[youngho]

Howdy,

I was wondering if anyone had any experience with using cork floor tiles on walls, a la Proust. I currently share an office but will soon have it to myself, and the walls seem to be *exceedingly* thin, almost acoutistically transparent.

I don't have the option of building a room within a room. Completely covering the walls with end-to-end Real Traps would be prohibitively expensive. I was idly considering the cork option, unless anyone can suggest better alternatives. I'm looking for something relatively low-cost and easy to implement.

I suppose that one unexpected bonus would be that I could use the cork-lined walls as extremely large message boards.

Please tell me what you think. Thanks in advance,

Young-Ho

[ctviggen]

Are you looking to prevent sound from getting out of the room or for improving the sound within the room?  Realtraps are really for the latter and not the former.  For the former, another layer of drywall (perhaps put up with isolators) would help.  Beyond that, I'm not sure, because reducing sound transmission entails mass and/or thicker walls.

[Ethan Winer]

Young-Ho,

> the walls seem to be *exceedingly* thin, almost acoutistically transparent. <

As Bob explained, acoustic treatment and absorption generally do little to reduce sound leakage. Mass is the key, and the cheapest mass you can buy is plain old sheet rock.

--Ethan

[youngho]

Thanks for the replies. I'm looking to reduce sound transmission into and out of the office. Unfortunately, I don't have any DIY skills, so I don't really have the option of putting up drywall or sheetrock, which I consider on the milder end of the spectrum of building a room inside a room. We rent the office space, anyway.

I thought that the mass of the cork tiles combined with the multiple small pockets of air inherent to cork might represent a relatively cost-effective, easy to implement possibility. I don't know if acoustic paint products do much, but maybe I'll have to settle for that.

Young-Ho

[Ethan Winer]

Young-Ho,

> I thought that the mass of the cork tiles combined with the multiple small pockets of air inherent to cork might represent a relatively cost-effective, easy to implement possibility. <

If only...

There are products that claim to increase isolation, but they're ineffective. Surely any sort of paint is far too light weight to do anything at all.

--Ethan

[Carlman]

If you mount the cork to thin sheets of plywood and then hang/screw them to the walls, that might help.  

-C

[Red Dragon Audio]

Can you rebuild the current walls?

if you could do that, then you could rebuild it so the walls just around your office are physically seperate from those of the offices on either side. The dead air space between the offices and the seperation of walls will do wonders to cut down on sound transmission both ways.  Along with that you would want to maybe add some soundboard and thicker sheetrock to the walls on your side and then think about using some Owens Corning 705 placed around the room as well with the insulation side facing into the room.

Now if this is too much to do (and it sounds like it is) take Carlman's suggestion but instead of plywood and cork, just hang big 4' x 8' sheets of OC 705 all around the room and away from the walls. You'll still have air gaps and therefore sound leakage so it won't be entirely resolved but it might be better than nothing.

Are you trying to set up a nice listening room in your office?

[youngho]

I'm sorry, my writing skills must be deteriorating, as I must be completely unclear. Let me start again:

I have an office that I currently share. Soon it will be all mine. The walls are thin. Very thin. I can hear phone conversations from the adjoining offices. I would like to find a cost-effective--actually, make that cheap--solution that would help reduce sound travelling through the walls. We rent the office space, and I have no construction skills.

My primary goals:

1. Reduce noise transmission from adjoining spaces
2. Be able to listen to music at low volumes without disturbing adjacent folks (I have a nearfield setup, but I can't use headphones)
3. Do as little as possible for as little as possible

As we rent our office space and I have no DIY skills, I do not have the option of building a room inside a room. By this, I mean that I cannot construct new walls, whether they are isolated from the existing walls or not, to create a smaller room inside the existing one. In theory, I do understand that it would be ideal to create a room that is, say, 1-2 feet shorter in height, weight, and length than the existing office with higher mass walls that are as acoustically isolated as possible from the existing walls, with the space made as airtight as possible. Certainly, if I could, I'd build a dedicated listening room outside the office building entirely. Unfortunately, this isn't practical for me...

I was hoping for a relatively practical solution, even if it's far from the most effective one. For example, would "acoustic paint" like SoundCoat have any effect at all? It seems as though physics would dictate that any effect would be minimal, but if there's ANY audible effect whatsoever, it's still pretty cheap and easy to repaint the walls, so I'd be willing to do it.

