Understanding galvanically isolated USB input

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 1665 times.

usaman

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 30
Understanding galvanically isolated USB input
« on: 13 Apr 2025, 06:22 pm »
I need a good explanation of the DVA dig preamp DAC circuit that has a galvanic isolated USB.  I think that no matter how dirty the incoming signal is, it simply doesn't matter.  Regardless of a cheap USB cable, straight from a laptop, tablet or a crappy music server, the grundge is filtered out.  How far off am I ? Thanks for the education.

newzooreview

Re: Understanding galvanically isolated USB input
« Reply #1 on: 13 Apr 2025, 09:01 pm »
From an AI query on the topic:

"What galvanic isolation does eliminate: Power-related noise, ground loops, electrical interference that would travel through direct electrical connections between your source and DAC

What galvanic isolation doesn't address: Data-related timing issues (jitter) or digital signal integrity problems that exist in the bitstream itself before isolation

However, modern asynchronous USB audio implementations (like in the DVA) largely address timing concerns by having the DAC control the data flow using its own precision clock. This means incoming data clock timing issues from the source are largely mitigated regardless of the isolation."

"galvanic isolation isn't perfect. There's always a very small capacitance between the two sides of the isolation barrier that can allow very high frequencies to pass through. Additionally, isolation is only one component of good audio design - the overall implementation of the USB interface, quality of the DAC's internal clock, and the analog output stage all play significant roles in the final sound quality."

I used a USB cable directly from my Intel NUC acting as a Roon server to my Holo May KTE DAC which also has a galvanically isolated USB input. This was recommended by the US distributor. It sounded very good.

However, as I have experimented more with my digital source, I've found that everything matters. It's not hard for things to sound very good/enjoyable/adequate. But it is more difficult to extract the last 20-30% of improvement out of the system.

Magic bullets and immunity from problems don't exist in my experience. I'm sure Van Alstine is doing as well as anyone with galvanic isolation on the USB input, but it seems unlikely to me that the computer sending the analog square wave to the digital device is irrelevant.

usaman

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 30
Re: Understanding galvanically isolated USB input
« Reply #2 on: 13 Apr 2025, 09:28 pm »
Thanks.  If I'm reading this correctly, upgrading my USB cable is unnecessary?
Additionally, it seems there are no additional devices necessary to add in the chain to help clean the input.

newzooreview

Re: Understanding galvanically isolated USB input
« Reply #3 on: 13 Apr 2025, 11:44 pm »
No, I couldn't say one way or the other. Your computer could be so noisy that the signal going into the cable degrades the sound. The cable could pick up interference that effects the sound. What I'm saying, and others may disagree, is that galvanic isolation is not a panacea and does not provide immunity from the variety of mechanisms of degradation. It's just wishful thinking. However, you may achieve very good/acceptable sound by ignoring the noise in the computer or the quality of the cable.

The USB 2.0 digital audio standard is not error correcting. The information moves as an analog square wave, and if a packet is dropped it's interpolated. Moving data from a hard drive via USB uses a different protocol that is error correcting. Digital audio over USB not the same. The 0s and 1s do not exist until the USB receiver reconstructs them and assigns them a timing (in the case of asynchronous USB audio).

I would certainly try the inexpensive and least cumbersome approach, but I would not assume it's optimal without experimenting. Your preamp, amp, and speakers and how you listen to music will also make a difference. Not everyone notices the same things or is listening for the same things.

Rusty Jefferson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 977
Re: Understanding galvanically isolated USB input
« Reply #4 on: 14 Apr 2025, 03:09 am »
Thanks.  If I'm reading this correctly, upgrading my USB cable is unnecessary?
Additionally, it seems there are no additional devices necessary to add in the chain to help clean the input.
newzooreview is right, you'll need to experiment based on your goals with the system. Primary system in a dedicated treated room, or a desktop system in a spare bedroom, or something in-between. The more revealing the system the more things like power supplies or battery power, switches, SSDs, external clocks, fiber optical break, digital cables, etc can improve digital performance.

