non-trivial cash for 5 of them.

[brj]

If I remember correctly, the amps in the Pannys are 100W into 6 Ohms... isn't this a bit large for battery power?  You'd need an array of car batteries to feed them, I would think...

[CornellAlum]

I might try this sla thing.  I really need another 50 watts or so, more like 100 more, but I digress.  What is the pcb number to pick up the jumper to rig in the dc supply?