I could buy lots of Sonex or acoustic foam, but it doesn't seem like that would be super-cost-effective for this purpose, though maybe I'm wrong. If Sonex would be audible effective, I might spring for a few hundred square feet. Those "acoustic blankets" from Markertek are hideous. The acoustic office panels are prohibitively expensive. Attaching lead sheet to the walls is not an option.

I have no experience with foam vs cork for the purpose of isolation. Based on the mass of cork and the air pockets inherent to the material, it seems possible to me that cork floor tiles attached to the walls might be more effective and less expensive than thicker Sonex. I can wallpaper over cork if necessary. I cannot do so for Sonex.

Would attaching plywood panels to the walls and the cork tiles to the plywood result in an audible improvement over cork alone, if cork is even worth considering? I don't know. Does anyone have any experience besides Marcel Proust? Cork seems to have worked for him. Haven't we made any advancements in this area during the last century?

Thanks!

Young-Ho

[John Casler]

I could buy lots of Sonex or acoustic foam, but it doesn't seem like that would be super-cost-effective for this purpose, though maybe I'm wrong. If Sonex would be audible effective, I might spring for a few hundred square feet. Those "acoustic blankets" from Markertek are hideous. The acoustic office panels are prohibitively expensive. Attaching lead sheet to the walls is not an option.
...

Hi Youngho,

You might find that aquiring some large "moving blankets or pads" (used to cover furniture when you move) hung from the wall cover (cause they're ugly too) with a cheap acoustic foam would give you a "high percentage" absorption/isolation value.  I think the "layering" would give you a better effect than a single material.

Those moving blankets "soak up" the Highs and are not to bad down through the mids allowing the wall itself to have an easier job.  If you can hang two layers of the pads. it is even better.  

They are cheaper and probably just as good as the "acoustic blanket" from Martek

Then a nice Wedge Foam placed over it, would look more attractive and add to the HF absorption.

Just a suggestion

[Red Dragon Audio]

Howdy young,

I knew my suggestion was over the top when I wrote it...and no your writing skills aren't bad...just mine. You were quite clear.
 

So isolation is what you are after...Paint won't change anything but will waste your time and money.  Cork is going to do something but again will be more of a time/money waster than a real effective method of isolation in your current situation.  It is better to do it right the first time as that will save you time and money.


First off when you say "cheap" we need to put a dollar amount to that.  Otherwise we're just taking shots in the dark and hoping we get close to the target.  A budget will help us make real world suggestions that are effective and useful to your specific situation.

You might consider consulting with the owners of the offices next to you.  If you can hear them,  they can certainly hear you.  They just might be inclined to share in the cost of isolating the offices.

How long do you plan to be in this office? If you are there for only another month or something short like that, then maybe it's not wise to invest in something you don't own.

In fact, ask the owner/landlord what he is going to do to fix the noise isolation problem.  If he doesn't want to do anything, maybe suggest that you will handle the problem but only if he is willing to discount your rent to make up for the cost.

You aren't by chance working/living in Salt Lake City are you?  I have quite a bit of OC703 1" and 2" that we could play around with as well as OC705.  Not that you play with this stuff but you know what I mean.

[Ethan Winer]

Young-Ho,

> The walls are thin. Very thin. I can hear phone conversations from the adjoining offices. <

In many offices there are drop ceilings, and the walls do not go all the way up to the "real" ceiling above. In that case the primary sound path is through the tiles, over the wall, and down through the ceiling tiles on the other side. If you have drop ceilings, you should climb up on a chair and see if the walls stop short of the real ceiling. If so, you'll have more options that are easier and more effective than rebuilding the walls.

--Ethan

[youngho]

Howdy,

Thanks for the replies.

Ethan, thanks for pointing out the ceiling--I did not consider this at all. They are indeed drop ceilings as you describe. What would you suggest?

John, thanks for your suggestion. However, I'm not sure about the appearance of acoustic foam mounted to moving blankets tacked to the walls. I did not mention that I need to be able to meet with folks in my office on an occasional basis.

Heavystarch, thanks for your queries. I plan to stay in the office for the indefinite future--at least several years, possibly several decades. I have not spoken to the adjacent folks, but I seriously doubt that they would have an interest in sharing the cost.

In terms of layout, the basic dimensions of the space can be seen in this screen capture: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=529 (sorry, I don't have access to layout or photoediting software here).