WGH

Re: Understanding galvanically isolated USB input
« Reply #5 on: 14 Apr 2025, 04:20 pm »
I think that no matter how dirty the incoming signal is, it simply doesn't matter.  Regardless of a cheap USB cable, straight from a laptop, tablet or a crappy music server, the grundge is filtered out.

Are you using a laptop, tablet or crappy music server? I started out listening to ripped CDs using a laptop with a Hagerman USB-SPDIF converter into a DAC. DACs at that time did not have a USB input. In 2013 I built a low powered music server using a Jetway motherboard that included an Intel Atom processor and a Paul Pang Audio Grade USB card (discontinued). The sound was so much improved that I used the server until 2021 until it got old and died. I build another server with a JCAT USB card that sounds even better.

Each upgrade from the USB-SPDIF converter to the Paul Pang card to the JCAT card cleaned up the USB signal letting low level information like room echos emerge.

USB cables can and do sound different. Even a cheap USB cable can sound better than an expensive cable, not to mention a generic USB cable. The Schiit PYST is a renamed Straight Wire USB-Link and is only $25. I found it sounded better than many more expensive cables.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=179967.msg1925994#msg1925994

USB Cable Shootout
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=135255.msg1437240#msg1437240


But your question was about galvanically isolating USB and does different inputs make a difference? Definitely yes. I have the HoloAudio May KTE DAC and could clearly hear a difference between the Paul Pang USB card and the JCAT card. The JCAT is designed for audio while the 12 year older Paul Pang card was a standard USB card with a better clock with less jitter attached.

Even the differences between USB cables can be heard with a galvanically isolated USB . I was on the Hapa Audio cable tour and tried out the Hapa audio Haiku Aerogel USB cable.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=183297.msg1924471#msg1924471

AVASupport

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 28
Re: Understanding galvanically isolated USB input
« Reply #6 on: 14 Apr 2025, 05:30 pm »
From an AI query on the topic:

AI got it right.

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: Understanding galvanically isolated USB input
« Reply #7 on: 14 Apr 2025, 07:39 pm »
USB cables can and do sound different.  It is DAC dependent. My Luxman DAC is very sensitive to usb cable changes.  The best for me is the Wire World Starlight Platinum.  I have done several usb shoot outs.  With my DAC the cheap ones always came in last.  My son has a Chord Qutest DAC that is also sensitive to usb cable changes.  The best so far with that DAC is a $40 cable from Ghent Audio.

usaman

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 30
Re: Understanding galvanically isolated USB input
« Reply #8 on: 17 Apr 2025, 03:03 pm »
prior to me having franks new digital preamp DAC, i was going from either my laptop or qobuz through Audirvana to a Douk Audio Pro usb interface to my T7 to the FET Ultra 550.  I'm currently feeding the new DAC with my Audiolab 6000 CDT and or HDD media files and/or qobuz to audrivana directly into my 550 amp.  If I want to play my TT or tuner, I swap out the interconnects at the amps input.  The USB cable is a somewhat highly rated SKW usb-a to usb-b cable.  What i haven't figured out yet is why the digital music files from my HDD sound so much better than the streaming music.....maybe the bandwith or compression from qobuz but both media sources are routed through direct kernel processing of Audrivana.  Any thoughts on why this is, would be appreciated if anyone is hearing the difference i am experiencing.
 I was thinking of getting a usb-a to usb-b cable from Morrow as i have them as ICs and Tone arm to phono preamp and like them very much.  So yeah, Im going to try the cable improvement path.  perhaps the straight wire or blue jeans later on.

