Imaging and speakers that "disappear"

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simoon

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Re: Imaging and speakers that "disappear"
« Reply #60 on: 12 Feb 2025, 05:29 pm »
I have had very few problems over the years, for the most part, getting speakers to disappear. Depending on the speakers and room, of course.

The image and soundstage I am currently getting, in my relatively small, well treated room, can sometimes be a bit spooky.

I recently completed building a pair of Curt Campbell's and Jim Holtz' "Bordeaux" speakers, and besides their other attributes, i.e., very accurate mids, detailed and neutral highs, and tight, deep bass, they are imaging and soundstage champs.

Nothing sounds like it is coming from the speakers

The mids and tweeters are in a quasi open baffle config.

There are certain recordings, mostly classical, where the soundstage is so open and holographic, I can easily imagine myself getting off my listening chair, and stepping into the soundstage, and stealing the violin bow from the musicians.

The soundstage extends well beyond the outside edges of the speakers, very deep beyond the front edge, and very layered.

Not only do the speakers disappear, but often times, the boundaries of the room itself, disappears.

These are not mine, since I haven't finalized the finish yet, but they are otherwise the same.

Aurum Cantus AST2560 AMT
Accuton C158
Dayton RS225-8

Crossover are all Clarity Caps CSA level, Solen "perfect lay" inductors, copper wire wound resistors. All internal wiring is silver Ohno Continuous Cast.



tomlinmgt

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Re: Imaging and speakers that "disappear"
« Reply #61 on: 12 Feb 2025, 05:51 pm »

Nothing sounds like it is coming from the speakers

Is that the case with any and every track you play? That's really what my original query was about...speakers that totally disappear no matter what recording you play. Be it a live capture or multi track recording, they're totally and absolutely transparent all the time. I feel like it's probably impossible because some recordings may locate the sonic image panned to one speaker or the other or to both simultaneously.  :dunno:

Danny Richie

Re: Imaging and speakers that "disappear"
« Reply #62 on: 12 Feb 2025, 06:11 pm »
Quote
I don't spend a lot of time on the GR Research discussion forum, but I watch a lot of Danny's (and NRD Ron's) videos and the spirit in all of them is to get better sound and improve the hifi experience.

Thanks for watching the videos.

That new series that I am doing with Ron (NRD models) have just moved the bar when it comes to all those things you are asking about. I can't wait for everyone to hear them.

Rusty Jefferson

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Re: Imaging and speakers that "disappear"
« Reply #63 on: 12 Feb 2025, 06:53 pm »
Is that the case with any and every track you play? That's really what my original query was about...speakers that totally disappear no matter what recording you play. Be it a live capture or multi track recording, they're totally and absolutely transparent all the time. I feel like it's probably impossible because some recordings may locate the sonic image panned to one speaker or the other or to both simultaneously.  :dunno:
It is not possible for every recording ever made to be free of the speakers for just that reason, engineers placing voices, instruments, other sounds, into the left or right speaker. However, all other recordings, whether studio multi-track or live acoustic should be free of "sound stuck on the speakers".

tomlinmgt

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Re: Imaging and speakers that "disappear"
« Reply #64 on: 12 Feb 2025, 07:06 pm »
Thanks for watching the videos.

That new series that I am doing with Ron (NRD models) have just moved the bar when it comes to all those things you are asking about. I can't wait for everyone to hear them.

Thanks for the time and effort you put into them, Danny. Really enjoyed the recent Tech Talk videos on distortion. Cleared up a lot of things I've wondered or been uncertain about. The room stuff I have a handle on, but some of the speaker specific stuff like baffle/edge diffraction and time coherency adjustments made at the crossover vs time aligned drivers is stuff I've been needing to get better up to speed with.

Signed...another prior crotch rocket owner who walked away before their number came up.

tomlinmgt

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Re: Imaging and speakers that "disappear"
« Reply #65 on: 12 Feb 2025, 07:09 pm »
It is not possible for every recording ever made to be free of the speakers for just that reason, engineers placing voices, instruments, other sounds, into the left or right speaker. However, all other recordings, whether studio multi-track or live acoustic should be free of "sound stuck on the speakers".

Ok...I'll take your word for it because it sounds entirely plausible and, perhaps more important, will put my mind at ease! 

