[cheesey]

So would it be accurate to say that those of us who actually audition equipment before we buy are wasting our time as all we need to do is have someone explain data sheets to us and then we can make a purchase based on other factors like aesthetics, cost etc.?

If so, then it certainly makes the audio experience so much easier. It would be interesting and educational to also know what equipment you own.

Not what I am saying. Identify a few candidates that are designed based on solid science and do what they are suppose to do, then listen. Of course some people care more about how something looks than how it performs and believe the more something costs the better it must be. There are class d amps being sold today that outperform amps costing 100 times as much. They might not look as nice and won't impress your friends with their budget cost but they do what an amp is suppose to do supremely well, no more no less: they make a small signal larger, nothing added, nothing removed.

I use Purifi amps. I don't want an amp that adds anything to the source signal and Purifi's performance is second to none. They add no audible artifacts to the output signal. That means I can then flavor the signal to my tastes with dsp any way I like. I use Acoustat 6600 speakers and 4 subs in an active system through an 8 channel OctoResearch dac. My room is well treated.

[rotarius]

Hey Cheesy, I am all for measuring and testing being an engineer and all but I still love my tube amps.  I have tried Hypex amps, they are fine but nothing special.  My vintage Onkyo clearly had a better power supply, more bass heft.  Oh and one more thing, people should know these modules stuffed in a box have no speaker protection.  They will happily pass a large amount of DC.  Anyway, if you are picking up the difference between .01% vs .001% distortion, congrats.  Enjoy the gift. 

[Nick B]

Not what I am saying. Identify a few candidates that are designed based on solid science and do what they are suppose to do, then listen. Of course some people care more about how something looks than how it performs and believe the more something costs the better it must be. There are class d amps being sold today that outperform amps costing 100 times as much. They might not look as nice and won't impress your friends with their budget cost but they do what an amp is suppose to do supremely well, no more no less: they make a small signal larger, nothing added, nothing removed.

I use Purifi amps. I don't want an amp that adds anything to the source signal and Purifi's performance is second to none. They add no audible artifacts to the output signal. That means I can then flavor the signal to my tastes with dsp any way I like. I use Acoustat 6600 speakers and 4 subs in an active system through an 8 channel OctoResearch dac. My room is well treated.

Thanks for the information and listing your equipment. I took a look at the Purifi website which has modules only and then found VTV which makes a finished Purifi amp. I noticed there were wiring options, binding post options and most importantly imo a number of options as to op amps. For those of us who are not technically inclined, how do we evaluate the various op amp options for an amp like VTV? I would imagine there would be variables like this for the various manufacturers that use Purifi modules.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

[JackD]

Nick

You can find the same amps at multiple places like Buckeye, Nord and Apollon with different case and accessory options.  This includes the various Sparkos, Sonic Imagery and OPA op amps and sometimes others.  Just choose the one whose price and aesthetics appeal to you.

[kmmd]

Hey Cheesy, I am all for measuring and testing being an engineer and all but I still love my tube amps.  I have tried Hypex amps, they are fine but nothing special.  My vintage Onkyo clearly had a better power supply, more bass heft.  Oh and one more thing, people should know these modules stuffed in a box have no speaker protection.  They will happily pass a large amount of DC. Anyway, if you are picking up the difference between .01% vs .001% distortion, congrats.  Enjoy the gift.

Whoa I did not know this, so a big thank you.  I can’t imagine risking my YG’s with this. 

I went to all of the west coast audio shows last year and listened to several offerings mentioned in this thread.  I wasn’t impressed tbh.  Hence I bought an AB amplifier weighing 135 lbs which will be delivered tomorrow.  The company of the amp is only 15 miles away from YG and showed with them in Munich last year.  Yes, a Boulder 1160 will be home soon.  My wife and my back will not be happy.


Friday around noon PST.  Lookie what just arrived.    Freight driver, gardener for our neighbor and myself moved this 215 lb crate into the house.

[RDavidson]

Oh and one more thing, people should know these modules stuffed in a box have no speaker protection.  They will happily pass a large amount of DC.

Good to know! But note that lots of great amp designs don’t have coupling caps on the outputs (for protection), because they’re in the signal path which can degrade the intended performance. But yeah, those with direct coupled tube preamps should heed the proper on/off sequence of gear with these class D amps apparently…or risk some fried voice coils. Yes, I’ve been there. Thankfully the speakers were inexpensive and drivers were easy to replace.