Rusty Jefferson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 977
Re: Understanding galvanically isolated USB input
« Reply #9 on: 18 Apr 2025, 03:22 am »
.....What i haven't figured out yet is why the digital music files from my HDD sound so much better than the streaming music.....
Technically, music coming from your local storage or from the interwebs are both streaming. :D  If your stored music is stored as .wav or uncompressed .flac format then hearing the difference isn't unusual. I believe the Qobuz stream is a compressed flac file. It requires more processing power to unfold the file on the fly as opposed to playing the uncompressed file. If your stored files are also compressed flac I have no idea why they sound different. How does your cd transport compare to the streaming, both local and from the interwebs?

whell

Re: Understanding galvanically isolated USB input
« Reply #10 on: 18 Apr 2025, 04:28 pm »
Technically, music coming from your local storage or from the interwebs are both streaming. :D  If your stored music is stored as .wav or uncompressed .flac format then hearing the difference isn't unusual. I believe the Qobuz stream is a compressed flac file. It requires more processing power to unfold the file on the fly as opposed to playing the uncompressed file. If your stored files are also compressed flac I have no idea why they sound different. How does your cd transport compare to the streaming, both local and from the interwebs?

Need to clarify what type of "compression" is being referred to here. 

1) Compression of the music file/container: Example, the WAV format is uncompressed. FLAC is "lossless compression": the FLAC file is smaller than the source uncompressed WAV file, but the compression method used does not remove any parts (bits) from the source file to achieve compression. The sound qualify of the FLAC and WAV files are the same.  (The "processing power to unfold the (FLAC) file" is really no longer an issue.  It might have been an issue with an old Pentium PC with 16 MEG of RAM, but more modern PC's will not be taxed decompressing compressed music files.) MP3 files use "lossy compression": the compression methodology discards elements (bits) from the source file to achieve a reduced file size. Its not uncommon for individuals to hear a difference between an uncompressed source file and a an MP3 file.

2) Compression as applied during the mixing/mastering process: this may account for different releases of the same recording sounding different.  For example, assume that Columbia Records decides to re-release a recording of "Joe's Band" (fictional band) from 1975.  In 1975, the original recording was saved to a "master tape" (or more than one master was saved for archival purposes).  That master tape may have been pulled from storage, played back and "re-recorded" using digital recording equipment.  So, when Columbia decides to rerelease the 1975 recording from Joe's Band, the mastering engineer might have access to only the digital re-recording.  If the engineer has access to both the analog master and the digital master, they could choose either based on the engineer's preference (or, possibly Columbia's marketing preferences - Columbia may want to market the re-release as "sourced from the original master tapes").  From there, the engineer applies their experience and preferences for achieving the best possible sound for the release.  It could include reducing or increasing one or more frequencies of the original.  It could also involve applying dynamic compression in the studio: a technique that reduces the distance in dbs between the loudest and quietest parts of the recording.  This compression technique has become more prevalent in recent years. 

3) Compression that may be applied by the streaming service.  This compression is applied to the music that is streamed from the music service based on the subscription level of the subscriber. Example: Deezer Free users experience compression at 64kbps or 128kbps, while Premium users stream at a higher quality with MP3 compression up to 320kbps. Deezer Hi-Fi subscribers receive lossless FLAC streaming at 16-bit, 1,411 kbps.

So, back to a locally stored music collection, and why the same recording might sound different when played back via your local server versus a music stream like Qobuz: I suspect the difference you're hearing is:

1) Unrelated to #1.  The lossless container would not impact the sound quality.  There are endless debates on this, and "audiophiles" who insist they can her a difference between uncompressed WAV and compressed FLAC.  I can only tell you what the science states, and my own experience  - there's no difference.

2) #2 could be a significant contributor to differences in perceived sound quality.  Quboz might be playing a "re-mastered" version of a recording.  If you own the original recording and listen to both the remastered and the original for comparison, it's quite possible that the recordings will sound a bit different.  Whether one version is "better" than another is in the "ear of the beholder". 

3) #3 could definitely be a contributor in some circumstances.  If comparing music streamed from Spotify to your current lossless music collection, hearing a difference based on the type/level of compression that the music service uses would not be surprising.  In the case of Qobuz, I suspect that this would not be a factor.

One last item, and this is a bit of a "rant": its difficult to attribute differences in sound quality when listening to streamed music.  Heck,. there are "audiophiles" who proclaim vast differences in perceived sound quality just by changing the interconnect cables between their CD player and their preamp, or the power cable between their amp and the electrical outlet.  Stop for a second to consider how the music that is played back from a service like Qobuz arrives to your speakers.  What does that signal path look like?  How many individual service providers exist between Qobuz and you? 

