[John Casler]

Hi All,

I have just confirmed that VMPS has a FLAG flying even higher than the RM/x

It is the SPECIAL RIBBON EDITION OF THE VMPS SUPER TOWER III

Many of us have never seen, much less heard this model and I thought I should post a picture of it.

Just take a look at this baby (courtesy VMPS Europe)



It lists for $21,900 and should be arguably the Sonic Equal to most anything available at most any price.

And while I am not a DEQX expert, it is a 3 way system and can be ordered in "DIRECT DRIVE" configuration.

This would appear to be a match made in DSP heaven, in that it has a "ribbon neopanel line source" which means no rolling off or stuttering the far drivers, and the Tweeter is central to the array.

This has a MF and HF effect more like that of a "point source" with a line Source Bass system

This is a very special speaker.

More info to come.

[ekovalsky]

It's a great design, and I was very impressed when I heard it at Dynamic Sound a few years ago.  That version used the B&G planar instead of the neo panels.

Always looking to make things better   here is what I'd suggest for the Supertower IV -- since this is an old model in need of a refresh

1.  Add several more Raven R-2 tweeters per side to make a line array. Otherwise you need to find an adjustable chair with a head vise to keep you ears in the horizontal plane with the ribbon, which has minimal vertical dispersion.  Unlike the one in the RM/X, this one doesn't swivel.  I think Lucius got better sound in his system by using the planars as the tweeter and disabling the Raven, which is a shame because the Raven tweeters are wonderful.

2.  Scrap the internal and external crossovers and tri-amp with DEQX.  

3.  Replace the woofers with the 12" TC Sounds drivers, each in an individual compartment tuned to a different resonant frequency in an acoustic suspension alignment.

4.  Loose the PR.  The TC Sounds drivers are designed for low extension in sealed boxes, and the gentle natural roll off will allow EQ to 20hz or below in most rooms.

5.  Replace the neo panels with something that moves pistonically and can move adequate air below 400hz.  And preferably with drivers that don't have to be fixed/modified to function properly.  Maybe the new B&G planars will live up to the promise ?  No planar will have the flat frequency response of cones or electrostats, but the DEQX can take care of that.

6.  Have Dorne build the cabinets.  Figure at least 400 lbs per side.

How much would these babies cost ?

[Brian Cheney]

No one has ever heard the Neo version of this speaker.  I am now making one as an upgrade to the 1998 version of the system for an owner who wants better than the 75" BG panel.

To address Eric's concerns:

1. The electronic crossover is now digital
2. I would never use as poor a driver as a TC Sounds in my speakers, that's why I make my own.  I recently measured one such, rolloff started at 50Hz!  If you're referring to the metal cone woofers, they ring like church bells.  Shame on you for even suggesting!  The tunable PR makes for a much better bass system than any sealed design.
3. The single R2 works very well and is much better in the vertical plane than you thinik.
4. I prefer the sound of 6dB analog xovers in the mid and treble.
5. Dorne made these cabinets with a synthetic granite as the core, with heavy bracing.  I can barely move them.
$21,900pr for now and they put those $126,000 jobbies to shame!!

[wshuff]

Are the Neos sealed or do you still use the sawtooth foam behind them like with the pair I saw at Dynamic Sound?

[Brian Cheney]

The neo backwave radiates into a sawtooth foam damper as in the earlier version.

[ekovalsky]

No one has ever heard the Neo version of this speaker.  I am now making one as an upgrade to the 1998 version of the system for an owner who wants better than the 75" BG panel.

To address Eric's concerns:

1. The electronic crossover is now digital
2. I would never use as poor a driver as a TC Sounds in my speakers, that's why I make my own.  I recently measured one such, rolloff started at 50Hz!  If you're referring to the metal cone woofers, they ring like church bells.  Shame on you for even sugges ...

Big B, I bet the upgraded ST3's will be awesome.  The cabinets must be very impressive.  

The TC Sounds TC2+ models well in sealed boxes.  I know you are going to say that modeling doesn't  always equal real world performance, and you are correct about that.  But I know several people who get awesome bass out of the 10" version of that driver, confirmed by in-room measurements.  

You may be right  correct about the low order crossovers.  The Alons do measure a dip around the 3500hz mid-tweeter crossover related to cancellation from the low order slopes Carl uses.  I tried using a high slope DSP filter instead (bypassing the external passive box) and also tried to fill in the dip with room correction.  Both resulted in detrimental changes to the sound.  This may be an example of the ear working differently than a microphone...  needless to say I'm leaving the factory crossover as is.  I opened it up and it is not a simple affair.  But the parts quality is superb and it seems to be work very well.

The magnesium woofers in the Alons (acoustic suspension, critically damped) are superb.  The bass of the main channels alone is better than the RM/X -- faster and more tuneful, with only a few hz less extension.  The crossover perfectly integrates the bass drivers with the Alnico midrange cones.  Except for the dip around the mid-tweeter crossover, this system measures flat within a few dB from 100hz to 20khz in-room.  Below 100hz room resonances are present, of course, but they can be fixed with room correction or parametric EQ.  Right now the best sound is without any correction and two narrow parEQ bands to remove the bass nodes.  That the speaker sounds better without correction than with is a true sign of a superior design, in my opinion.

