[Slapshot]

I have a relatively small room, 12/5x9.5, and an excellent pair of 300B monoblocks. Several people who are longtime audiophiles (as am I) strongly recommended Daedalus speakers for my situation. I have read most of the online comments and reviews and it seems that only a handful oof people feel that a SET amp can actually make these speakers perform. Even the owner has stated a preference for more wattage than SETs can produce. But here and there, someone says that pairing their SET with Daedalus speakers was magical.

Are these comments only likely associated with people who only listen at low, or at most moderate levels? I'm certainly no headbanger or anything close. While I do listen to moderate levels 75-85% of the time, there are certainly instances where I am going to listen to say, The Who, or yes, Or Led Zeppelin, and I want proper rock music listening levels for the necessary impact.

Any clarifications, experiences or advice greatly appreciated. I plan on making whatever I buy the last ones I will purchase for my upcomingretirement.

[Jarbs]

Like you, I really like my 300b SET amp. It presents in a way that SS, push-pull, or parallel amps can’t. I also don’t listen loudly and describe myself as a micro, not a macro listener. Depth, separation, and inner delicacy are important. However, I keep a high watt SS A/B amp around for rock music. Over time I use it less and less. The ears just don’t like slam anymore.

I had Daedalus Apollo 11 speakers. Excellent and versatile. I used many different amps ranging from 1.5 watt 45 SET to 200 watt SS. 1.5 watts didn’t work on anything but girl guitar material. 3.5 watts 2a3 SET was better, but just didn’t have punch. 8 watt 300b was the first acceptable level of SET power. Bass definition and volume would be ok most of the time, even on more casual rock, but it just doesn’t snap down low like a class A/B amp can - either SS or tube. I tried 20 watt GM 70 SET and 30 watt 845 SET. Each had ample low end heft, but still didn’t snap. Their compromises in inner detail rendered them unacceptable to me.

Perhaps the best compromise amp I used with the Apollo’s was a VAC 200iq (push-pull KT88). It could hit hard with voluminous bass and had tube harmonics and long decay. A Thomas Mayer on hand proved to have superior sound quality overall (more refinement and coherence). Just can’t find everything in one amp it seems.

Alternately, if you are committed to the 300b amps, there are other speakers to consider - DeVore, Audio Note, or Tobian could work well. I ended with Tobian.

A compromise of another kind could be Daedalus with the Spatial Audio Blackbird monos - 300b push-pull by Dan Sachs and Lynn Olson. I may try these myself.

Circling back, if I could only own one amp, it would be the 300b SET. As always, many paths are possible.

[Slapshot]

Jarbs, thanks for your reply and for detailing your experiences. Its greatly appreciated. It sounds like I may still be in trouble with my "just purchased" 300B monoblocks. As mentioned in my original comments, I listen at moderate levels 70-80% of the time, however, if I want to throw on a serious rock album, I want it reproduced in at least something close to the sound level originally intended. It sounds like 8wpc appears to be at the very lowest level of what can effectively drive a Daedalus Muse or Athena, and I don't want to limit myself for what will be a "forever" speaker purchase. 

[Bones13]

I am not going to disrespect anyone who loves the SET sound. I played around with 10 watt Nelson Pass DIY amps for over a decade.

I own the Deadalus Muse Studio speakers, and love them. I bought them when my room size was 9.5 x 14 feet. My room is larger now, but I still love them.

I found 20-40 watts to be the level that I enjoyed my classic rock stuff, even if not over loud. I found this with the AudioNoteKits EL34 amp, and the Aleph J DIY amplifiers.

Differences... If you are a soulful jazz aficionado, the SET amps might be right up your alley.

Now I do prefer some tubes goodness, and got a tubed pre-amp to run my Atma-Sphere Class D mono blocks (100 watt). Best of both worlds to my ears. YMMV of course!

[Ulisse60]

Hello
I have Ulysses speakers in a 12 m² room, and they can be driven according to specifications with amplifiers from 3 to 300 watts.In my experience, a lot depends on the volume at which you listen and the musical genres, but I would never go below 30-40 watts, focusing more on quality than quantity. If you only have 8-10 watts, you risk listening experiences where clipping and the amp's short breath not only make the sound harsh and gradually distorted, but also risk compromising the integrity of the drivers and the amplifier itself.
It's true that the Daedalus speakers are easy to drive, because the crossover is very simple and the impedance doesn't drop below about 6 Ohms, so with amplifiers that have good power output, it's hard to stress the system. However, if you want to turn up the volume or listen to more demanding musical pieces, a handful of watts can be limiting. I prefer to have a margin of safety and peace of mind.
You can see my audio system here  https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=185197.0
best regards Dario

[Early B.]

It sounds like 8wpc appears to be at the very lowest level of what can effectively drive a Daedalus Muse or Athena, and I don't want to limit myself for what will be a "forever" speaker purchase.

