[Bemopti123]

How would a system like the following be achieved with the B200s?

http://www.sakurasystems.com/show/stolt.html

It seems like the baffle is open, but folded, towards the back and to top it all out, it is biamped.  

For sure, this ob system seems more decor or space friendly.  I wonder how the B200s would compare with the Supravox drivers.

[barfind]

How would a system like the following be achieved with the B200s?

http://www.sakurasystems.com/show/stolt.html

It seems like the baffle is open, but folded, towards the back and to top it all out, it is biamped.  

For sure, this ob system seems more decor or space friendly.  I wonder how the B200s would compare with the Supravox drivers.

The Baffle is a matter of taste, the electronics is easy. I had bi-amped 12's with the B200. Take a look at mine.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=577

Nigel

[Dmason]

Those would be AER Quasars on top.  About 8 times the cost of the B200, and the Quasar is tipped up too much in the highs and sounded strident to me at least. The B200 is very balanced and easy to implement and listen to.

The B200 sounds quite similar to the Supravox 215 Signature bicone, but with better resolution. The 215 is indeed a very nice driver with lots of Xmax, and 2.2 times the price of the Visaton, which has a better build all around, a more modern unit. 1980 Peugeot 505  vs 2004 BMW Z3. Which would you prefer to drive.

[-Richard-]

Hi Nigel,

beautifully made open baffle design...I cannot help but imagine that the sound
must be incredible...full and rich with a powerful understructure of bass to
create a really effective foundation for the music...

The second image shows what appears to be a very sophisticated 300B
amplifier...can you tell us about that...I am deeply interested in tube
SET designs for open baffle speakers...I am now using a Wright Audio
(no longer in business) Single Ended Pentoid integrated tube amp...
the sound with the Omega's is fantastic...harmonically rich and fully saturated
with instrumental color, throbbing pacing and rhythm, detail galore, a
dimensional sound picture and all the rest of it...

Thanks for the pictures...

I am off to Albuquerque tomorrow to see my dentist...I used to live in Silver
City, New Mexico and need to finish up on work I started before I left...
in a few days when I get back I will start burning in my B200's...

However I am still an active member of the Dark Star Confederation and
will adjust my behavior accordingly...

Warm regards -Richard-

[-Richard-]

Hi Dan,

Your overview of wide range drivers is awesome...it is quite clear you have
been doing your homework with great care and attention to what matters...
performance, cost and value...terribly reassuring to have your narrative
to keep things in perspective...nice that you can create a context for
everything that is out there that is similar to the B200...perfect pitch maestro!

Warm regards -Richard-

[Yu]

I've been following some of the topics here for a while. I don't know anything about technical stuff, but I'm trying to soak up a bit of info by reading what other, more experienced folks have to say. So far, I've followed DMason's enthusiastic posts on the Tripath path to the first gate of "less is more" audio paradise.
My Clari-T is hooked up to my Vinnie Rosso/Scott Nixon DAC, which are hooked up to my touch-screen Mini Mac music "server" and they're all ultimately leading to my new Mini Me speakers. My pair of Visaton B-200's are waiting to be openly baffled, and the amp will probably go back to Vinnie soon for further enhancements. My Sharp all-in-one is in my office and my Teacs are there, too (they're running (shudder) on AC. So, as one can see, I HAVE been paying attention and following the advice and raves of the Circle. I don't think I've been steered wrong.
It's been fun and the stuff sounds good. I'm liking the Clari-T and Mini-Mes a lot (just got the Minis, no 100 hours yet!) However, the "disease" has taken hold so strongly that I almost bought the Behringer today. I have many questions, but the one that's bothering me is this--
if the Behringer Ultra Curve is running on AC, how does that fit in with (or affect) the battery concept and its benefits?
Also, does anyone have thoughts about, or experience with, the "golden ratio" as a design principle for open baffles?

[Yu]

Forgive me. I just realized I jumped in without a "Hello, etc." Also, Vinnie, I know there's only one "o" in Rossi. ;-)

[Dmason]

Hey Yu,

Welcome to the Dark Side of the audio force, where the shortest distance between two points is through a Black Hole  --- in an open baffle. I like and respect the fact that you are a doer. I hope our developments serve to entertain you to your satisfaction.

"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach"  --Rudyard Kipling

The Golden Mean is wrapped up in speaker enclosure design but seems to have made it into the open baffle thing, where I will now attempt to throw it out the window. As we have found, there is absolutely NOTHING that adheres to hard math or physics, except inertia and momentum, I suppose.