The sub towers I can only describe as awesome -- effortless and with unlimited power, thanks to a 99dB/2.83v sensitivity.  Impedance is only 2 ohm nominal, so they will be even better when I replace the TacT S2150 currently driving them with a more appropriate amp like Krell, Ampzilla, etc.  I was also thinking about the Nuforce but it seems some having been either blowing up or failing...  The Belles 350A is also supposed to be a great bass amp.

Even with the TacT, program material with lots of very deep bass flaps my clothes in the wind    With most music, I cannot hear the bass towers at all, they just give a stronger foundation to the main channels.  The TacT makes integration of the bass towers with the mains very simple, though some tricks have to be used for proper time/phase alignment.

Too bad I don't live in the bay area, I would much enjoy a shootout between the Alons and your latest ST3.  The Alons are definitely not worth $126k, but at about a quarter that I'm very pleased.  So is my wife, who has a true golden ear even though she doesn't spend much time listening  

[Brian Cheney]

Eric, you're an inspiration.  Thanks to you I have decided to  establish myself as an in-home radiologist.

I got a great deal on used, portable Xray equipment.  Don't know much about the previous owner but he must be some kinda  wimp.  First thing I replaced his radiation source with something much stronger (available online from www.gammaraysRus.com), changed the aperture so that everybody in the room gets a full, equal dose, and glommed on to some really fine (but slow) film that requires a 90 sec exposure but has really low distortion and ultra high resolution.

I showed all this new gear to my chainsmoking 70 year old retiree neighbor who has now become my first test subject.  Darned if I didn't find a shadow right where his left lung might be if I knew where to look.  A med student friend of mine who knows a guy who once assisted in an OR has agreed to take the lung out as a DIY project right in my garage.  My neighbor is convinced my diagnosis is  right ever since he started reading my copy of "Xrays for Dummies" which I also purchased online along with the machinery and a mailorder MD.

I know you're in there rooting for me and guarantee you'll be the first to know how this project turns out!

[ekovalsky]

   

Very funny.  Thanks for making me laugh towards the end of my 9pm call shift.

After the lung surgery, you should consider doing a bifrontal lobotomy on yourself.  It will chill you out a lot !  And its pretty easy to do --  I suggest renting the fine movie "Dr. Giggles" to get some pointers on operating on yourself, since your mailorder MD schooling probably missed teaching those special skills.

PS -- don't let that lung go to waste!  saute over the heat of a class A power amp, then serve with fava beans and a fine chianti while enjoying some lovely music over VMPS speakers  

[ctviggen]

I don't know about a line array of tweeters.  According to my ETF program, my RM40 produces pretty flat high frequencies at the listening position out past 20kHz, and that's for a single speaker (I can only test single speakers right now).  Plus, have you heard what 17kHz and above sound like?  ETF produces tones at any frequency, and I've been using the tones to adjust the pots on the RM40s.  A 17kHz tone is pretty hard to hear.  When I do this again, I'll test some higher tones (say 18-20kHz) to see if I can even hear them.  

I guess if you're worried about vertical dispersion, another tweeter might help.  In my case, I don't find that I need any more vertical dispersion.

[Brian Cheney]

I really liked "Dr Giggles".

I may have a few technical questions for you before or during the procedure.  OK to call or email after midnite?

[wshuff]

Brian,

You say that nobody has ever heard the Neo version of this speaker.  Is that because the picture is only of a non-working mockup, or did you just mean that the speaker is very rare.  If the latter, then you must have heard the speaker.  I'd love to hear how it compares to the other Neo speakers, particularly the RM/X and RM40.

[Brian Cheney]

The picture of the ST3 on the vmpseurope website is an artful fake made up by Dubravko Novosel.  I have the only working sample of the Neo version and it outperforms everything I've heard.  Heavy and expensive, though.

[ctviggen]

For the price of the ST3, you could get RMxs, plus an RM30C, plus whatever surround speakers (RM30C or the dipoles) you wanted.  Plus maybe some Largers.  And maybe an amp to drive the Largers (I haven't actually calculated these prices).  For me, being that I have a combination 2-channel/HT system, this would be a no brainer.  For others who are into 2-channel, maybe they'd go the other way.

[WerTicus]

accuton or also known as theil and partner ceramic drivers have pistonic movement... they are like eggshells and are incredibly light

how about them?  perfect match to a raven ribbon too.

hey thats what im running at this point in time!

[Brian Cheney]

80% of the moving mass of a cone dynamic driver is voicecoil and former, you don't save a lot with a light diaphragm.  Ceramic is not particularly light in any case and its self-damping and noise are both poor.  Planars do not move pistonically, but their FR and THD (in push-pull configurations) are no better or worse than the best dynamics.  They do have an advantage in moving mass of about 15 to 40 to 1, which translates into lower inertia and better tracking of the signal.  Listen and decide for yourself.

[WerTicus]

I did listen - these speaker have the best mid range I have ever heard.

better than apogee, better than orions, better than martin logan, better than  ummm bose  

dont think i have listened to anything else worth a mention.

of course you have to be careful not to drop the driver

like i said - EGG SHELL thick. (its thinner actually)


i would looove to hear the rmx or rm40 or 30 if there was somewhere to do this in australia.

[ekovalsky]

Werticus,

Looks like you found a way of further decreasing the mass of the diaphgram!  Talk about cone breakup  

In a few months time there will be an RM/X in Australia (Melbourne area I believe).  Maybe ARAM will have you over for a listen.  I think a VMPS dealership may also be getting set up Down Under but am not sure.

[James Romeyn]

I really liked "Dr Giggles".

How about compared to the great cult epic "Eraserhead"?