[chadh]

I think I'm  the worst sort of audiophile.  Well, not even an audiophile...I just hang out on forums with them.  What does that make me?

I had some spare time today and went into one of the hi-end stores near me.  It was maybe the fourth time I've ever been in there.  To be honest, I've never found it a very comfortable place, mostly because I'm convinced that I know almost nothing.  So, when you combine my ignorance with my limited budget, the people there remain friendly, but not completely welcoming.  But maybe I'm just sensitive.

Anyway, I try to compensate for my ignorance by trying to understand as much as I possibly can before I walk into a place.  That's why I hang out here - reading, asking a few questions.  I realise that nobody can ever tell me what is "good", but if I can work out WHY people like a certain thing, and others like an alternative, it gives me some indication of what qualities the equipment may have.

Then I make a choice, usually without a traditional audition (due to pretty limited options in my area).  Has this worked?  Well, I can honestly say that every single purchase I've made has increased my enjoyment of the music I play in my home.  But I have no idea what my alternatives would have sounded like.

Anyway, it's obvious that this is a silly way to approach things, and that I need to listen to equimpment.  The more equipment I listen to, the better.  And that was the point of my visit to the store today.  I have a nagging problem with my system (too much gain), and an obvious way to fix it (get a passive pre).  But I've really listened to almost no preamps other the the one I have in my current system.  So why not talk to the pros, and have a listen to things?

That's what I did today.  Two thirds of the way through, I reflected that this particular experience was useless.  While I listened to different preamps, they were in different systems, and those systems were nothing like mine.  In fact, nothing in the store was even vaguely similar to my equipment (save for the CD player, which I use only as a transport).  

Regardless, I pressed on.  After all, this was a little bit of experience.  Right?

But at the end of the day, the experience was truly confounding.

I listened to two systems:  (and excuse me, but I didn't even bother to get the model numbers as these things were well out of my price range.  My wife would kill me if I even mentioned an $8k piece of equipment)

1) Wadia CD player -> Acoustic research pre (around $5.5k retail) -> Mark Levinson Amp -> (relatively modest) Martin Logan speakers.

2) All Mark Levinson system (including an $8k pre-amp), with what seemed to be a pair of the same ML amps as in system 1 used to bi-amp the top of the line Vandersteen speakers.

All of this listening was done in one of their listening rooms, with extensive wall treatments.  They spent quite some time trying optimally to locate the chair in which I was to listen (and the imaging in both cases was pretty decent).

I told them I listened primarily to jazz, so they put on some Patricia Barber (whom I've never really enjoyed).

I didn't like either system at all.

I mean, in both cases there were things that they did wonderfully.  The bass was soooo lovely on the second system.  And some of the percussion in the first system just jumped right out at me - I felt as though a bunch of those nonesense words that audiophiles seem to use to describe sound suddenly made some sense.

But it worries me that, ultimately, I just didn't like what a mega-buck system seemed to do for me.

I came home and slipped in my single Patricia Barber CD, at least so I could vaguely compare to the sounds I had heard.  And foolish though I feel, I swear I liked the way my system sounded MUCH more than either of the other two systems.

(I use a Rotel multi disc player -> monarchy dip -> bolder modded smART DIO -> sugden headmaster -> CI Audio VMB-1s -> Von Schweikert VR-1s).  

Do I have cloth ears?  Should i sell all my stuff and buy something at Best Buy?  Or am I likely suffereing the effects of bad room treatment in the store, or some other common malady?  Or is it feasible that a system, randomly pieced-together by someone with almost no clue, for around $4k could compete with a system like 2 in which each compenent cost more than my whole system (and the speakers, many times more)?

I guess I'm wondering what I should learn from this experience.

Chad

[maxwalrath]

It sounds like you learned you can save yourself some cash and not buy a new preamp...

[WEEZ]

Interesting post, Chad.

Lots of $$ doesn't always "do it", does it?  

Based on your system description, I wouldn't say you have 'cloth ears' at all. In fact, seems like a real nice system.

I've always found that 'some' really high buck stuff can sound souped up. You know, sounds great at first but soon gets tiring. There are many modestly priced components that sound 'natural'. To me, that's where it's at. Natural reproduction. Some might call it neutral. Whatever.

Whatever you call it; you know it when you hear it. That's all that counts. I'd say your system is a keeper if it pleases you. You don't have to please some other audio nut with your money.

Enjoy,

WEEZ

p.s. too much gain? how?

[jules]

Chad,

you might be an audio sales-persons nightmare but it's a pity there aren't more audiophiles able to avoid getting swept up in the hype surrounding the supposed wonders of various whizz bang products.

Your system could well be the match of something many times more expensive [though I'm not familiar with the components].

Congratulations on one of the most honest posts I've seen here

jules

[Scott F.]

Hiya,

Too much gain?

Try a pair of these......



http://mcm.newark.com/NewarkWebCommerce/mcm/en_US/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=27-4035&N=4

[Jon L]

There's no cure for personal tastes.  You should be happy if you can enjoy music through what you have now and don't let the upgraditis bug bite.