[cheesey]

Thanks for the information and listing your equipment. I took a look at the Purifi website which has modules only and then found VTV which makes a finished Purifi amp. I noticed there were wiring options, binding post options and most importantly imo a number of options as to op amps. For those of us who are not technically inclined, how do we evaluate the various op amp options for an amp like VTV? I would imagine there would be variables like this for the various manufacturers that use Purifi modules.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

There are a dozen or more manufacturers that use the Purifi modules. The op amp options are for those who like a certain "sound"- many of the op amps introduce distortion which though it appeals to some people actually measurably degrades the final performance of the Purifi amp. There are some who even offer a tube based buffer for those who prefer their A-1. I personally prefer the options with the least distortion. You can ask the manufacturers which option that may be. Buckeye is one builder with many options at a very reasonable price point while also offering great customer service and support.

[cheesey]

Lemme get this straight, cheesy.

You prefer an amplifier that is “transparent” according to measurements, but go on to say that you use DSP to alter the source signal. To me, altering the source signal (or even having supplemental gear between the source and amp) isn’t good. You’re putting “A-1 sauce on Wagyu” too, but you’re doing it before the steak is cooked.

Others, like me, may prefer to have a “transparent” preamp that doesn’t alter the source signal. If you’d have read my list of gear in my original post, you’d see I use a Benchmark LA4. Source is a Chord Qutest (fed by a Wiim Pro Plus). I also have a Teac VRDS-701 CD player. Not the most expensive stuff, but certainly adequate with respect to measured performance. I then alter the source signal at the amplifier. I know my Pass amps have certain sonic qualities due to their distortion characteristics. I’m putting “A-1 sauce on Wagyu” when the steak is cooking.

Different approaches. Different results. No more. No less.

Where I think we got off track is in your belief that your approach is superior and even tried telling what to buy! In your mind, chefs who don’t follow your recipe are cooking incorrectly. This is rather presumptuous, don’t you think? You seem like a reasonable person, but this attitude is where I and others are bristling against you.

Anyway, maybe you understand my point of view a bit better. I want to choose a new/different “cut of beef” that isn’t going to completely throw-off MY personal recipe. This is why I didn’t simply run out and buy a Hypex nor Purifi. To me, that’d be like buying a cut of beef based on protein and fat analysis. I know what the chefs at ASR would tell me. I am not dismissing that information. I just want to know more from the chefs at AC, even though I know their recipes may or may not resemble mine. Only way to find out is to ask…and hence the purpose of my post.

You miss the point. By having an amp that delivers the original signal without audible distortion, you are free to add the type and amount of distortion YOU prefer, or not. You get to both cook and season your steak. Using a Pass amp gives you a precooked steak which you are then adding the seasoning to- hope you like medium well as you can't "uncook" that steak, you can only add steak sauce to try and cover the taste. A most inefficient method if you prefer adding to the signal in measured and various ways to control the final result as finely as possible. While it is certainly a different approach, it is indeed "less"- and far from optimal.

I can alter the original signal and use dsp to build crossovers and filters to both correct the speakers and the room. I don't add distortion to create a "tube" sound, for example, as is possible- I was simply mentioning this option to "tune" the sound for those who like their distortion.

Having full control over the output is indeed superior. This isn't an opinion, it is simple logic- starting from zero rather than 10 provides a greater range of control. Starting from 0 doesn't "throw off your recipe", it does however give you both more precise and greater control- in other words, greater freedom to have it your way.
 

[Nick B]

Nick

You can find the same amps at multiple places like Buckeye, Nord and Apollon with different case and accessory options.  This includes the various Sparkos, Sonic Imagery and OPA op amps and sometimes others.  Just choose the one whose price and aesthetics appeal to you.

Jack,

After having read the most recent posts today and not being much interested in choosing amps via spec sheets (which I don't understand in detail anyway), I think I'll just stick to the old tried and true method of getting recommendations from guys I trust and just listening to amps in my home.

Nick

[JackD]

Good idea. I've owned amps with modules from three different Class D companies including two that cheesey is pushing and to my ears the best sounding one came from an AC Circle company.

[cheesey]

Good idea. I've owned amps with modules from three different Class D companies including two that cheesey is pushing and to my ears the best sounding one came from an AC Circle company.

And that's the beauty of trying for one's self isn't it?