What's the point of designing high efficiency speakers if low-wattage amps don't work well with them, even at higher volumes?

There are a hundred other factors to consider than watts alone because not all 8-watt 300B tube amps are created equal. Some of them are much more "powerful" than others.   

[Bones13]

You might look to see if anyone in your area has Daedalus speakers to demo your 300b amps with.

I’m sure there are people who are ecstatic with their low wattage amps with Daedalus, and even less sensitive, speakers. Depends on room, listening levels, music preferences, and what I will call “sound esthetic” preferences (range of tube bloom to clinical sterility). No slight given there. Everyone has their own preferences, and circumstances.

OTOH, these speakers can be driven with much less than the mega watt amps. My 100 watt amps are way more than needed, given an active pre-amp. This opens up a lot of amps 20-100 watts that will work well with Daedalus speakers, but might run of of gas with the more typical 86-89db speakers.

[Ulisse60]

You might look to see if anyone in your area has Daedalus speakers to demo your 300b amps with.

I’m sure there are people who are ecstatic with their low wattage amps with Daedalus, and even less sensitive, speakers. Depends on room, listening levels, music preferences, and what I will call “sound esthetic” preferences (range of tube bloom to clinical sterility). No slight given there. Everyone has their own preferences, and circumstances.

OTOH, these speakers can be driven with much less than the mega watt amps. My 100 watt amps are way more than needed, given an active pre-amp. This opens up a lot of amps 20-100 watts that will work well with Daedalus speakers, but might run of of gas with the more typical 86-89db speakers.

Hello, 
I agree with what you write, and in part my response goes in the direction of listening directly; the best would be to find the Muses or the Athenas from some audiophile in order to evaluate the performance of the SETs. 
The opener should perhaps also tell us that the SET 300 B has, at least, the power output specifications, also because the mentioned speakers are rated at 95.5 dB, less than the Ulysses, so a little less efficient, even though they have half the drivers to move... 
Then the listening distance also affects it; above 3 meters or 10 feet, you lose additional decibels of sound output, so the system could be operating right on the edge of quality and performance. 

Regards, Dario

[Ulisse60]

What's the point of designing high efficiency speakers if low-wattage amps don't work well with them, even at higher volumes?

There are a hundred other factors to consider than watts alone because not all 8-watt 300B tube amps are created equal. Some of them are much more "powerful" than others.

Hello

To my knowledge, high efficiency is positioned above 100 dB, the Musa and Athena are around 95, which is generally an excellent value, also considering their characteristics and size. However, there are still differences which, combined with listening distance, can result in 8-9 dB less output compared to 100 dB. As you know, every 3 dB less halves the power, so it would be interesting to know the rated power and output capability of the 300 B monoblock sets of the opener, and perhaps which music genres they listen to and at what volumes measured in dB at the listening position.

Regards, Dario

[Jarbs]

The 300b is one of the more challenging DHT's to implement as an output tube. The design, driver tube(s), and power supplies matter quite a bit. Knowing which amps the OP is using would help in providing a better response, as there is a great variation in possibilities available.

To parse this further, there is a difference between volume and drive. Usually a 300b SET will have enough voltage gain to play loudly, but it will lack the ability to dump enough current into hungry woofers quickly, so bass response can be ill-defined and/or lack appropriate energy for the program material. Bass driver design, compliance, magnet strength, and system Q (damping, or the ratio of stored energy vs. released energy) matter significantly.

The marriage of amp and speaker in this scenario is quite finicky and matching parameters is all important. I'm not privy to Daedalus design, but I have owned a couple pair over the last 7 years. I don't think the bass driver/cabinet design is optimal for SET amplification when playing hard rock. Driver/cabinet Q is too high, the suspension too compliant. Bass speaker systems with low Q, very high magnetic flux, large radiating surface, and stiff compliance are a better match for lower powered SET amplification, which are low current and low damping factor - a marriage of stiff and loose to achieve average, lol.

However, in practice it's not bad to listen to IMO. Daedalus has implemented a nice design for broad application, but it's not optimal for most 300b SET for driving music. Jazz, vocals, and similar can be lovely. If you want to bang, I'd say 20 watts of quality push-pull minimum. More will be merrier.

[Daedalus Audio]

Hello

To my knowledge, high efficiency is positioned above 100 dB, the Musa and Athena are around 95, which is generally an excellent value, also considering their characteristics and size. However, there are still differences which, combined with listening distance, can result in 8-9 dB less output compared to 100 dB. As you know, every 3 dB less halves the power, so it would be interesting to know the rated power and output capability of the 300 B monoblock sets of the opener, and perhaps which music genres they listen to and at what volumes measured in dB at the listening position.