The Golden Ratio is expressed as  1.6

1.000 : 1.618  (1.68 =(1+sq.rt.(5)/2)

So, on an open baffle, what you would see would be a ratio of 1.0 from Left,/.6 from the top. Or, 1.6 ht  1.0 wd

Norbert's and my baffle DIMS roughly represent the Golden Ratio but it just worked out that way as more of a "cosmic concurrence" as Fripp would say. What was ultra curious was the fact that Thorsten in the UK, Norbert in Austria, and myself all came up with the same size baffle, and it is very close to 1.6, so maybe there was some mystical explanation for this, but Golden Ratio was not something either were employing, because I ASKED!!

One thing it DOES accomplish is to reduce nulls all around the baffle, the driver would not see two identical radii at any point along the baffle edge, the idea being to offset baffle cancellations so you can theoretically use a smaller baffle.

Class Dismissed: Yu: Cut any size your little heart desires and it will be the right place for YOU to start.

The Behringer DEQ only deals with the digital signal, and has been proven in stock form to Do No Harm. It is an unusually capable unit, and can also store a library of curves, some of which I use for favorite CD's. Imagine an EQ curve stored for a specific album and you get an idea of just HOW flexible the thing is. Further you can EQ for both channels, room adjust with RTA, (they will sell you a mic.) and you can lift the lower FR to compensate greatly for baffle rolloff. Using digital EQ and loading the baffles cornerish, subs become more or less optional... It is made for open baffle use and digital contouring is the future of good home audio engineering. And good home audio engineering gets rid of the crossovers, because IT CAN!!

[JLM]

Yu,

The golden ratio is more important in that "other" speaker enclosure most of us enjoy, the room you're listening in.  It gets applied to overall room dimensions (width, length, height) and speaker placement (between side/front wall placement on the floor and distance of driver between floor and ceiling).

Mark,

I agree, optimize the baffle design first, then try sub/EQ.  Just seems more natural.  My sense is that an OB in the 30 to 40 inch range is a good starting point, but its easier to start out big like you have and cut down than to go the other way.  With acoustic foam/silk covering a smaller baffle should have a higher Domestic Acceptance Factor.

Nodiak,

Interesting to read of such small baffles.  Yes, would be hard to effectively integrate a sub above 100 Hz.  It does provide an idea of what the lower limit of OB size can be.

Bemo,

You can't spend enough with B200/Red Wine products to "achieve" a system like you posted unless you go crazy with the source.  IMO an "ultimate" system along these lines would include dual mono Clari-T, B200s in OB, dual mass loaded transmission line subs using JBL 15 inch drivers (these subs would be quite large) with Red Wine modded mono Teac amps.  Throw in a CEC transport, your favorite DAC and cabling with a digital EQ, and you'd be done for about $7500.  I just can't get past going for the best "bang for the buck" as the sound of most "ultimate" systems turn me off and I'm cheap enough to really value getting 90% of the performance for 10% of the price.  And IMO thats right where Red Wine Audio lives.

[nodiak]

An interesting system with small baffles and big bass cabinets. Good link to Olshers Basszilla, and vintage drivers. I agree about Fostex not enough for ob, going for b200 soonish. Don

[nodiak]

Good morning, oh yah the link  
http://de.geocities.com/peter_rehkop/system.html

[Dmason]

I also wondered when I studied Dick Olsher's Basszilla design WHY he had used the Fostex 208 which has the lowest Q of any Fostex 8" driver, and was meant expressly for horns. Just about anyone who posted online about their build of this design claimed that driver sucked on an open baffle. I wonder why? I am also very familiar with the sound of the 208Sigma and in my opinion, the B200 is in another league. I am well familiar with the JBL midrange drivers, and they are HOT HOT HOT, by comparison, designed for long-throw commercial applications. It would seem that the Visaton B200, the more one looks around, is, by process of elimination, THE best all round candidate for open baffle speaker.

If you notice on the above thread the pix of the old Saba speaker, these are identical in design to the old Siemens and Philips, and identical to the Visaton B200. Nothing new here, just modern design engineering, and no whizzer shout, which, yes, makes a huge difference. Especially with vocals and strings, somehow.

I also agree with the idea of shaping a baffle, digital EQ later if desired; my point is that DEQ is NOT some trinket-y add-on, it is a tool that can pull components and room together into one cohesive sonic entity. Anything that can do that needs to be advocated to those whom have NOT experienced this. The pro audio guys will tell you that they cannot do their job without EQ. Why? Because Every Room Is Different. For any of you figuring out how to budget for something like what we are talking about here, do yourself a favor and budget to include the Behringer DEQ2496 from the start.

