corner or against a wall?

Rashiki · « **on:** 13 Jun 2005, 03:59 pm »

Hi! Apologies if this is a stupid or commonly asked question, but I haven't found much info on it. I have a small room (roughly 11 feet by 11 feet with 8 foot ceiling) that I am turning into a two-channel audio room. I have a small integrated tube amp and a pair of bookshelf speakers on stands. Originally, I was planning on putting the amp and other gear on a rack in the middle of one wall with the speakers towards the corners -- probably a foot from the wall in either direction. However, now that I'm putting it together, I'm thinking that it might be better to have the amp and rack in a corner and one speaker along each wall, angled towards the listening position.

Has anyone had any experience with this sort of setup? Would I be setting myself up for a bad acoustic experience with this corner idea?

Thanks,
-Rob

ScottMayo · « **Reply #1 on:** 13 Jun 2005, 04:50 pm »

Quote from: Rashiki

...I have a small room (roughly 11 feet by 11 feet with 8 foot ceiling) that I am turning into a two-channel audio room.... Originally, I was planning on putting the amp and other gear on a rack in the middle of one wall with the speakers towards the corners -- probably a foot from the wall in either direction. However, now that I'm putting it together, I'm thinking that it might be better to have the amp and rack in a corner and one speaker along each wall, angled towards the listening position.

This is going to be a tough room in general. 11' in both dimensions is going to result in some high peaks in frequency response. The effect at around 50, 100, 200 and 350Hz is going to be noticable. So the first step is going to be room treatments: flat panel absorbers and bass traps. Ask about buying or building these.

If you can move to a different room - give that a try, too. Big is good, and unequal dimensions is always better than equal.

As for the speaker placement, on paper, the speaker-on-each-wall arrangement is likely to be bad - but it depends on a lot of things. Get some long speaker wire and arrange a way to roll your speakers around the room easily, and experiment! You might find that having the speakers on the same wall, at least 2' from the side walls and 3' from the walls behind them, works out ok: and then you might not.

Rashiki · « **Reply #2 on:** 13 Jun 2005, 05:19 pm »

Thanks for the advice. Unfortuately, I live in a very small house, and the largest area is alreay devoted to a five channel home theater setup. The small square room is the next largest area that can be devoted to audio. I am planning on buying or building acoustic treatments, so hopefully I can overcome some of the limits imposed by the room. I have a SPL meter (the older radio shack model) and I'm looking for some software to use it to measure in-room response more accurately than with my ears.

Here are some rough sketches of the layouts I was thinking of, just in case it wasn't clear from the description:

Bingenito · « **Reply #3 on:** 13 Jun 2005, 06:05 pm »

With either setup you might want to move your chair out past the middle of the room and also move the speakers out from the wall.

Room treatments will be key. Some tube traps in the corners and panels at the reflection points will certainly help in a small square room.

BTW no room is perfect. Work with what you have an enjoy!

youngho · « **Reply #4 on:** 13 Jun 2005, 08:08 pm »

Have a look here, particularly slide 43: http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/Loudspeakers&RoomsPt1.pdf

Also, http://www.audiosold.com/lrs1.htm

I have also seen other users report that diagonal setups work well for them. You should definitely still treat the room, however--I'd think that you'd want extensive treatment of the corner behind the listener for bass and first reflection absorption.

Young-Ho

ctviggen · « **Reply #5 on:** 13 Jun 2005, 10:38 pm »

I think the problem with diagonal systems is that you can't plug the room dimensions into a calculator and figure out where the room modes are going to be. All the calculators assume a square room with speakers somewhere near one end of the room. They're not made for diagonal systems. Symmetry certainly helps, though. If the room really is that small, try both positions and see what you like. In my previous rental house, I moved all the equipment from one wall to another and got a tremendous boost in sound quality. Where I am now, there's really only one wall on which my system can go, so I don't have that option. Also, if you're going to get a program like ETF, you can take some measurements at each position and see what's better. Also realize that you might want to move your seating position around (the easiest way to do this is scrunch down to put your ears at listening level, then move your body around).

