[viggen]

So literally no one actually answered this mans question.... 

The answer is length. A component of cable impendence is length, not just width alone. Wires inside your speaker aren't nearly as long as the cable connecting it to the amp. (NX-Tremes  excluded).

i think most are saying resistance is but one component but try it for yourself and see if you hear a difference is what really matters.

[PumaCat]

People that don't hear differences in cables simply don't have resolving enough gear.  Or they haven't optimized speaker placement.  Or they haven't properly treated their room.  Once you do these things, differences are obvious.

Agreed, good points. The other key "components" for a tonally accurate, resolving and quiet system is quality power distribution and ground-plane noise reduction. The acoustics of the room, though, really is one of the biggest factors, as you have accurately stated.

[Tyson]

Agreed, good points. The other key "components" for a tonally accurate, resolving and quiet system is quality power distribution and ground-plane noise reduction. The acoustics of the room, though, really is one of the biggest factors, as you have accurately stated.

Can you talk more about quality power distribution and ground plane noise reduction?  I now have high efficiency speakers (98db) and noise is a bigger issue than in the past.

[Mariusz Uszynski]

People that don't hear differences in cables simply don't have resolving enough gear.  Or they haven't optimized speaker placement.  Or they haven't properly treated their room.  Once you do these things, differences are obvious.



Tyson is right about adding "audio ingredients" like room treatment, proper speaker placement, power conditioner, power cords, speaker cables, component isolators.It all helps and you can hear the difference at the end.

Even properly tuned hearing aid helps,

[PumaCat]

Think of it like driving a car in traffic headed to a drag strip. To get where you're going a long distance away quickly and safely, you need a multi-lane split freeway (24 strand eff 8ga) but when you reach the drag strip, there's a specific lane for each car and no traffic to compete with (crossover wiring). Don't make the drag strip lanes too narrow (tonearm wire would be gross) but they don't need to be an 8ga airport runway.

Someone explained it to me that way a while back and it seemed to click.

There is someone on this forum that did wire their NX-Otica with the B16 or B24 wire and it looked like a Tim Burton film set.

That's an accurate and descriptive analogy. I'll just add that for the internal wiring for the crossover, while the gauge does not play as critical role as it does for speaker cables, the quality of the conductor and the insulation (the dielectric) for the internal crossover wiring all play an important role in audio quality. And Danny has made this point many times in his videos when examining speakers that are sent in for upgrades and improvements.

Another point as that many folks appear not to understand: the signal is NOT like water flowing through a hose. That is not what is going on with respect to electromagnetic signal transduction.

The signal is ACTUALLY an 3-dimensional electromagnetic wave that propogates along the conductor.

As such, this electromagnetic signal is susceptible to the influence of noise, e.g. the interaction that can occur between the conductor and the dielectric (e.g. the wire's insulation).

This is why Danny continually emphasizes in his videos the importance of the quality and type of material used for the conductors and insulator for speaker cables, and the crossover's and speaker's internal wiring.

[PumaCat]

Can you talk more about quality power distribution and ground plane noise reduction?  I now have high efficiency speakers (98db) and noise is a bigger issue than in the past.

Sure. I posted the link to this article above, but as a starting point for you, please read this article by Shunyata Research founder, Caelin Gabriel, posted at Galen Carol Audio: https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/why-power-cables-make-a-difference/

In the meantime, I'll dig up a video of an interview by Robert Harley of The Absolute Sound with Caelin Gabriel on the importance of Ground-Plane Noise Reduction for you and post it for your reference. Cheers.

[Tyson]

Sure. I posted the link to this article above, but as a starting point for you, please read this article by Shunyata Research founder, Caelin Gabriel, posted at Galen Carol Audio: https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/why-power-cables-make-a-difference/

In the meantime, I'll dig up a video of an intereview by Robert Harley of The Absolute Sound with Caelin Gabriel on the importance of Ground-Plane Noise Reduction for you and post it for your reference. Cheers.

Thanks man!  See, this is why I love AC

[PumaCat]

Thanks man!  See, this is why I love AC

You are most welcome, good sir. I'll post some video links for you forthwith.

Cheers.

[PumaCat]

Thanks man!  See, this is why I love AC

Tyson, to start you off, here's some videos on using Shunyata Research noise-reduction power cords, power distributors, and GP-NR (ground-plane noise reduction) hubs for your reference.

