[I.Greyhound Fan]

Hi all,

Has anyone bought or had a chance to hear the new Buchardt E50 speakers?   I was wondering how they sound compared to the S400MKII or the MKIISE.  Or just your thoughts on them.

Unfortunately, I am probably going to retire in 1.5 to 2.5 years and I am going to downsize and sell off my Pass X250 amp, BAT VK51se preamp and Magnepan 1.6 speakers.  My wife is tired of having doors as speakers in our family room.  I will keep my 2 compact Martin Logan subs, DAC and analog system.  We will probably end up in a smaller house or upscale apartment.  So I want to buy a bookshelf in the $4K to 5K range that plays well at low volumes and has room filling sound which is a must.  The E50's supposedly sound great at low volumes and put out great bass.

I was considering the cheaper S400MKII SE until I read 3 pro reviews on the E50's which are nothing short of spectacular.  I am also considering the Arendal 1528 Bookshelfs but the E50 seems too good to be true.  I will probably be driving them with a tube integrated of 50 to 100 wpc.  Something like a Cary or an Ayon Scorpio if I can get a good deal on a used one.

I am not really a fan of the looks of the E50 but my Maggies are nothing to look at.  I prefer the looks of the S400MKII.  But it is the sound and performance that counts.

Thanks,

Larry

[JLM]

Have you considered the Buchardt A10?  Same price/frequency response but active! 

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Have you considered the Buchardt A10?  Same price/frequency response but active!

I have actually and I am intrigued by them.  But I have always wanted a true tube amp as I like a colored warmer non fatiguing sound.  Certainly from a convenience stand point, powered speakers make a lot of sense.  I am also familiar with the other virtues of powered speakers.  I do like tubes but have had them only preamps, dac's and phono preamps. They can be a pain for sure.

My wife would really like a pair of bookshelfs that she can move around by herself should something happen to me.

I am also considering a pair of Magnepan LRS's to replace the 1.6's.  I so love the Maggie sound.  They have a very small foot print, probably about the same as the E50's on a good pair of stands.  I already have the dual subs.  They certainly are much cheaper.

If the E50's were not so damn ugly, especially with that purify woofer and I am not a fan of the wood wave guide or the oak.  They look like they would fit better with mid century furniture.  I like a more modern look.  I actually look for Buchardt to offer a different cabinet or wood.  They do offer some customization of some of their speakers if you call or email them from what I have read.  Nothing for the E50 yet.  Too new. I would probably do all black without the dovetail joints.

[newzooreview]

The Steve Guttenberg review is very complimentary, but he mentions at the beginning that the E50 sounds best 15" from the wall. This seems like a design choice that makes them more friendly in smaller spaces, but it also might inhibit them from being brought farther out into the room to open up the soundstage.

I had the Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX bookshelf speakers in my system for the last year (before returning to my Spatial Audio M3 Sapphires recently), and the LX provided excellent, deep, articulate bass when three feet from the wall behind them. This also allowed them to present a deep and wide soundstage.

I have no idea if Guttenberg's comment means that bass is poor with the speakers out into the room. And placing them near the wall might be an advantage in your setup.

I was interested in the A10 last year, but it's a very inflexible system. You need the Primare streamer to get the best sound from them, and my experience over the last few months improving my digital source has led me to conclude that being locked in to an embedded DAC/amp inside of the loudspeaker is a bad idea. If the speakers do start to disappoint over time (e.g., lacking the midrange transparency of Magnepans) then you have to replace the whole setup.

I went to listen to the KEF LS60 active tower speakers at a dealer nearby, and they were devoid of imaging and detail in the midrange. I suspect the built-in electronics were holding them back, and since then I've lost interest in the all-in-one approach.

I would definitely write to Mads or Daniel at Buchardt. They are very responsive and might already have a modern decor cabinet option in the works. I think the E50 is the best looking speaker that Buchardt makes, but I'm a hobbit.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I would not like to be locked into any particular DAC.  I love the warmer tone of my Luxman DAC.  I like a particular sound, not the most accurate but is non fatiguing and pleasing to be able to listen for 3 hours straight.

I have been planning on writing Buchardt about the cabinets but a different cabinet will change the tone.  The natural wood has its own resonances that contributes to the E50's sound.  I did see a picture on the Steve Hoffman forum of a pair of black E50's without the Dovetail joints and the all black, tones down the overall look of the speaker and the ugly woofer and wave guide with the tiny tweeter in the middle.  It looks so odd.

Placing the speakers 2 to 2.5 feet from the front wall seems ideal for a mid sized room.  Plus, I will have dual subs.  I also like the fact that they have a little 50hz bump in the bass region, kind of like my Magnepan 1.6's have.