Segment AB is the doorway to the hallway. Sgements AA, AD, and AH adjoin other offices. Segment AG is an exterior wall with two windows. Segment AA currently has a door in the middle of it, which will be removed during some remodeling that will occur in the fall. I thought that this remodeling might represent a good opportunity to either repaint the office or implement some sort of acoustic isolation solution.

In terms of contents, I plan to move my desk to segment AD closest to the doorway. I would like to place a chaise (possibly a Le Courbusier knockoff) along segment AG for those times when the office is slow so that I can read or perhaps perform closed eyelid examinations. Segment AH will have bookshelves and horizontal filing cabinets, with several chairs and an end table placed at the corner with AA so that I have short meetings or discussions in the office.

I have a pair of BlueRoom Minipods (I would have preferred PMC LB1s, but they were a bit much, and the Minipods are reasonably cute, especially for the price I got them for) on my desk for occasional nearfield listening. I may bring my Grados and also get a headphone amplifier at some point. Although the speakers would benefit acoustically from an alternative location firing along the length of the room, this setup represents the best compromise for now.

The walls are approximately 8' tall, so that total treatable surface area rounds up to about 250 square feet. At this point in time, I'm looking to spend less than $1000, preferably less than $500, with all installation to be done by myself. I could paint or stain, I could learn to put up wallpaper, but I can't manage drywall or sheetrock for the reasons previously discussed.

As far as I can tell, cork ranges from $1-4 per square foot, depending on the thickness, putting it into my range. It's not beautiful, but it's acceptable to me, particularly because I could theoretically stain it or wallpaper over it. Sonex looks a bit funny, and I wonder if I might complete the look by putting on a straitjacket once the walls are covered, but it seems to go for $1-2 per square foot, also well within my range.

Unfortunately, I am far from Utah! Thanks for the offer, though. I hope this provides any information that you might want to know.

Young-Ho

[Red Dragon Audio]

Hey Young,

Too bad you're not here close...that would make it easier.

That's not a bad budget to work with $500-$1000.  

I would seriously talk to your office neighbors as well as the landlord. Between the four of you, the work will go more quickly, save you all money and benefit everyone there.

otherwise they are just freeloading and they don't even know it (or maybe they do I don't know).

I would personally not be offended if I was asked to share in the burden to improve the office but it would be nice to know the landlord would also help out as it is his property and he should be more responsible for those kinds of things.


anyway,....enough of the part.

Ethan makes the best point; if the walls don't continue past the ceiling tiles you have found your biggest culprit.  

If that is the case, you should be able to just buy pieces of 705 and 703 to place above the short walls. This will block and absorb much of the sound you are now hearing.  this will be in your budget and isn't too hard to implement.

Hop up on a chair in your office and lift up one of the tiles next to the wall.  If you can see the tiles to your neighbords office then go ahead and measure the distance between the wall and the actual ceiling. That will be the space you need to fill with 705 and 703.  703 is cheaper but a bit more pliable and may not be as easy to work with in that space.

I bet Ethan probably has other clever ideas as well.

[youngho]

Thanks for the suggestion. As the office is not that well ventilated, I am a bit concerned about handling fiberglass in terms of skin, eyes, and lungs, although perhaps this is excessive. How long do the fibers persist in the air before settling, and how does one go about cleaning up afterwards?

From your post, it looks as though you suggest balancing segments of fiberglass on end, i.e. vertically, to try to create a fiberglass "wall" vertically extending the actual office walls. Wouldn't it be easier and approximately equivalent to lay the fiberglass horizontally over the existing ceiling tiles to make an additional layer? It would seem as though the size of each segment of fiberglass would be limited by the size of the ceiling tiles in order to fit through the gaps in the ceiling. I'll have to borrow a ladder tomorrow to see if this is feasible.

Young-Ho

[Red Dragon Audio]

Don't worry too much about handling fiberglass.  It won't kill you to lick it all day...you'll just have an itchy tongue.  

But seriously, the main precaution you should take is eye protection as that's where fiberglass can do the most damage in the shortest possible time. Don't rub your eyes with your hands either as that is a quick way to transfer it.

Unless you are cutting the stuff with a bandsaw and inhaling the dust....you should be just fine.  Hell I handle it with bare hands and a tee-shirt with no problems; but then again I am  Hercules...

Just have a vacuum there to clean up if you plan to cut it.