A couple videos I made using an Entech power line noise analyzer and demonstrating with data, the AC mains noise reduction using an entry-level Shunyata NR (noise-reducing) power cord:

Video 1: https://youtu.be/g2SAj7aKXGo

Video 2: https://youtu.be/-X9gYpmtlxE

A video from Suncoast Audio also using the Entech power line noise analyzer: https://youtu.be/_DjHAUffrY4?si=j0lej0tr9HjsFdrg

A video made by Grammy award-winning record producer, Glenn Tabor of GAT3 on the Shunyata power distribution system used in his mastering studio. I should add that Glenn Tabor was so impressed with Shunyata's power distribution products that he hired a professional film crew to shoot and edit this video...at his own expense. https://youtu.be/132VMLNrxZE?si=wa3xcpgk41Ystzxp

Multiple Grammy Award-winning Greg Wells on using Shunyata Research products for record mastering and production: https://youtu.be/132VMLNrxZE?si=wa3xcpgk41Ystzxp

Here's a video documenting with data the use of Shunyata Research noise-reduction power cables for cardiac electrophysiology and cardiac diagnostic procedures? Yeah, we're literally talking helping to save lives here...
https://youtu.be/S0SNaZ-3_os?si=396YW2MeFSRmJ7bX

Demo with data of the noise-reduction obtained by using a single Shunyata noise-reducting power cord in an Electrophysiology lab:
https://youtu.be/pdYMzQ0fkdk?si=7yzTwHQBLUdbfIE4

Product introduction video for the Shunyata Altaira Ground-Plane noise reduction hubs: https://youtu.be/N3tkFSrmNLQ?si=w0BD-7WNMiD4EjAe

Caelin Cabriel discussing the Altaira Shunyata Altaira Ground-Plane noise reduction system at Florida Audio Expo:
https://youtu.be/WxxHRq6AySQ?si=J8Bm9PjqMp4eVX88

The Shunyata Altaira Ground-Plane Noise Reduction system in editor Robert Harley's (of The Absolute Sound) reference system:
https://youtu.be/RY_fCjvVb5U?si=RQa1NYQl9NfzgqQ-

You guys like science and data, right?  Well, now you have some data.

Cheers, gents.

[PumaCat]

You are most welcome, good sir. I'll post some video links for you forthwith.

Cheers.

Tyson, here's the video with The Absolute Sound editor Robert Harley interviewing Caelin Gabriel about the Shunyata Research Altaira GP-NR system that I referred to above. Cheers.

https://youtu.be/wW2qoI12trs?si=2_cta8qwC0mu0Ua6

[PumaCat]

There's been discussion in the thread about the Iconoclast line of audio cables developed by engineer Galen Gareis of Belden Cable.

For the gang's reference, here's some foundational engineering articles on cable design and theory by Galen that I've found to be excellent. They provide very useful background and info on cable design.
 
Link here: https://www.iconoclastcable.com/story/design.htm

Click on each title in the left-most column (e.g. Time, RCA/XLR Design Brief, etc.) to bring up a web page with a white paper on the specific topic.

Cheers, gents.

[jmimac351]

I've removed the quotation marks. The use of quotation marks, or not, doesn’t change the facts of my work during my career in molecular biology, my scientific publications, one of which is referenced above, or the validity of my points about the relationship between audio, science, and engineering. 

Cheers.

That's historic work noted above, Stephen. Well done - and I mean that very sincerely.  In my other passion at the race track, it's really interesting the people you'll run into, their unique and special backgrounds.  I wonder if passionate things just draw more people like that to them.  Interesting.

I'm curious, what kind of speaker cables, cables in general, do you like?   

As for the gauge question... I've been running Danny's 16awg wire bare at the amp, and directly connected to the wires on the crossover... direct wired, eliminates a set of binding posts.  I have no problem, at all, creating very uncomfortable sound pressure levels in my large room.  And, it sounds awesome.  But, playing more...

Earlier in the week, I picked up a pair of pretty serious cables - a used pair of the new Shunyata Research Theta.  They are the line just under the Alpha line that has the HARP module in them (and retail for $6k).  Retail on the Theta is $2k, and I bought used.  We'll see.

[PumaCat]

That's historic work noted above, Stephen. Well done - and I mean that very sincerely.  In my other passion at the race track, it's really interesting the people you'll run into, their unique and special backgrounds.  I wonder if passionate things just draw more people like that to them.  Interesting.