Regards, Dario

High efficiency is usually considered over 92db. 100db would be extreme high efficiency.
Another important consideration as to how well a speaker can work with a low watt amp (especially tubes) is the impedance curve. The more flat the curve the better for the amp. A 100 db speaker with a curve above 100hz that ranges fro 2-16ohms (not unusual) will likely do less well than a 96db speaker with a near flat curve. So if one is making a judgement based on "specs" one should look at the whole picture.
Of course the best way is to actually audition the speaker with the amp.
For over 30 years the comments about how well Daedalus speakers preform with low watt amps are pretty consistent, especially the last 15 years.

[Daedalus Audio]

The 300b is one of the more challenging DHT's to implement as an output tube. The design, driver tube(s), and power supplies matter quite a bit. Knowing which amps the OP is using would help in providing a better response, as there is a great variation in possibilities available.

To parse this further, there is a difference between volume and drive. Usually a 300b SET will have enough voltage gain to play loudly, but it will lack the ability to dump enough current into hungry woofers quickly, so bass response can be ill-defined and/or lack appropriate energy for the program material. Bass driver design, compliance, magnet strength, and system Q (damping, or the ratio of stored energy vs. released energy) matter significantly.

The marriage of amp and speaker in this scenario is quite finicky and matching parameters is all important. I'm not privy to Daedalus design, but I have owned a couple pair over the last 7 years. I don't think the bass driver/cabinet design is optimal for SET amplification when playing hard rock. Driver/cabinet Q is too high, the suspension too compliant. Bass speaker systems with low Q, very high magnetic flux, large radiating surface, and stiff compliance are a better match for lower powered SET amplification, which are low current and low damping factor - a marriage of stiff and loose to achieve average, lol.

However, in practice it's not bad to listen to IMO. Daedalus has implemented a nice design for broad application, but it's not optimal for most 300b SET for driving music. Jazz, vocals, and similar can be lovely. If you want to bang, I'd say 20 watts of quality push-pull minimum. More will be merrier.

Interesting comments but off the mark as to what we do. I'd be interested in knowing which models Daedalus he had and what amp he was pairing?
Actually our drivers have a very high magnetic flux and a very stiff compliance support.
AS for using SET to play hard rock, you really should stick with horn systems over 100 db that have a flat impedance curve. 
I have had may customers with six figure systems who use SET amps and love the sound.

[Ulisse60]

High efficiency is usually considered over 92db. 100db would be extreme high efficiency.
Another important consideration as to how well a speaker can work with a low watt amp (especially tubes) is the impedance curve. The more flat the curve the better for the amp. A 100 db speaker with a curve above 100hz that ranges fro 2-16ohms (not unusual) will likely do less well than a 96db speaker with a near flat curve. So if one is making a judgement based on "specs" one should look at the whole picture.
Of course the best way is to actually audition the speaker with the amp.
For over 30 years the comments about how well Daedalus speakers preform with low watt amps are pretty consistent, especially the last 15 years.

Good morning Lou,

in the forums I frequent and read, especially in Italy and in Europe, I notice that high efficiency is linked to the possibility of using even just 2-3 watts, and people often talk about horns and speakers that are particularly easy to drive, near 100 dB.
Rightly so, efficiency is not the only decisive parameter, since there are also phase rotations and ease of driving; I can have high efficiency, but if I have a minimum of 2.5 Ohms, perhaps, depending on the musical genres, volume, and the size of the listener's room, there can be significant differences. Not only that, but the amplifier's delivery capabilities are also crucial, and I agree that only by listening in one's own system and environment can the true result of a given pairing between a power amplifier and speakers be appreciated. It remains that between 90 dB and 99 dB, to take a simple example, the same amplifier will perform differently in terms of delivery while everything else remains the same.

If an amplifier is rated at 30 watts, speakers with 90 dB sensitivity will produce a certain sound pressure with that power, while speakers with 99 dB sensitivity would produce a sound pressure that doubles every 3 dB, so equivalent to about 240 watts, assuming all other surrounding conditions are identical, meaning the same electrical parameters, which obviously will never happen, but it still gives an idea of what to expect from amplifier-speaker pairings.
I still think that it's not just the watts that determine the final result, that each listener favors certain sound parameters, and that ultimately careful and prolonged listening is the only way to make a fairly complete judgment. And I’ll leave out other surrounding factors, also because if a system sounds good, let’s say you can perceive it already with a handful of well-known audio tracks! 

Greetings  Dario

P.S.
I apologize for the text; perhaps I am not able to fully express some concepts and my thoughts due to my somewhat limited English! Thank you anyway for the discussion, which allows one to understand and appreciate elements that are not always within one's own knowledge and broadens one's understanding—a key aspect of growing in the Hi-Fi field, combined with listening to audio systems that offer a different musical listening perspective compared to one's own.