The Arendal 1528 bookshelfs are on my list but they sound completely different.  More neutral, 8" woofer but they weigh 66 pounds each due to 1.5" thick HDF.  Too heavy for my wife to move around if needed.

[WGH]

We will probably end up in a smaller house or upscale apartment.  So I want to buy a bookshelf in the $4K to 5K range that plays well at low volumes and has room filling sound which is a must.

I will probably be driving them with a tube integrated of 50 to 100 wpc.

Since you have time to research, try to listen to a Fritz speaker, I'm a big fan. His speakers are very tube friendly and will easily fill up a room. I visited Fritz, who lives outside of San Francisco, and listened to the Carrera bookshelf speakers, they were close to the front wall and still sounded excellent. I asked Fritz if there was a sub tucked away and he said no, I was impressed. Fritz loaned me a pair of Carbon 7's so our audio club could have a listen, everyone loved them. I wanted the Carrera's as the loaner pair but I couldn't pry them away from Fritz.
https://www.fritzspeakers.com/sound.asp

The Carbon 7's sounded great in Mick's small room with a Line Magnetic tube amp.




You need a road trip to do some whale watching in Monterey Bay then drive up the coast to see Fritz.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

WGH, thanks for the tip on the Fritz speakers, I will certainly check them out. 

I have been whale watching in SCal before.  We had a 60-70 foot Blue Whale and its calf come right up to our boat.  They are simply amazing and beautiful animals.  You could drop a Volkswagen Bettle down the blow hole it was so big.

[brj]

Certainly from a convenience stand point, powered speakers make a lot of sense.  I am also familiar with the other virtues of powered speakers.

Just in case it wasn't a case of casual language - note that not all powered speakers are active, where active means that the crossover is ahead of the amps and thus each driver has it's own amplification channel (and thus greater efficiency and no back-EMF through the crossover).  Having the speaker designer incorporate amps specifically matched to the speakers' drivers needs does alleviate much of the complexity associated with active systems and offers the potential for even higher levels of system optimization, though as you note, it does remove the choice of amplification from the end user.

I haven't heard the A10, but I will say that I'm personally unlikely to ever consider a passive system again - I find the dynamics of an active system too appealing.  But I can see a future in which I want to reduce the complexity, cost and space requirements of my current active system (utilizing an external active analog crossover and external amps of my choosing and a corresponding boat-load of cables) and go for an integrated active (controlled directivity) speaker like the A10 (or Kii, Dutch & Dutch, JBL, etc.).  Should I feel a need for warmth or tube-style harmonics after such a change, I'd consider adding it via the pre-amp or elsewhere and choose not to worry about the amp channels in the integrated active speaker (assuming I pick a well-implemented solution in the first place).  But personal preference rules all in this hobby and there is no wrong answer as long as you enjoy the result.  Good luck in your search!

(To WGH's comment, I heard Fritz's speakers at RMAF a few times - I don't trust the details of my audio memory that far back, but I do recall thinking they were finished beautifully and definitely punched well above their proverbial weight class.)

[WGH]

I heard Fritz's speakers at RMAF a few times - I don't trust the details of my audio memory that far back

I don't either, Fritz was pouring single malt whiskey and playing loud rock-and-roll during the after hours party.

[Randy]

These are superb speakers.https://unveiledaudio.com/products/borresen-x1?variant=49338224574776

[JLM]

I owned Buchardt A500SE's for over a year.  Similar to A10 but with a second Purifi mid/woofer rear mounted and using (3) 150 watt amps per speaker.  Added a Primare DAC/server.  The dynamics can't be beat.  Didn't mess with the multiple voicings. 

But the all around best speaker I've owned were JBL 708P's (horn compression tweeter, 8 inch woofer, (2) 250 watt amps per speaker).  Both sets of speakers were set up mid-field in a 8ft x 13ft x 21ft room, 5ft from the front wall.

Have heard Fritz's speakers and spoke with him years ago.  Very impressive but work best with big amps. 

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Those Borrensen speakers look nice but a little small.  We will probably end up with a medium sized room and I am used to big sound with my Magnepans so I want a bookshelf or small floor stander that puts out big sound without distortion and can play well at low  volumes.  That is the only thing holding me back from the Magnepan LRS+.  They need volume to sound their best.  Time is on my side but I keep thinking I should pull the trigger now on the E50's and return them if I don't like them, looks aside.  Some people really like the looks, others don't.  It is a polarizing look.  Walnut, Maple or Cherry would look way better with a black front baffle IMHO.  I wouldn't mind a painted finish either.