Ha! That's way cool, because in my "spare time" I was also an accredited motorsports photojournalist for both Laguna Seca and Sonoma Raceways for several years (7 for Laguna and 16 for Sonoma)

Some examples of my PJ work...
Duel at Andretti Hairpin


Daytona Prototypes in Turn 6 at Laguna...


MotoGP rider Stefan Bradl at Turn 6 at Laguna Seca


MotoGP rider John Hopkins blasting up the front straight at Laguna...


 

I'm curious, what kind of speaker cables, cables in general, do you like?

 
I'm using Shunyata Research Alpha V2 speaker cables that use the HARP module built into them (that you referenced in your post). The HARP technology is really amazing. I know that Danny knows what HARP is and from his first-hand experience, what it will do, as well.

As for the gauge question... I've been running Danny's 16awg wire bare at the amp, and directly connected to the wires on the crossover... direct wired, eliminates a set of binding posts.  I have no problem, at all, creating very uncomfortable sound pressure levels in my large room.  And, it sounds awesome.  But, playing more...

Earlier in the week, I picked up a pair of pretty serious cables - a used pair of the new Shunyata Research Theta.  They are the line just under the Alpha line that has the HARP module in them (and retail for $6k).  Retail on the Theta is $2k, and I bought used.  We'll see.

Ha! That's so funny, because just today I placed an order for some of the new Shunyata Theta XLR interconnects. Also, Neil Gader published an excellent review of the new Theta cable line in this month's issue of The Absolute Sound (pp. 116, January 2025). He loved them, referred to them as "category-busting" and gave them his highest recommendation. So, I think you're going to really love yours, as well.

BTW, I also have a full loom of the new entry-level Shunyata Research Gamma line that I'm presently writing a review for, and they are very impressive, as well. If you have other secondary cables (e.g. Ethernet, clock, power cables, S/PDIF, etc.) that you may want to upgrade, the new Gamma line is a massive value proposition (where Value=Quality/Price).

In fact, I'm listening to some of them (PCs, ICs, and clock cable) as I write this. In a week or so, I'll install the Gamma SPs (speaker cables) and Gamma Ethernet cable between my music server computer and EtherREGEN. So far, I am really impressed, the new Gamma line is very "musically-engaging". 

Cheers and feel free to stay in touch.

Best regards,
–Stephen

[allensound]

I too love AudioCircle for more “involved” conversations rather than the constant fighting I’ve seen in “other” forums. 

I very much appreciate all the awesome replies to my original post. 

I’m not sure if something got lost in translation or not - but my original question was more or less how going from an 8 gauge wire to a 26 gauge wire wouldn’t lose a tremendous amount of current/energy.  I’m already convinced the quality and shape of the conductors matter

Thank you again everyone as I’m sure I’m going to be spending hours more filling in my knowledge gaps with all the references in previous replies.

A sincere thank you to all.

[rotarius]

I too love AudioCircle for more “involved” conversations rather than the constant fighting I’ve seen in “other” forums. 

I’m not sure if something got lost in translation or not - but my original question was more or less how going from an 8 gauge wire to a 26 gauge wire wouldn’t lose a tremendous amount of current/energy.  I’m already convinced the quality and shape of the conductors matter

You didn't get your answer from the Shunyata crowd did you?  The loss thru a crossover is far greater than anything caused by your speaker wire being 16 awg rather than 12 awg. How about the AWG of the aluminum voice coil in your speakers?  How dare they use AL?
P.S. Shunyata is the king of bs. That's all I will say in this thread. 
Cheers!

[jmimac351]

You didn't get your answer from the Shunyata crowd did you?  The loss thru a crossover is far greater than anything caused by your speaker wire being 16 awg rather than 12 awg. How about the AWG of the aluminum voice coil in your speakers?  How dare they use AL?
P.S. Shunyata is the king of bs. That's all I will say in this thread. 
Cheers!

You made great contributions to this thread.  I try to learn things from people who know more than me... sometimes it's what To Do, and sometimes the person provides an example of what Not To Do... or maybe they aren't even open to trying something new, which quite frankly bores me.   

As for his "answer", mine is is "try it"... the experience I provided is that getting hung up on "wire gauge" maybe isn't "the thing". 

As for me, I think "the thing", for much of all of "this audio stuff", is about doing things to not harm Timing, and to minimize any Resonances - as much as possible. 

My system still gives me goosebumps... every, single, time.  It does "the thing".  It's too bad so few will ever experience what I am in their own system, because they already know it all. 

[Early B.]

As for his "answer", mine is is "try it"... the experience I provided is that getting hung up on "wire gauge" maybe isn't "the thing". 