BTW, it takes an enormous amount of time and effort to set up one system and tune it to your tastes, especially if cost is a concern.  

I consider myself to be a long-time audiophile (started early), but it's literally taken me years and years of twiddling around to tune my current system to where I like it.  Can't expect an audio store guy to do this for you, mainly b/c they have to set up many different system combos for customers and b/c they don't know what your tastes are..

[Carlman]

A couple of things... (maybe a few as I tend to be wordy..)

First off, I applaud you for seeking out answers by visiting stores, reading forums, and trying to make sense of it all..  I will tell you, having a hifi buddy helps a lot and I had that... A suggestion: Try to find a local audiophile club... Meet your fellow hifi enthusiasts.  

Secondly... Going to 'the pros' is a quite a compliment to most people I've met that sell hifi.  There are a few good ones but overall 'pro' is the last word I'd use.  They are generally 'pro's' at selling what pays them the most.

Your system sounds like a good match of what you've gleaned, read, and put together.  No, you shouldn't sell it all.  Why would you?  What you heard wasn't better... Think about what you heard and observed.  Try to be objective about what you liked/disliked without emotion.

Personally, I'd say the ML's were to blame.  You may not like the sound of that speaker. (I certainly don't)  On top of that you listened to a CD you wouldn't normally... You should always bring your own, BTW.

I've found the best way to go to a hifi store is with a purpose... As in, you want to hear 2 brands of speakers compared... or 2 cd players... or whatever.  Keep it simple and specific so you can learn something and at the same time not irritate the salesman to the point of asking you to leave...     Take small bites when chomping on the hifi learning experience.... and digest them nice and slow.

Hope this helps...

-Carl

[PhilNYC]

But it worries me that, ultimately, I just didn't like what a mega-buck system seemed to do for me.  ...

I think the important thing to remember here is that, just like systems at every other budget range, not every "mega-buck system" sounds the same.  One of the reasons there are so many companies in high end audio is because so many people have varying individual tastes.  "Mega-buck" gear is no exception.

[Danberg]

Too many variables when listening to two completely different systems.  I've also found it best to take two different pieces of equipment and compair them when all the other components remain the same.  That will make it obvious the different sounds each of the components have.  However, I'll warn you in advance, it's quite likely the sales people won't like moving equipment around.

Then take the piece home and audition it in your own system.  The "synergy" of the new component may or may not be what you like with the rest of your system.  But from the comparison at the store, you will have a sense of what that particular piece's characteristics are.  You then will be closer to making a judgement not only on what you like but get an impression of what that type of sound does to the "synergy" of your existing system.

Also, I like your honesty in the description of your frustration.  I remember being there many times myself.  But when you get the right combination for your likes, nothing else compairs to the excitement & enjoyment you will feel when listen to your music!

[Inscrutable]

Chad,

You don't have to like it more just because it costs more - sometimes a LOT more.  Invariably at CES many rooms just leave me cold, and there are a small handful that do it for me.  I've heard one or two that were almost magic.  There is rarely any significant correlation with price, at least in relative terms.

I'd guess the more experienced you get, and/or the better your tastes and sensibilities are defined, the more exaggerated this phenomenon becomes.

And think of all the extra black or silver discs you can buy with all the jack you save!

[TheChairGuy]

Chad,

Great post - really, enjoyable reading.  I can empathize with most or all of it.

Don't sweat any of it - what you like is what you like.  You're trying to enjoy other gear just 'cause others tell you it's enjoyable.  If it's not, it's not - leave it at that. Maybe your perception of real, live music is warped...but, what the hell, it's your ears and mind - not anyone elses.

These forums are just gathering places.  They serve much the same stuff as any bar would (camraderie, talk, opinion and hyperbole) - except we're all designated drivers in here  

Later - thanks again for the great post and enjoy what you got, trade up if you like, but don't give a shit if it's not world-beating or priced like it.  Just enjoy it; whatever it is. Life is too perilously short to concern yourself about this stuff.

[Carlman]

They serve much the same stuff as any bar would (camraderie, talk, opinion and hyperbole) - except we're all designated drivers in here  ...

Yes, don't drink and post.    

I've done it... and it's just doesn't work.  

[Andrikos]

Chad I congratulate you for not suffering from the "Audiophile OCD".
You are free from it and you should really enjoy that and also feel bad for all your OCD ridden audiophile friends (especially many of us here in the AC).

It's all in the brain (psychoacoustics) my friend. If there was CLEARLY a superior product out there, don't you think people would agree on it?

Enjoy your system, your life, your family/friends etc. and everything else is gravy...

Cheers!

[dado5]

Chad,

For what it is worth I have heard very few pieces of mega buck gear (over $3K or so by my definition) that impress me. Most leave me questioning how the companies develop, market and sell such unpleasent sounding stuff.  

My big  buck listening experience, in a nutshell,  has been that the gear  tends toward a 2D, razor imaging, frequency exteremes emphasized sonic perspective, which I find neither enjoyable or life like.