[Randy]

Those Borrensen speakers look nice but a little small.  We will probably end up with a medium sized room and I am used to big sound with my Magnepans so I want a bookshelf or small floor stander that puts out big sound without distortion and can play well at low  volumes.  That is the only thing holding me back from the Magnepan LRS+.  They need volume to sound their best.  Time is on my side but I keep thinking I should pull the trigger now on the E50's and return them if I don't like them, looks aside.  Some people really like the looks, others don't.  It is a polarizing look.  Walnut, Maple or Cherry would look way better with a black front baffle IMHO.  I wouldn't mind a painted finish either.

They can play loud with no compression or distortion.  I also have a pair of Pure Audio Project speakers, and prefer the Borrensens.

[SlushPuppy]

I struggled with this problem recently when I started downsizing for our retirement move. My last two systems were tube based and I loved the sound, but hated the size and complexity. I also seriously considered the Buchardt E50's and an Ayon integrated amplifier (Spirit V). Even though I didn't care for the looks of the E50's I considered them for their performance and awesome selection of parts.

On one of my many searches I found the Radiant Clarity 6.2 bookshelf speakers that looked really promising and come from a legend in the industry (Peter Lyngdorf). In the end the specs chased me away. 85dB sensitivity was just too low for the Ayon I wanted. So, I kept looking.

I already had GoldenEar towers and loved the AMT tweeter, so I looked at the BRX and the specs were much more friendly. 88dB with a minimum recommended amplifier rating of 20w. It checked most of the boxes and is also John Atkinson's personal reference. Once again, I couldn't pull the trigger because of the looks.

Near the end of my journey, I remembered Legacy Audio and went to their website to check out their latest offerings. They have what I consider a great looking monitor called the Calibre. AMT tweeter and amazing specs (90.5dB / mid-30's bass). They also have an active version called the Calibre XD. I was so sure I was going to get the Ayon/Legacy combo that I deleted all the other contenders from my list and started researching cables and DACs....... and that's when it hit me. I was recreating the Frankenstein I was desperately trying to kill. When the lightbulb above my head finally came on, I knew the only choice I had, to avoid complexity and still have great performance, was to go active.

I nearly went with the Buchardt Anniversary 10's. In fact, I had them in my basket for about two months! It wasn't until I rewatched The Audiophile Junkie's Dutch & Dutch 8c videos that I knew my search was over. I had to sell the rest of my gear to make it work, but I pulled the trigger and I couldn't be happier. Just two large monitors and a NUC sized computer as a streamer/server. Oh, and they are designed to work near the back wall, so small room friendly. My wife is happy with the looks, which is a bonus.

I read this entire thread and know the 8c's are not in the range you're looking for. I just wanted to share what seems like a similar journey. I have heard the Buchardt Anniversary 10's and they are incredible, and the tunings they provide really allow you to tweak the sound. Knowing what I know now they would be at the top of my list in the $4K to 5K range.

Cheers!

Slush

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Thanks guys, you gave things to think about.

SlushPuppy,

The E50's are also about 85db sensitivity as are many bookshelfs that put out good bass.  I am not so sure that the Ayon Scorpio has enough power.  It is 55wpc in Pentode mode and less in Triode.  The Spirit V is 65 wpc in Pentode mode and less in triode.
I will probably look at the Spirit V.  I am also considering the Cary SLI-100 which is 100wpc.  The Thomas and Stereo TS-120se is another integrated that is 100wpc and 30wpc in class A.   I am sure that the Ayon sounds way better and  they are beautiful looking amps.  Or I keep my Pass amp and sell my BAT (it has 8 tubes but it sounds more SS than tube) and buy a tube preamp that has the full tube sound.  I should have bought a Don Sachs preamp when I had the chance.

My system is pretty simple.  The Pass and BATVk51se, Luxman DA-06 DAC, Gold Note PH-10 phono preaamp and a Pro-Ject Classic Evo TT.  Music server is a custom desktop that I personally built that I remote into via a laptop with windows remote desktop.  It all works flawlessly, knock on wood, LOL.  I will be hard pressed to sell my Pass X250 amp which sounds wonderful and is a beast at 500 wpc. It is the best piece of gear that I have bought.

[WGH]

The E50's are also about 85db sensitivity as are many bookshelfs that put out good bass.  I am not so sure that the Ayon Scorpio has enough power.  It is 55wpc in Pentode mode and less in Triode.  The Spirit V is 65 wpc in Pentode mode and less in triode.

I was curious what amps were used during our Tucson based Fritz Carbon 7 tour. Fritz speakers are very tube friendly and easy to drive and at no time did anyone in our group think "we're gonna need a bigger amp." The Carbon 7 sensitivity is 88dB, the Carerra is 87 dB.