[Nick B]

I think Cheesey's audience is relatively small. There are many music lovers, but how many dig into specs and even really understand them? My interest has been music for over six decades, and I've picked up more technical information over the years. I do look at reviews and there are certain reviewers that I trust much more than others. There are also a couple of guys on a couple of forums who have auditioned way more equipment than I ever will, who know my tastes in music reproduction and might make certain recommendation based on that. I appreciate their input and recommendations.

When I go to a concert, I'm not thinking about measurements, just about the enjoyment that I am or am not getting in a real world environment. When someone expresses an interest in music and/or my audio system, the first thing I don't do is tell them that they have to become well-versed in specs and technical details.

As Hans Beekhuyzen always says at the end of his videos.... "and whatever you do, enjoy the music"....

[jonbee]

Getting back to the original topic, I've had many "digital" amps going back to a 2000-ish Bel Canto EV200 almost 25 years ago, with stops with PS Audio GCA250 and 500 Icepower amps, NuPrime ST10, Hypex NC400, Nuprime IDA-8 and 16, DAC Maraschino Kings (my fave), in that order. I also had a handful of chip amps. The German  Infineon chips can sound very nice for few $, imo.
At each change I felt the class D were getting progressively better sounding even though the specs were similarly excellent.
I've been retired for 5 years and have simplified my systems, now back to a Nuprime IDA-16 to drive my big rig Avalons with ease and finesse. Not quite as rock solid and focused as the DAC amps, but still very capable as a one box solution.
I felt that starting with the Nuprime and Hypex, Class D gave really good a/b amps some competition on sonics, not to mention efficiency, size and price.
I loved the DAC amps, and was sorry to se them go away. The Purifis look like a winner now, but I've not heard recent Nuprime models.
My office system uses a $900 Yamaha A-S801 class a/b integrated driving modded Revel M16s. This classic a/b amp design has been refined by Yamaha for many, many years, and is highly reliable and bulletproof. It is a real budget sleeper that shows that a well executed big name $$ a/b design can be satisfying musically, even when driving tough loads like my 4 way Avalon Opus. Certainly not as refined as my Nuprime IDA-16, but surprisingly capable of satisfactory sound for 1/3 the price. The system has been carefully matched over a log period and while it cost me about a fifth of my big rig $ I listen to it every day without complaint. So, maybe class D doesn't own the battleground completely yet.
I firmly believe specs have their place, but musical satisfaction is a more elusive target that may never be fully quantified. It is also a more legitimate target for most, with matchups critical to get it right for the listener, not just a collection of "the best" hardware pieces.
As with cars, "the nut behind the wheel" is the key variable. Young people putting a system together should take encouragement from this.

[Tyson]

The new GaN amps like the Laiv monoblocks seem to have finally crossed the rubicon and are on par with the best SS amps.

[RDavidson]

The new GaN amps like the Laiv monoblocks seem to have finally crossed the rubicon and are on par with the best SS amps.

I saw there’s a review for those over at 6 Moons (or maybe it’s just a preview). It has been a few weeks since I read it. Thanks for (re)putting them on my radar.

[kmmd]

The new GaN amps like the Laiv monoblocks seem to have finally crossed the rubicon and are on par with the best SS amps.

Thanks Tyson.  These look promising and have protection circuitry as well.  There’s also a 30-day return period.  Several positive videos have been posted.  They may be good for my second system, but I wish several of these amps can be auditioned side-by-side.

[Nick B]

I saw there’s a review for those over at 6 Moons (or maybe it’s just a preview). It has been a few weeks since I read it. Thanks for (re)putting them on my radar.

Another review on the Laiv mono amps by the iiWi Utube Channel. He does excellent reviews imo.

https://youtu.be/BZ6tNvwPKbQ?si=QUdbLRvNjJJ7jWwW

[ServerAdmin]

I've removed some contentious posts.

From now on, posts in this thread must stick to the subject and leave the personal (whether targeted at an individual, or a group of people) out of it.

I'd like to remind everybody that AC not just allows but encourages diverse opinions about audio. Just stick to the actual topic. Thanks

[fredgarvin]

Jack,

After having read the most recent posts today and not being much interested in choosing amps via spec sheets (which I don't understand in detail anyway), I think I'll just stick to the old tried and true method of getting recommendations from guys I trust and just listening to amps in my home.

Nick

in recent years rolling op amps has become a thing. Not just in amps, but in DACS etc. From what I've seen, it reminds me of guys tube rolling, in the sense of plugging them in and see how they sound and people also have various ones that they swap in and out for flavors. I can't say that I've ever heard of anyone checking their distortion specs to choose one.