Tyson

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Re: Imaging and speakers that "disappear"
« Reply #66 on: 12 Feb 2025, 09:17 pm »
IME, to get the very best imaging/soundstage possible, you need a few things to get you to the top level.

1. A narrow baffle with rounded edges
2. Full OB on both mids and tweeters
3. No bigger than medium sized cabinets
4. Midrange drivers optimized for resolution and not for bass

I listen to a lot of live classical and chamber music and I want a system that gives me the best imaging and soundstaging and mimics the live acoustic space as much as possible.  The NX-Otica nails this because it really leans in to the 4 design choices above. 

jmimac351

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Re: Imaging and speakers that "disappear"
« Reply #67 on: 13 Feb 2025, 12:27 am »
...Intermission...

For those reading along with this trying to figure out "which way should I go?", know this... a lot of people prefer box speakers compared to OB.  Just because your room isn't a good fit for OB (pulling speakers way off the front wall) doesn't mean you can't have spectacular, world-class sound. 

The praises of Open Baffle speakers are mentioned a lot around here, as they should be, but for those flying a drone around and trying to learn from discussion... what really matters is what's best for your room and what you like. 

A trip to Iowa Park can accelerate your learning about what "you like".  Also, when you're really ready to buy... take a short video of your room and send it to Danny.  Walk him around the room and talk about what you like. 

I personally wish a narrow baffle, full range loudspeaker existed... in a box. 

You know... like an NX-Treme... IN A BOX.  An NX-Otica... IN A BOX.  A legit, tall, BIGLY... FULL RANGE speaker... not Old School... PhD. 

After all, front wall challenged people need luv too.     

Ahhh, what am I saying... nobody would buy an NX-Otica in a box.  Other companies sell thousands of 'em. 

Would would want something like this anyway...  8)


Zuman

Re: Imaging and speakers that "disappear"
« Reply #68 on: 13 Feb 2025, 02:01 am »
The best imaging I've ever heard from a "box" is from Von Schweikert's current line of speakers.  One of their most appealing features is that the sweet spot is several seats wide - everyone on a sofa gets good listening. No, we're not talking "affordable" here...

Early B.

Re: Imaging and speakers that "disappear"
« Reply #69 on: 13 Feb 2025, 02:39 am »
...Intermission...

For those reading along with this trying to figure out "which way should I go?", know this... a lot of people prefer box speakers compared to OB.  Just because your room isn't a good fit for OB (pulling speakers way off the front wall) doesn't mean you can't have spectacular, world-class sound. 

The praises of Open Baffle speakers are mentioned a lot around here, as they should be, but for those flying a drone around and trying to learn from discussion... what really matters is what's best for your room and what you like. 

IMO, well-designed box speakers can sound non-boxy, especially with tricks like rear-firing tweeters, horns, etc. I think the biggest impediment to an open sound is bass. Ninety-nine percent of the time, bass in a box will sound like it's in a box. OB servo bass is what you want if you have the space, money, and some DIY skills. Once you grab a pair of doubles or triples, then you only have to choose what sort of mids and highs you prefer.

 

tomlinmgt

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Re: Imaging and speakers that "disappear"
« Reply #70 on: 13 Feb 2025, 03:27 am »
The best imaging I've ever heard from a "box" is from Von Schweikert's current line of speakers.  One of their most appealing features is that the sweet spot is several seats wide - everyone on a sofa gets good listening. No, we're not talking "affordable" here...

I listened to the Ultra 55's at Southwest Audio Fest last year. They were the best sounding speakers I heard at the show.

VinceT

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Re: Imaging and speakers that "disappear"
« Reply #71 on: 13 Feb 2025, 04:50 am »
...

I personally wish a narrow baffle, full range loudspeaker existed... in a box. 

You know... like an NX-Treme... IN A BOX.  An NX-Otica... IN A BOX.  A legit, tall, BIGLY... FULL RANGE speaker...




Hmmmmm I think something like that has been done before


tomlinmgt

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Re: Imaging and speakers that "disappear"
« Reply #72 on: 13 Feb 2025, 06:14 am »

Hmmmmm I think something like that has been done before

Yeah...now why does that look kinda familiar?



mikela8

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Re: Imaging and speakers that "disappear"
« Reply #73 on: 13 Feb 2025, 07:29 am »
The biggest disappearing act that I have experienced has been with my Bacch4mac and my diy sealed Statements designed by Jim Holtz.  Tools "Chocolate Chip Trip" puts the drums clearly behind you as they circle the room.  Can't wait to try the B4M with the NX-Tremes that I am currently building.