How you get the fiberglass up in that space will be up to you.  You can get these panels in very manageable sizes of 2ft x 4ft.  They are relatively light and can be securely anchored with minimal effort.

I think that extending them up to the actual ceiling will provide the best way to block sound from creeping into your office.  And your suggestion to lay them flat over the tiles is a good one as well but remember you would have to do it over the entire expanse of ceiling as the sound is penetrating the ceiling tiles and drifting to the adjacent office.

Maybe you could get away with just some of the inexpensive pink insulation you can find at Lowe's.  Layering it between the walls and the actual ceiling will help block much of the sound transmission.  Those bags are only $30 each and depending on how much of a gap there is, you might be able to get this whole thing done for under $300-$400.

carry on!

[Ethan Winer]

Young-Ho,

> They are indeed drop ceilings as you describe. What would you suggest? <

I suggest you climb up on a ladder, lift a tile, and have a peek.

If you do find the walls don't go all the way up, you'll need a rigid barrier. Not "rigid" fiberglass, but MDF or plywood or the like. And it should be sealed all around with caulk. Again, you need to block the sound, not absorb it.

Depending on the size of the space that needs filling, you may be able to use 2x4 foot pre-cut pieces that Home Depot sells. Even if you have to hire a handyman type to do the work, it shouldn't break your budget. Unless the wall is 70 feet long.

--Ethan

[youngho]

Thanks again for the helpful advice. I appreciate everyone's practical experience because I don't have any.

The actual ceiling is about 3 feet above the drop ceiling. Unfortunately, there are metal beams, ventilation tubing, and other things up there that would make it difficult to construct a sealed rigid barrier or to use vertically oriented fiberglass panels to extend the height of the walls. I do see some of that pink stuff scattered here and there.

Would higher mass or acoustic ceiling tiles have any significant effect?

Young-Ho

[Ethan Winer]

Young-Ho,

> The actual ceiling is about 3 feet above the drop ceiling. <

So are you confirming that the wall does in fact stop short of the real ceiling?

> Would higher mass or acoustic ceiling tiles have any significant effect? <

Better tiles might help a little, but not nearly as much as the mass of 1/2 inch plywood.

If the wall really does stop short, then you can probably make an improvement by placing 1/2 inch plywood boards on the top of all the tiles. You'd have to cut them to fit into the grid, which I believe is 1/4 inch shorter than the expected size. That is, 2 by 4 foot tiles are really 1' 11-3/4" by 3' 11-3/4". Home Depot sells wood already cut to 2x4 feet, so all you'd have to do is trim the 1/4 inch off each edge. Or hire a handyman type to do that for you.

I assume / hope the added weight of the plywood will be okay.

--Ethan

[youngho]

I'm sorry if I was unclear. The wall does stop short of the real ceiling, which is about 3 feet above the drop ceiling. I will keep the plywood suggestion in mind for the remodelling. Thanks again for the tips,

Young-Ho

[abyss]

Hi:

Let me apologize in advance for being  negative, but I don't think there is anything you can do for your situation that won't involve spending over $1000.00.  But, negative can be positive if it saves you from wasting time and money.

I have a lot of experience with studio construction, both pro and amateur.

Cork will do next to nothing, except that it wil smell foul and impart a rather odd coloration to the room which will likely mess up your mixes.

Professional studios stopped using cork back in the Seventies.  

But, if you are locked into your space for the forseeable future and are commited to doing something, then here is what I would do:

This is easy to do for a DIY'er, but as you're not, you could just hire a carpenter or handyman for $15.00 to $20.00/hr (Los Angeles wages).

This plan will entail making modular wall panels that you can take with you when you move, so you can hang onto the investment.

The panels must be built so that they mount very tightly together, to prevent sound from getting through the cracks.

Basic panel construction in a nutshell:

Use a backing material of oil impregnated masonite or plywood or particle board.  The masonite is the cheapest and will stop sound the least. Oil impregnated masonite, sometimes called pressboard, is not hard to find.  but if you call a building suppply store and ask for it by name, they may actually have it but  not know what you are talking about.  The oil impregnated type is darker in color than the non oil type, being a very dark brown, and heavier.

These materials come in 4x8 sheets.  Also purchase 2x2's, and make sure they are straight by laying them on the smooth flat floor of the supply house and eye them.