Consider a fictional streaming music service: X Music.  X Music is streaming service provider.  Their servers might be self-hosted, or they might (#1) outsource their server capability to another service provider to host their IT infrastructure.  There may be another service provider (#2) that connects that host to the internet.  That signal may then travel to another server farm that (#3) that works with your ISP (#4) from whom you purchase your internet service.  Your ISP introduces a couple more variables (#5): is your internet signal transmitted via fiber optic or coaxial cable?  Does distance (#6) between your ISP's server hub and the ISP's connection to your home play a role in signal quality.  Or (#7) are you an early adopter of home internet via 5G cellular connection?  Did your ISP provide you with a high quality router (#8)?   Is the connection from the router to your streamer and/or DAC (#9) thoroughly galvanically isolated?

Given all the roads that X Music's signal must travel, and all the hoops that signal must jump through, to get to your speakers, is it reasonable to assume that no degradation in sound quality is possible? Compare that assumption to the folks that insist that changing an electrical cable in their system made audible improvements, and I suspect you get my meaning. 
« Last Edit: 18 Apr 2025, 06:17 pm by whell »

Rusty Jefferson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 977
Re: Understanding galvanically isolated USB input
« Reply #11 on: 18 Apr 2025, 06:36 pm »
Need to clarify what type of "compression" is being referred to here......
Sorry, I thought it was obvious. FLAC compression. Unfolding, or returning the file to full size in real-time can degrade sound depending on bridge/renderer. I know some people are putting their streaming service selections in cache now and then playing. I haven't tried an a-b-x test on that yet so I can't comment.

usaman

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 30
Re: Understanding galvanically isolated USB input
« Reply #12 on: 19 Apr 2025, 01:00 am »
Boy oh boy,, i gotta be careful with what i ask for. 
Thank you for your input and how technically deep you delve into possible explanations of the difference's  i hear playing the different digital media sources.
Concerning the sound quality difference between my CDT and my stored media files (uncompressed FLAC), I did plan on finding the same recording from both sources to AB but have yet to do so. I have 2 tunes but want more of a variety to compare with each other.  very good suggestion there.
Pertaining to the servers; their type of file being requested and delivered and the circuitous path that signal travels to get to my speakers??  You burst my bubble on that one.  There are now, too many variables to understand how best to get the highest quality digital file to my ears.  I thought Qobuz,
tidal and the rest were the final determination but as you point out, nothing is for certain.  Qubuz was gifted to me by my son as a 6 month deal and Ive been disappointed at times that the sound quality has been hit or miss during the same listening sessions.  Some tunes have been atrocious while others being smooth and detailed.  Much to consider and i thank you all for your thoughtful responses.

whell

Re: Understanding galvanically isolated USB input
« Reply #13 on: 20 Apr 2025, 02:42 am »
Sorry, I thought it was obvious. FLAC compression. Unfolding, or returning the file to full size in real-time can degrade sound depending on bridge/renderer.

On older-than-dirt computers, maybe.  Any modern processor would handle this task without issue, and without sonic compromise.

WGH

Re: Understanding galvanically isolated USB input
« Reply #14 on: 20 Apr 2025, 05:39 pm »
Unfolding, or returning the file to full size in real-time can degrade sound depending on bridge/renderer.

Most, if not all music players are automatically a memory player. At one time JRiver had a check box to enable memory play but now it is automatic.

My music server is almost 4 years old and has an Intel i7-9700 processor. I don't have any load numbers when playing straight 44.1 kHz FLAC but when the same FLAC file is upsampled to 384 kHz the processor is just loafing with plenty of headroom




Upsampling even higher to DSD256 is still not maxing out the processor but close at 43.3 watts and the temperature is higher because the music server is fanless and silent but still works beautifully with no bleeps or burps and sounds terrific.




I cannot hear a difference between flac and wav files. Flac files can have more tags and save a lot of space. A win - win.