Rusty Jefferson

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Re: Imaging and speakers that "disappear"
« Reply #74 on: 13 Feb 2025, 01:05 pm »
The biggest disappearing act that I have experienced has been with my Bacch4mac and my diy.....
Appreciate that but BACCH-SP and associated technologies are another conversation entirely. :D

tomlinmgt

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Re: Imaging and speakers that "disappear"
« Reply #75 on: 13 Feb 2025, 01:43 pm »
The biggest disappearing act that I have experienced has been with my Bacch4mac and my diy sealed Statements designed by Jim Holtz.  Tools "Chocolate Chip Trip" puts the drums clearly behind you as they circle the room.  Can't wait to try the B4M with the NX-Tremes that I am currently building.

I wasn't familiar with the Bacch unit so I looked it up.  Interesting stuff, but sort of a hifi equialent to botox and saline implants. But that technology with NX-Tremes will likely be able create an extrordinary experience.

Tyson

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Re: Imaging and speakers that "disappear"
« Reply #76 on: 13 Feb 2025, 05:09 pm »
Tom, have you tried the LS6’s with the tweeter on the outside.  You will probably get better imaging from them.

tomlinmgt

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Re: Imaging and speakers that "disappear"
« Reply #77 on: 13 Feb 2025, 06:12 pm »
Tom, have you tried the LS6’s with the tweeter on the outside.  You will probably get better imaging from them.

I have not. VinceT suggested tweeters to the outside, too. So next time I have them set up I'll definitely give it a try. Fact is, I haven't spent a lot of time with the LS6's since I got them last fall...and have done very little experimenting with speaker positioning, toe in, etc. But what I have heard so far has demonstrated some very strong attributes. If it can and does get better than what I've heard, I'll be absolutely thrilled.

tomlinmgt

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Re: Imaging and speakers that "disappear"
« Reply #78 on: 14 Feb 2025, 02:47 pm »
.

Joni Mitchell ...Blue Hotel Room. Where is the guitar located? That's right, far beyond the speaker boundaries because the engineer altered the phase making it possible, depending on your system, for the sound to appear to be coming from outside the speakers.

I listened to this last night through the Tekton Double Impacts. Located 6' from front wall, spaced 9' apart and listening spot about 11' from speakers with toe in so axis fired just beyond each shoulder, I didn't get the guitar image far beyond the speaker boundaries, but rather behind and a little bit outside of the speakers...near the front corners.  What I did find noteworthy are her multi-tracked vocals at around the 2:00 mark. They're portrayed at varying heights and depths, recessed in the sound stage with a much more ethereal texture (reverb) than the main vocal which is  more dry and focused and locked in, dead center about 5' high and well behind the front plane of the speakers and even with the guitar which is clearly far to her left and right. A great track for demonstrating sound stage height (I heard vocals up around 6' down to about 4') and depth (some sounded further away than the physical location of the wall, others were at the wall). And just a great tune on top of all that. I saved it to my favorites library. Thanks for sharing.

seikosha

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Re: Imaging and speakers that "disappear"
« Reply #79 on: 14 Feb 2025, 02:51 pm »
I listened to this last night through the Tekton Double Impacts. Located 6' from front wall, spaced 9' apart and listening spot about 11' from speakers with toe in so axis fired just beyond each shoulder, I didn't get the guitar image far beyond the speaker boundaries, but rather behind and a little bit outside of the speakers...near the front corners.  What I did find noteworthy are her multi-tracked vocals at around the 2:00 mark. They're portrayed at varying heights and depths, recessed in the sound stage with a much more ethereal texture (reverb) than the main vocal which is socially more dry and focused. A great track for demonstrating sound stage height (I heard vocals up around 6' down to about 4') and depth (some sounded further away than the physical location of the wall, others were at the wall). And just a great tune on top of all that. I saved it to my favorites library. Thanks for sharing.

There are different versions of this recording, and they’ll present different imaging.  If you want to compare apples to apples, you have to make sure you are listening to the same one.  But yes, that is a great Joni Mitchell album.