Make a frame of 2x2's around the periphery of the backing board, that is, the masonite or other wood.  Mitered joints are better.  Also, one 2x2 horizontally across the middle.  You have to work on a flat floor, usually an interior floor, as basement or garge floors ar not that level.  The reason you have to work on a flat floor is that any warpage in the floor will be copied into the panels assemblies you are building.  When done, you may still see a slight warpage in the finished panels, say 1 indh or so, but that's ok as that small amount of warpage will be flattened out when mounted.

Next, obtain Owens Corning 705 insulation.  Just call Owens Corning for a sales rep in your area, and he can tell you where to get it.  You may have to buy a full pallet.  Sell what you don't need to other recording bro's.

These 705 sheets are 49"x97".  Trim them to fit inbetween the 2x2 framing.  Glue in place with 3M90 spray adhesive.  3M77 spray adhesive will not hold.  Use a liberal amount of the adhesive.

Next, you wrap the panels with fabric, preferably with an underfabric:  the underfabric can be found at uphostery supply places - it's like a thin fabric/foam, about 1/16" to 3/32", and is slightly stretchable.  This underfabric is used to A) give the panel a nice look when finished B) adds 1 additional layer to trap fibergals particles.

If you're really concerned about fibergalss particles, then also use an under layer of very thin plastic, 0.5 mil drop cloth will work fine.

Then, a final wrap of the outer layer fabric.  It is best if the fabric you choose is stretchable to some degree.  Almost any fabric will do, as most sound will penetrate any fabric.  Some fabric will slightly restrict the amount of highs that get through, but this is hard to calculate if you're not an acoustician so I wouldn't worry about it.

Note:  depending on you're situation, you may have to use fire rated fabric - these can easily be found on the internet.

The fabric is wrapped around the frames like stretching a canvas - many painters know how to do this.   I recommend a power staple gun to staple the fabric to the backside, being very neat and trimmed in your work, as if you were German or Swiss.  The fabric staple to the back side should not show any appreciable lumpiness.  

Most of your walls will be covered with full panels, with partial panels at edges.  Or you may want to plan it out so partial panels are in the center of each wall - that could look better.

The panels are not attached to the existing walls.  Instead, you run a header or rail along the ceiling that allows the panels to be pushed up into place and captivated.  Then, some kind of baseboard or footer is added to keep the panels together and pushed against the wall at the bottom.  The footer could be nailed to the floor, if permitted.

Sometimes the panels have to be nailed to the wall, and in that case you should choose in advance a coarse weave fabric so that finishing nails can be inserted inbetween the weave and nailed to the wall behind, with the heads of the nails disappearing through the weave.  You'll need to get creative on driving those nails without messing up the panel's appearance.

As for the ceiling:  An acoustic drop ceiling as you describe is very sound permeable, so you have no choice but to put panels on the ceiling also.  Because these are over yourhead they have to be very firmly attached for safety.  You may have to restrict yourself to the masonite here for weight reasons.  Because they need to firmly attached, you'll have to use fairly large gauge hardware, and there may be no way of hiding it, so, you just have to be creative in where you put the fasteners and how they look.  Sometimes just using finishing washers under the screw heads is all you need to do for a pro look.  One collegue used a hole saw to cut 1.5" circles out of 1/4" plywood, stained them to match, and used them as big washers.

Generally, the walls go up before the ceiling, because as I mentioned you have to mount a header to the ceiling to hold the vertical wall panels.  Sonically, the room will be tighter if the ceiling goes up first.  But then the headers have to be mounted to the edges of the ceiling panels, which will mean there will be screw or nail holes in the edges of these panels if you later move them and want to use them in a different configuration.  In the worst case you just wrap new fabric on them.

When done, the room will be fairly dead sounding, especially in the mids and highs.  You should then add some hardwood "sculptures", even just swaths of wood, in an attractive way to bring up some relflections again.  Just keep adding wood here and there until the room sounds right in the mids and highs.  Varying the thinkness and placement of the wood and the equipment racks, as well as bookshelves and pictures will create diffusion which is a good thing.  "Found wood" sculptures are getting trendy now - just mish'mashes of wood scraps stained different colors and artisticly combined.

Additonal isolation in the ceiling can be acheived by packing the empty space above it with regular "attic" type insulation bats.  Pack it real tight.

If you move in the future, even if you go to a larger space and don't need the panels to be fitted tightly to one another, you will no doubt be able to use them as spot deadening and diffusion  panels, or as "clouds" over the mixing position.

End of story.