As for me, I think "the thing", for much of all of "this audio stuff", is about doing things to not harm Timing, and to minimize any Resonances - as much as possible. 

My system still gives me goosebumps... every, single, time.  It does "the thing".  It's too bad so few will ever experience what I am in their own system, because they already know it all.

Experimentation is what audiophiles do. By experimenting, you'll find that ignoring 95% of what people profess on audio forums is a healthy and liberating perspective.   

[PumaCat]

P.S. Shunyata is the king of bs. That's all I will say in this thread. 
Cheers!

You didn't get your answer from the Shunyata crowd did you?  The loss thru a crossover is far greater than anything caused by your speaker wire being 16 awg rather than 12 awg. How about the AWG of the aluminum voice coil in your speakers?  How dare they use AL?
P.S. Shunyata is the king of bs. That's all I will say in this thread. 
Cheers!

There are opinions and then there are....facts.

Lot of folks still think that an electrons are sub-atomic particles revolving around an atom's nucleus as originally described by the Bohr model. This is an...opinion.

The facts are...they're not. Electrons are not particles revolving around an atom's nucleus, like planets revolving around a star. They are a probabalistically-determined quantum wave-function.

Ĥψ=Eψ and ∇ x E = ∂B/∂t are facts regardless of the opinions of a sub-population of male Hominids living on a planet revolving around a star.

Shunyata Research products function and provide quality attributes based on a deep understanding of physics and quantum mechanics.

Cheers and Happy Holidays.

[PumaCat]

Experimentation is what audiophiles do. By experimenting, you'll find that ignoring 95% of what people profess on audio forums is a healthy and liberating perspective.

I agree. Regarding experimentation, when I added a REL sub to the Harbeth 30.2s as the main speakers in my 2-channel stereo system, I performed a DOE (Design of Experiments*) using the statistical analysis program, JMP, to determine the optimal settings of the subwoofer to integrate it into the overall system's frequency response.

I based the design goals for the DOE and the overall system's in-room response based on the Harman Curve:


I then performed a 2-Factor, 2-level DOE in JMP using both Sub Gain and Sub Crossover as the Control Factors. I  took the in-room measurements for the the 2 control factors at the 2 levels for the DOE using a NIST-traceable calibrated mic placed at the listening position and listening height.

Below is the ANOVA table and analysis of the DOE from JMP:
he in


The DOE model was way statistically significant with a p-value of 0.001, an R-Square of 0.9706, and an R-Sq Adjusted of 0.9486 with alpha=0.05. The only interactions were a slight interaction between Sub Gain and Sub Crossover which is quite close to being statistically significant, based on a p-value=0.051 for this interaction.

The DOE also showed an 3-dimensionally-defined response surface from an interaction between Sub Gain and XO at 155 Hz:


Shown here is the actual, in-room response measured for Right Harbeth speaker measured from the listening position & height before doing the DOE (shown in Blue) to integrate the REL sub, and after doing the DOE to determine the settings for the REL sub (shown in the Green trace). Note how the green trace emulates the Harman curve. I also took an analogous measurement for the L Harbeth speaker (not shown).



Shown here is the measured in-room response averaged for both the L/R Harbeths with the REL integrated into the system after doing the DOE to determine optimal control settings for the REL sub.



Don'tcha just love...statistics? 

*-Reference for Design of Experiments from ASQ (American Society for Quality): https://shorturl.at/vmLQQ

[jmimac351]

Experimentation is what audiophiles do. By experimenting, you'll find that ignoring 95% of what people profess on audio forums is a healthy and liberating perspective.

Yup.

When I got my Duette from Danny and had something balanced with great drivers, I LOVED the sound, and I have left them alone.  A friend who literally can afford to buy whatever he wants, whenever he wants... he uses Mogami interconnects. Some people use simple stuff because it is simple and is good (much to the chagrin of others who would like an opportunity to poke fun at other people for having fun with a hobby).  So, I tried them. I use the Mogami 2549 interconnects for a few different reasons, and they are great. 

This stuff sounds good, is simple, and it is cheap.  While that "wire stuff" stayed put... "I got my gear together."  My equipment is settled for likely a very long time.  I found what I liked, and I went for the best examples of it.

NOW... I have balanced speakers and great gear which I love... now is the time to start playing with cables, room treatments, etc.

I guess I could have played with the room sooner, but the room already sounds good, just playing with front wall. 

That's been my path so far.