 For a transformative experience in sound IN your room, become intimate with digital EQ. Most important is the fact that it can extend the bass reach of the open baffle driver, making it far easier to integrate bass augmentation. In my case at, well, lower than you would think, and therefore making it easier to provide for Full Range Sound which is EQ'd per channel, to a specific room. From a mechanical standpoint, it is almost like tampering with the Q of the speaker, because with EQ you can extract far more lower register sound than would be available relative to the driver's Qts, so, EQ also allows you to VERY effectively use drivers whose Q is lower than you might want. We tried a 12" coaxial with Q=38 or something, and it was turned into a midbass monster, with zero effect on the midrange at all!!

JLM

Your opinion on Pipes for bass is exactly what I have right now, (8"HP metal drivers) and it is the best of all worlds, for all the reasons you prefer them. I can tell you from direct experience that MLTL's integrates beautifully  with OB. I built TWO big ones out of one + sheet of MDF.

[barfind]

this may be old to some, but I have been looking at the Behringer unit for some time. This thread is some 30 pages long but for any who have thoughts about the 2496 being not suitable, you should read it
Dans experience with it adds weight to the equation.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15943&perpage=10&pagenumber=13


Nigel

[Dmason]

Actually, that is the DCX 2496, the digital crossover. No need for that here, although it can help. DEQ 2496 is the unit in question.

It has SPDIF I/O and has been proven to leave the digital signal alone.

[nodiak]

Made a mock up (1/4" drywall, no cardboard around) 24" wide x 32" tall. Drew 9" circle centered at 24". Made it three piece- 11" front, 6.5" sides angled back ~ 30 degrees. Tilted it ~ 10 degrees.
I could live with this. Has width of Nigels. Shorter height remedied by side piece at top. If B200 goes 70 hz could do single sub. Nice  
Don

[Dmason]

Don

Well done!!    Another doer. Now we can move ahead using the anecdotes from the doers, and the theoreticians can follow along and take notes. Soon we can get going with the...

DarkStar Master Class For B200 USERS/ADDICTS

And push this whole study forward en masse...

Good news for today is that although we speak of baffle rolloff, DIM/Fs parameters, what we do not speak of is the fact that as you load baffles ~into corners, 1) increase LF gain""  2) rolloff is slower than you might think, particularly in the lower register. You should be able to quite nicely get away with a SINGLE sub. It has to be a good sub, and it should be a SEALED sub, otherwise.....Mud.

Mxgsr tells me his B200 doesnt exactly suck, and has never sounded better even being run by the cheezy little JVC "executive" stereo.

[nodiak]

Right on !
I have pair of sealed 12" subs in 3 ft3 boxes, (use Meniscus 1284's, apparently part of the AC Titan driver clan/evolution). 70 hz 24db Marchand xo kit to be built, (my shame is deep for not finishing them yet   ), Adcom 555 drives them currently, maybe a tripath could (Teac?). Have plans for mltl cab for same driver which I can start building, 20 hz f3. I'm into getting a B200 within a few weeks. And the Decware Radials I have, love these guys. Getting there speakerwise.
For me this is a long drawn out process (1 year so far, I know some people live it full time) to replace 10 yr. old ss / Scanspeak based system. I'm not a collector or an indulger into components, so every 10 yrs or so I update with what pulls my interest the most. I like Decware and Red Wine ideas it seems.
Very much appreciating this coalition and the internet! 20 yrs ago was shown Speaker Builder mag. and I had my first opportunity to afford something "high end". just another story...
I can sell a few audio things so the change won't hurt a bit.
Next step (without spending money), replace Adcom with Teac on 12", and put SI on mains to see if wattage works. Then mods.
Don

[Dmason]

Don,   Maybe you should think about this "Mod"

Order B200's. Sell everything except one bass driver. Get MDF build MLTL for bass, which is a HUGE trade up in SQ over primitive "subs?" sub stands for substandard, IMHO....Sell Marchand XO, buy Parts Express plate amp of 150 watts. Pocket cash difference, buy beer to quench thirst whilst you cut panels to build bass pipes and baffles.

Mxgsr is working on writing the text on WHY things have never sounded better in his place with this one little change.

Could you please PM me about the MLTL design? I am looking into building a smallish High Performance PA system this summer.

[barfind]

Actually, that is the DCX 2496, the digital crossover. No need for that here, although it can help. DEQ 2496 is the unit in question.

It has SPDIF I/O and has been proven to leave the digital signal alone.

Sorry Dan, excuse my ignorence. I have, all the while had this unit in my mind, must have had a meltdown. Do not pay any attention to anything else I say  

Nigel

[nodiak]

Hey Dan, no worries...everything is going according to plan ...mdf already marked for cuts for mltl, keeping both 12's, for other possibilities...might replace Marchand kit with pre built xo, I like seperate amp but would replace 555 with tripath eventually. Have other equipment up for sale to cover B200's, and Teac mod. Finances ok just a tightwad   !
Wind in the sails !
I'll pm the plan to you tomorrow.
Don