John Casler · « **Reply #6 on:** 13 Jun 2005, 11:22 pm »

Where is the "door" leading into and out of the room? and does it open "in or out"?

toobluvr · « **Reply #7 on:** 13 Jun 2005, 11:32 pm »

I use a diagonal setup and get really SUPERB results.

I think a lot of it is just getting lucky with the room acoustics.

I listen in my living room and it is a bit tricky in terms of size, open spaces into other areas, and the walls available for an audio setup.

Check out the photos in "My Gallery" to get a good sense of my situation and setup.

I am very fortunate in that I just plopped the spkrs down where they fit best ergonomically into the room, and pretty much got good results from the get-go. I spent very little time fussing with positioning.

The room response is no worse than plus or minus 3db over the entire frequency range........including -2db at the 20hz point (with a sub, of course)! This is incredibly good.....especially considering that I have done absolutely nothing to acoustically treat the room.

This was a refreshing change from an acoustical nightmare of a NYC apt that would not yield good results no matter what I did, and regardless of the gear I owned. I spent 10 years struggling with this room, so I figure the audio gods now owe me something.

I tried a diagonal setup there too, and it didn't work. But then again, neither did anything else. I had to move to get good sound!

Give the diagonal a try.
There's noting to lose and possibly lots to gain.
You may not be able crunch numbers, or use the various analytical tools to assess a diagonal setup. But your ears will tell you if you are on the right track. They don't lie, so just trust them.

Good luck!

scottpretti · « **Reply #8 on:** 13 Jun 2005, 11:37 pm »

Found this at Decware in the articles section. It has some info on diagonal room setup.

HOW TO SET UP A DEDICATED LISTENING ROOM
WITHOUT FANCY TREATMENTS

http://www.decware.com/newsite/mainmenu.htm

Rashiki · « **Reply #9 on:** 14 Jun 2005, 05:04 am »

Excellent advice! Thanks, everyone!

Turns out I was a bit optimistic with my estimate of the room measurements -- I measured it this evening and a closet eats up some of the space, leaving me with 9.5 feet by 10.5 feet of useful space.

Here's a more accurate sketch showing the door and closet. If I go diagonal, the bottom left corner will be the center. If I stick with a flat wall as the back, I can use either the top, left or bottom wall. The top wall is half window -- there is a venetian blind on it, but I won't be able to put any additional treatments there.

ctviggen · « **Reply #10 on:** 14 Jun 2005, 11:25 am »

toobluvr,

How are you measuring your room? Do you use something like ETF?

As to the Decaware article, I wish the author would have included some acoustical measurements of his treated and non-treated rooms and with the two different positions he discusses. It would be helpful to see what really happens in those situations.

toobluvr · « **Reply #11 on:** 14 Jun 2005, 04:22 pm »

Quote from: ctviggen

toobluvr,

How are you measuring your room? Do you use something like ETF?

Nah!
I'm primitive.
Radio Shack meter + frequency sweep CD.

8thnerve · « **Reply #12 on:** 16 Jun 2005, 01:49 pm »

Quote from: Rashiki

Excellent advice! Thanks, everyone!

Turns out I was a bit optimistic with my estimate of the room measurements -- I measured it this evening and a closet eats up some of the space, leaving me with 9.5 feet by 10.5 feet of useful space.

Here's a more accurate sketch showing the door and closet. If I go diagonal, the bottom left corner will be the center. If I stick with a flat wall as the back, I can use either the top, left or bottom wall. The top wall is half window -- there is a venetian blind on it ...

I would put the speakers along the long wall (left), sit in front of the edge of the closet (right), and use a nearfield setup in that room. Toe in your speakers until they are almost pointing right at you. An equalateral triangle or even a little wider is likely to give you the best results in this room.

And yeah, room treatments would help.