Pass XA25 - 25 watts per channel



Kevin Carter (K&K Audio) mono amps - 30 watts per channel





Line Magnetic 218ia - 12 watts per channel
See photo above - the Carbon 7s were alive and rocking


Fritz said the flea powered tube amp sounded good too although I didn't get to hear it, we listened to the Buchardt i150 integrated amplifier with 150 Class D watts per channel which didn't sound like Class D.

Fritz at home


Flea powered tube amp


Buchardt i150 integrated amp




Frank Van Alstine wrote:
"I agree, Fritz speakers are an excellent match for the Ultravalve."
The Ultravalve has 35 watts per channel

[zybar]

I struggled with this problem recently when I started downsizing for our retirement move. My last two systems were tube based and I loved the sound, but hated the size and complexity. I also seriously considered the Buchardt E50's and an Ayon integrated amplifier (Spirit V). Even though I didn't care for the looks of the E50's I considered them for their performance and awesome selection of parts.

On one of my many searches I found the Radiant Clarity 6.2 bookshelf speakers that looked really promising and come from a legend in the industry (Peter Lyngdorf). In the end the specs chased me away. 85dB sensitivity was just too low for the Ayon I wanted. So, I kept looking.

I already had GoldenEar towers and loved the AMT tweeter, so I looked at the BRX and the specs were much more friendly. 88dB with a minimum recommended amplifier rating of 20w. It checked most of the boxes and is also John Atkinson's personal reference. Once again, I couldn't pull the trigger because of the looks.

Near the end of my journey, I remembered Legacy Audio and went to their website to check out their latest offerings. They have what I consider a great looking monitor called the Calibre. AMT tweeter and amazing specs (90.5dB / mid-30's bass). They also have an active version called the Calibre XD. I was so sure I was going to get the Ayon/Legacy combo that I deleted all the other contenders from my list and started researching cables and DACs....... and that's when it hit me. I was recreating the Frankenstein I was desperately trying to kill. When the lightbulb above my head finally came on, I knew the only choice I had, to avoid complexity and still have great performance, was to go active.

I nearly went with the Buchardt Anniversary 10's. In fact, I had them in my basket for about two months! It wasn't until I rewatched The Audiophile Junkie's Dutch & Dutch 8c videos that I knew my search was over. I had to sell the rest of my gear to make it work, but I pulled the trigger and I couldn't be happier. Just two large monitors and a NUC sized computer as a streamer/server. Oh, and they are designed to work near the back wall, so small room friendly. My wife is happy with the looks, which is a bonus.

I read this entire thread and know the 8c's are not in the range you're looking for. I just wanted to share what seems like a similar journey. I have heard the Buchardt Anniversary 10's and they are incredible, and the tunings they provide really allow you to tweak the sound. Knowing what I know now they would be at the top of my list in the $4K to 5K range.

Cheers!

Slush

Congrats on the 8C’s!

I’m beyond happy with mine.  👍🍺🎊🍾😎🤩😍🐐





George

[I.Greyhound Fan]

WGH, how was the bass output?  Was the sound stage huge, wide, deep?  Can they play loud without breaking up? Do they have excellent air and transparency and do the speakers disappear?  How is the detail as I certainly do not want less detail than my system now? I have read that the midrange is tonally rich, dose it lean a bit to the warmer side which I prefer?

Last question, how was the top end?  I am so sensitive to brightness and sibilance.  I worked very hard to get rid of any brightness in my system.  I read that they are supposed to be fabulous at low volumes and that is a must.  They also have to be able to fill a medium to large room, about 18'x18', 9 foot ceilings for now at least.

Sorry for all the questions but I like to research the crap out of gear before I buy, especially if I can't hear them first. I have only been burned once by a piece of Ifi gear that is just awful junk.

I am certainly intrigued by them.  They look great compared to the E50's.

I see different versions on his web site.  I will have to give him a call and see whats up with that.

Do you know how the Carrera BE's compare?  I see there is a Carbon 7 for about $1K more that uses the BE's tweeter.

Thanks for the insight.

[SlushPuppy]

Congrats on the 8C’s!

I’m beyond happy with mine.  👍🍺🎊🍾😎🤩😍🐐

George

Oh man, so am I. The only speaker I would trade them for is the larger model they are working on. I'm not kidding.


Cheers!

Dave

[JLM]

An audio friend recently heard the 8C's at Axpona and had a chance to talk with the designer.  He preferred the 8C's to the A10's stating that they sounded more like music and could listen to them indefinitely.  But as stated above the 8C's cost greatly exceed that of the A10's.