I have learned not too expect much from uber gear, at shows, dealers or even in homes. Just not my taste I guess.

Rob

[Inscrutable]

Rob,

My big buck listening experience, in a nutshell, has been that the gear tends toward a 2D, razor imaging, frequency exteremes emphasized sonic perspective, which I find neither enjoyable or life like.

FWIW, one of the instances I mention as almost magical was a Walker Proscenium TT, Viva monoblocks and big Zingali (horn) speakers.  Based on your above post, I suspect you would have agreed with my assessment.  Or that of a friend who described the sound as liquid sex.  He was right - though I kept a chair or two distant after that  

[mcgsxr]

I think that your system is a well thought out solution to a need - sound that fits what you dig.  Period.  Forget price, it is far from ensuring great sound, seek what you like, but and keep it, and apologize to no one!

Of course, anyone with a Sugden piece in their stack will get approval from me!

And, to be honest, I have heard megabuck systems that sounded fantastic in the rooms they were in - two stand out for me.  Dynaudio Temptations driven by VTL tube monoblocks, fed by a Cary cd player.  And in a different room some large electrostatics (ML?), fed by YBA electronics, and fed by a Wadia cd player.

Those two are etched in my memory as the best I have heard.  Would I rather own a house than either system?  Of course, so now I am drawn to this arena, based on some excellent experiences buying from the Circles, and doing a little DIY on speakers too.

Do my systems compete with the best I have ever heard?  No, but for the $$ invested (likely around the cost of the wiring in the others...) it is great, and I can have the house to listen in too!

[Tuckers]

Many 'hi-end' stores have crappy sound.  I have found this to be especially true when the store is the kind that sells the big brand stuff.  A certain arrogance can creep that their gear is soooo good, that not much setup and tweaking is needed to extract the best the gear is capable of.

[woodsyi]

Well Mark,  I think house has to come first before audio gear.  I am not so concerned about having a roof over my head as having thumping bass with my music.    As much as we bitch about room modes, what would it take to get good bass in an open field?  

[scottielee]

chadh, you are definitely an audiophile in my opinion, and one skillful and educated enough not to give in to hype created by crazy price tags, sale pitches, magazine reviews...

i shop for equipment the same way you do. besides my speakers, i purchased my system almost entirely without audition. even in nyc, where there are a good number of dealers, it is a real pain, or just not possible, to home audition equipment (e.g. heavy speakers/amps, equipment racks...). i am lucky to say that i haven't made a regretful purchase yet, except for some tubes. i have forums and you good folks to thank.

i came to realize that my ears/my perception of music change over time. sometimes i get very different feelings listening to the same cd through my system on separate occasions. this hobby of keeping our ears happy is not easy to say the least.

best,
scottie

[Parnelli777]

Two HUGE red flags for me would have been the mere presence of mostly Mark Levinson and Wadia gear in your demo session. A couple of the most over-priced, over-hyped brands in existence. I would have ran, not walked away from it. But, I know how it is.

I have a couple of showrooms like the one you mentioned near me, in the SF Bay Area. My friend and I experienced these kinds of places 20+ years ago. We'd go listen for fun, with CDs in hand, and listen to the Levinson equip hooked-up to Wilson Audio, or the latest 500 lb. B&W, Meridian, etc. All with the obligatory $15,000 garden hose speaker wire, and $5000 IC. Systems easily in excess of $100,000. Ah, but these places had other rooms for the, uhh, less financially fortunate, wherein lied the "step above" stuff from the likes of NAD, Adcom, Rotel, Denon, etc. They did this out of pure obligation, not really interested in selling truly good sound for the money.

 These places really catered absolutely to the wealthy customer that was interested mostly in what the equip cost, with the sonic experience a distant second. The mark of a true audiophile.

Certainly, if an amplifier or CDP is really expensive, it must be better. Some of these brands are responsible for what happened 20-25 years ago, and that is, if you priced your gear high enough, it would sell itself. If you priced it even higher still, it would become all the rage in the audiophile world. They were very smart businesses, no doubt.

In the last 10 years or so, the field has gotten a lot bigger, the web certainly has a lot to do with it, DIY'ers, tweakers, small companies making really nice equip for far, far less, and letting word of mouth sell it, just the mass communication alone between people, like this forum, changed the whole game radically.

I also realized after listening in these same showrooms more recently, that a lot of those ultra-expensive systems didn't sound very good at all, in fact, they sounded downright lousy, and absolutely fatiguing. But, I see the same type of customers, nodding approvingly over their impending purchase of $30,000 worth of amplification. These poor fools don't listen to the systems, they analyze them, right along with the dealer who's taught them how, and well.

We've learned that you can put together systems for well under $5000 that are extremely satisfying. Nice tube integrated? No problem, it's actually affordable. Wonderful sounding CDP for under $900, easy.

And that's without being relegated to those NAD, Adcom, or Rotel listening rooms.

And that's got to be a good thing. Probably not for the audiophile though. But for the rest of us, no doubt.